Yet another bit question!

[Lovecat]

Sorry....:o

Murphy has been really acting up about taking the bit in his mouth and, when I dismount, he tries to rub the left side of his head against me (which he never did before) and he stands in his stable like a zombie until I take the bridle off, whereupon he opens his mouth wide and makes a kind of 'aaargh' shape (if that makes sense) like he's saying 'thank god that's off me!'. He also plays constantly with his bit, although since I took someone's advice and put it up one notch that has decreased a little.

The vet saw his teeth, rasped them and noted that there was a wolf tooth coming through, but didn't think it ought to be causing him problems. Well, his behaviour didn't get any better and he was actually turning around & around in the stable to try and avoid having his bridle put on him (given that he's such a good boy normally my gut feeling is that it must be causing him pain), plus whenever he eats anything he seems to drop half of it, so I asked the YO to recommend a dentist. She said she'd call him out for me, but last night (same problems still there!) when I asked she said she'd not heard from him and gave me his number to call direct.

Anyway... when I rang him this morning, i was halfway through explaining the problem when he said - 'hang on, this horse is Murphy? At Barnfield? I came and did him between Christmas and New Year!' Apparently he'd asked the YO's son to tell her/me he'd been...

So the wolf tooth has been removed and a few sharp edges smoothed down, plus his front teeth have been rounded a little. When I said that I hadn't realised he'd been done as he didn't appear to be any different, he suggested I try a different kind of bit.

So.... any suggestions?

The pic below is what he has at the moment, for those of you who can't see it (edit!) it's a full cheek snaffle with slightly curved bars. I bought it because it was what he was wearing when I tried him out.

BTW, I am totally ignorant about bits, and terms like 'french link', 'gag' 'mullen' and 'loose ring' mean nothing to me, so could you either explain in words of one syllable or else post up a piccy of your suggestions so that I know what I'm supposed to be looking for in the saddlery!

[Lucy J]

i have been unable to download the picture, but i know what the bit will look like. firstly, make sure the bit is not too wide and the bridle fits well.

see if you can borrow some bits, try a bit without cheeks, or try one slightly thinner/thicker, or made of a different material. if that doesn't wirk then perhaphs you could look at bits other than snaffles.

[Esther.D]

I am no expert on bits...but have you thought about trying the same bit but in a french link (double link in the middle) as it is milder - the nutcracker action of his present one may be upsetting him. Rupert is very fussy about bits and he likes his french link very much.

Also has he just started being like this (in which case I would suspect it is not the bit) or has he been like this since you have had him?

[katieB]

Thats a kimblewick bit, similar to an eggbutt snaffle but gives a bit more control with turning (someone correct me if im wrong, pretty rusty with bits!) The only thing I can think of that might be making it a bit uncomfortable is that they can have a sort of nutcracker action (where it meets in the middle) If he plays with the bit a lot then he might be catching his tongue or something. I ride Ellie in a French Link which has an extra piece in the middle to stop the nutcracker effect. Ellie plays with her bit a lot too and wasnt too impressed with a snaffle but seems to like the link better. I will try and find a pic for you

edit: its not a kimblewick its called a full cheek, sorry :o

[Mehitabel]

the bit you posted a pic of is called a cheeked snaffle. the loosering version, where the rings can turn round, is called a fulmer. pic here. (www.premiersaddlery.com/SiteImages/ FulmerSnaffle.jpg)

check round the corners of his mouth to see if anything is up there - if a cheeked snaffle is too narrow, it can cause the sking to get bunched up and squeeze in to the teeth.
so first off, check the bit is long enough that it isn't squeezing the corners of his mouth. you should be able to fit your little finger comfortably between the corner of his mouth and the upright bit of the cheek, on both sides at once.
if you can't then just get the same bit a size up, if he's otherwise happy in it.

that he only rubs the left side of his head says to me that something is sore there - perhaps ask your instructor to take a look and ensure you aren't hanging on the left rein?

[Esther.D]

Unless I am seeing a different pic to other people the bit in the original pic (and in my pic) are full cheek snaffles. The first is an ordinary eggbutt full cheek snaffle and the second a french link full cheek. The full cheek helps with steering, particularly with young horses but otherwise they are identical to a standard snaffle.

Oops Es and I cross-posted

[Lovecat]

Thanks, Lucy.

When I first brought him home I had to borrow tack til his bridle came in (had to order it, his head's massive!) and he went very well in what looked like the catalogue pic of a 'happy mouth' straight mouth dutch gag, but I only rode him twice in it so I don't know if it really suited him or if he'd have started playing up with that too....

