Breeding responsibilities

[Tootsie4U]

Would you breed a two year old mare to a two year old stud?

Would you breed a twenty year old mare? Presumably as a first pregnancy?

Would you breed strictly for color and forget about other genetics you're passing along? Size, temperment, conformation, breed characteristics?

Why is it that Sire's get more publicity and acknowledgement than the Dam's do?

The more Im in this horse business, the less I like what I see. :(

[shandy84]

Not on my life would I breed an animal that old or that young.

I personally believe a mare should not be bred from before 5 when she has finished growing otherwise it can lead to malformations in the mare as she aims to support her foal and in doing so stunts her growth etc. Also a mare that old should be enjoying retirement not being bred from. 18 is the oldest I would breed from and that is if she is in a very good condition.

As for the sires I believe a male of 4 years is acceptable as he should have learned manners etc by then and 18 again is the oldest I beleive a stallion should be a stud as he would have earnt his retirement.

I'm less likely to be strict in regards to the stallions as it should make no real affect on growth health etc because they are not having to support offspring.

I would not breed for colour, what is the point, say if you breed two animals with poor conformation and end up with abnormalities in conformation of the offspring?

Why do you ask in particular?
What do you think about the ages?

[chev]

Don't get me started...

I have a big problem with Welsh breeding at the moment and you've covered some of the reasons right there. At the moment, anyone who owns a registered Welsh colt can have him licenced and breeding at the age of two. A licence simply means he's been assessed by a vet as sound - not that he's been assessed as a quality Welsh pony. Regardless of whether he has a proven show record (he certainly wouldn't have anything in the way of a performance record at two) this colt would then be allowed to stand at stud, and his offspring registered.

Add to that the fact that stallion registrations actually are close to, if not eceeding mare registrations at the moment and you see why I don't agree with this policy. Welshies already have a reputation for being a bit nutty, and there are hundreds of less than stunning specimens out there - why add to it by producing more and more stallions? Surely when there are sufficient numbers of colts to do this, we should then be looking at raising the standards even higher?

Other breed societies operate grading systems - it has been argued that because the Welsh have a closed stud book this wouldn't work. I don't agree. I believe that sires should have a proven performance record at the least before a licence is granted, whether that is ridden or in the show ring, and that equal emphasis should be placed on the mares.

Before deciding to put Lili to a stallion next year, I asked our vet's opinion. He thought it was a good idea - but also suggested that I take a good look at her pedigree first, and avoid stallions with very similar breeding. Lili is rising six. She's well conformed, has no faults, a temprament to die for and at the perfect age for a first foal - her growing is done and I know that she won't change into something else in the next couple of years.

A two year old is not mature. Early promise is just that - I don't believe stock should be bred from until you know exactly how it will turn out.

*stepsdownoffsoapbox*

[Mehitabel]

1) nope. i wouldn't breed a 2 year old filly because of the risk to her from not being fully grown. i wouldn't breed a 2 year old colt because i think a horse should have a proven good temerpament and hopefully a half decent competiiton record before breeding.

2) not as a maiden, no. 2 of our broodmares are knocking 20, and both in very good health - they've both been broodmares for 10 or more years, so there is less risk carrying on when they are older. one of them, we think this one might be her last - she is looking older than the other one. if she doesn't conceive first time next year then we won't keep trying - or if she has trouble with this foal. even though vet. technology makes it less risky, i think that is too old for a maiden mare.

3) hell no. i'm sure you've heard me rant about indiscriminate breeding often enough that i don't need to carry on!

4) because a sire can cover loads of mares, whereas a mare can only have one a year. and because the world is still a bit of a sexist place! we've been breeding for 9 years now, and the mares have consistently had more of an impact on the foals than the sires. our 2 mares have had foals more like them than like any of the sires we've used.

please remember it isn't all like that toots.

[shandy84]

Yeah I think you are right

Although i love my filly to pieces arab x hanovarian she has major conformation faults in her front legs, birth defects according to the vet. It's a tricky business. I know I had a nutty welsh cob on loan hated him he did not have a nice temperament.

You're right 6ish is a good age for a maiden mare. You must keep me posted and let me know who you intend to send her to.

[Tootsie4U]

What about breeding so that the foals scheduled to arrive in early March - when there's about two feet of snow on the ground? Im relatively nieve about breeding, but these sort of things just seem very wrong to me.

[shandy84]

My filly was dropped late December when we had an awful lot of snow poor baby, apparently it caused her to be a sickly foal.

Are you both in the breeding business?

[Tootsie4U]

I work at a Morgan breeding facility.

[Mehitabel]

wel, it's a bit different over here as the entire country grinds to a halt with 2 inches of snow, let alone 2 feet.

but racing studs do it - the 'official' birthday for a TB is the 1st january - so when they race at 2 (and i am not going to start on what i think of that!) a horse with 3 months extra growth is at an advantage. i am not keen on it in general - i like the babies to go out as early as possible and stay there.
we aim to have our babies born in april/may - we don't show as foals, or if we do, it's only the breed show at the end of august - so no pressure for them to be grown on early.
like so many things in the TB industry, it is more about money than equine welfare.

shandy - i used to run a new forest stud, and still ride for it although i don't work there full time any more.

[kelsey]

Not all breeds ignore the dams....for example, Trakehner foals are given names starting with the same first letter as the dam's name to keep track of the line through the dam's side.

My new horse was started lightly at four, bred and had her first foal at five, then put into dressage training (in Germany). This is quite common over there, apparently. She is now considered "performance-rated" (has had a healthy foal and won the requisite number of ribbons at rated shows). This is good to know if I decide to breed her later (she has quite nice old German bloodlines).

I