The bit is definitely not too big for him, my concern was that it was too small, but I've been told by the YO that it's the right size for him.

His bridle is a Thorowgood synthetic full size, plain cavesson noseband. It does fit him (just! Again, YO has checked it for me), but do you think it's because it's synthetic that it might be hurting him? He does have rather sensitive skin, he gets rug rub quite easily... the last thing I want to do is cause him pain :(

Thanks for the advice, anyway, I'll see what I can borrow off the YO in the way of bits tonight and take it from there!:D

[Lovecat]

Oops, took me so long to write the reply that I missed all the other responses!:o

EstherD, he seemed fine the first time I put the *new* bridle & bit on, but all the times after that he was been increasingly reluctant to take it. He does take it, basically because he's such a good boy, but I get the distinct impression that he's unhappy with it.

Es, the wolf tooth was on his left hand side so I assumed that that was the cause. I have to admit :o that he didn't try and rub me the last two times I've got off him, but I assumed (d'oh! must stop doing that!) that it was because I'd been determined not to let him use me as a scratch post and I'd been saying "NO!" very firmly to him each time he tried it - I thought he'd finally got the message, but it's entirely possible the dentist had something to do with it...:o *shuffles off red-faced & mumbling...*

[Mehitabel]

yes, synthetic bridles can rub - especially if they're new as the edges can be a bit stiff and hard. can you borrow a leather one and see if it makes a difference?

if it only just fits - it might be pinching round his ears. how much clearance is there on the browband around the base of his ears?

[Lovecat]

Not a huge amount of clearance - about 1cm?

I was looking on the rideaway catalogue and I saw they have a 'build your own bridle' section with Extra Full Size headstalls, nosebands etc (leather) - I may have to invest in one...:(

[Mehitabel]

some horses have delicate ears - it might not be enough. alternatively - is he particualrly hairy round the ears? might be hair catching and tweaking, i have to be extra-careful of petal in winter when she is fluffy as it drives her up the wall. try borrowing a bigger/leather bridle or just browband first before investing though!

[Lovecat]

He is incredibly hairy around the ears!:D

He's a fluffy boy in general, although his front is clipped (turns into a little sweatball otherwise...)

I'll see if I can borrow back the bridle I first used on him (pinched from a school horse with a similar size head) and see how the two measure up tonight - thanks for the tip!

if that doesn't work I'll investigate the french link snaffle and see if it does any good - a slightly cheaper option!:p

[chev]

I'd definitely look at the bridle... Sometimes the only way to get a good fit is to buy the parts separately and make it up yourself. If a horse has a sore mouth it's more usual to find they hold onto the bit when you take the bridle off (not a hard and fast rule though!). Perhaps he just finds the synthetic bridle uncomfortable - in the same way that synthetic girths can make some horses itchy, sweaty or uncomfortable. Check the length of the browband too - if it's a bit short that could make him uncomfortable.

Good luck!

[Lovecat]

He's got one of those soppy ribbon browbands on the bridle - I did wonder if that was causing a problem when this first started to happen, but when I checked it against the one that the bridle came with, the original was actually shorter than the ribbon one... but it could still be too short - I'll measure up tonight and see what transpires!:D

Thanks to everyone for all the advice - really helpful!:D

[Lovecat]

Well, the other horse's bridle is slightly bigger on the browband but not by much.

I was lucky enough last night to grab hold of a lady at the yard who is the fountain of all knowledge(!) and she kindly dug out her spare bit collection to compare and contrast. She thinks that the bars on the bit I'm using are probably too thin and suggested a hollow-mouth, loose ring snaffle (pic attached, hopefully).

The text in the Rideaway catalogue says

"Similar to an ordinary loose ring, hollow mouth snaffle, but lighter in construction and with a fatter mouth giving a better baring surface to the tongue and bars. A very kind bit, that is light in the mouth and easy on the tongue owing to the chubbyness. The loose ring encourages mouthing. Ideal for the horse with a long mouth as it will have the room to accommodate the extra thickness, and for those with tender bars."

So I'm going to buy one on Saturday (sadly she didn't have one his size to lend me!) and take it from there.

BTW, if I do end up going down the leather bridle route, can anyone here recommend one for large-headed horses? His Thorowgood is a full size but it only just fits him. From online descriptions the Stubben 1000 is the only one that actually says its specially made for large-featured horses... can anyone who's bought one let me know if a full size one of these is bigger than a 'normal' full size or would I need to get an X-Full size for the Murphster?

Thanks, :D

[Lucy J]

just watch with loose ring snaffles that they don't pinch the skin at the side of the mouth.

alternatively you can put bit guards on...

[cvb]

lovecat

If he was in a happy mouth gag, is there some reason why you went for a snaffle with cheeks to start off with ?

what kind of jaw/mouth/tongue does he have. My personal favourite in bits is a loose ring french link - but thats just cos I happen to have had some good results with it on the horses I've had.

The 'simple', normal snaflle has one hinge in the middle. This has what is known as a 'nutcracker' action ie as you put pressure on the reins the hinge closes like a nutcracker might. Some horses don't like this much (even though its a relatively mild bit).

Generally speaking a thinner snaffle is more severe simply because it puts the same pressure over a smaller area BUT horses with fleshy mouths simply don't have room for fat snaffles so a skinny one is better.

Another generality - that a bit shape that follows the shape of the tongue/mouth is milder. So if you add an extra 'hinge' into the mouth piece it becomes more of a curve and is a little kinder. (The difference between french link and Dr Bristol is the angle of the middle link. These days a lot of the middle links are lozenges rather than flat plates so you don't need to worry about that as much).

Happy mouth bits tend to curve quite nicely without needing hinges (as metal ones do) so are quite kind bits.

The original happy mouth gag is likely to have been loose ring. So if you don't have any problems with brakes, you might consider a happy mouth loose ring snaffle ?

[Lovecat]

LucyJ - I've got some bit guards, so I'll put them on it, thanks for the tip!

cvb - thank you so much for that comprehensive explanation - just what I needed! :D

When I first rode Murphy at his last owners he went out in a full cheek snaffle. I asked her why this kind of bit and she said he was fairly unschooled and needed a bit of help with his steering (which was initially true, although I fear that was more down to my poor riding - not enough direction from my legs - than anything else:o ). Consequently when I bought my own tack, I got the same bit.

He didn't actually come with any tack, and so the happy mouth gag came from the school horse whose bridle I borrowed while waiting for my own bridle to arrive. I only rode him in it twice.

I'm ashamed to admit that I have no idea what sort of a mouth he has as I've never looked inside it - being completely ignorant about horse's mouths, I wouldn't know what I'm looking for. This was why I was quite miffed that the dentist had come already, as these were questions I planned to ask him at the time of the visit! He does have quite a long mouth from the outside, if that's any help....:o

What's the brakes issue with loose rings? At present I haven't experienced any braking problems with Murph (he doesn't like standing still, particularly when other horses are moving off, but he will do it, albeit in a fidgety way), but now you've got me worried....

[Mehitabel]

no braking issues with looserings -i imagine cvb was just saying it because you mentioned the gag.

[Lovecat]

Phew!:D

Yeah, the lady I spoke to last night at the yard said it would have no more or no less brakes than the bit I was currently using - but I'm still paranoid! Thanks for clearing that up!:D :D

Sometimes I think I'm too stupid to be allowed near a horse, let alone own one.....:o

[Lucy J]

i must admit, until i had a horse with problems in a bit i haven't had to know much about them, but now I'm having to learn fast!

[cvb]

just so you know - check competition rules if you do anything 'formal' as to whether you can keep your bit guards on or not.

Yes the brakes comment was relating to the gag - not the loose ring.

There's an excellent little book on bits called something like "A little Bit of Magic" or some such which explains all the types and actions.

[Lovecat]

Thanks once again, everyone - what would I do without NR?:D

cvb, it'll be many years before we do anything 'formal', but thanks for the tip!

[ladyrose]

Originally posted by cvb
lovecat
The 'simple', normal snaflle has one hinge in the middle. This has what is known as a 'nutcracker' action ie as you put pressure on the reins the hinge closes like a nutcracker might. Some horses don't like this much (even though its a relatively mild bit)
I'm planning on buying a John Patterson eggbutt snaffle - these are designed with the aim of reducing the nutcracker action.

[LindaAd]

I think that "Bit of Magic" book is published by one of the bit companies, one of the expensive. well-known ones, the one where the two halves work separately (sorry, can't remember the name at the moment...)

Lovecat, the stupid people are the ones who think they know everything; people like you who are finding out, you are the intelligent ones! No-one's born knowing everything.

About the bridle, I had one made by a local saddler for Barney, who's got an extra-wide forehead, but only a medium-long nose. I don't think it cost more than buying good quality bridle sections - it's worth finding out.

[cvb]

the "bit of magic" book I have was published via one of the magazines (Your Horse I think). But I know I've seen the logo on one of the websites too - kangeroo ?) try www.horsebit.com and you'll see what I mean.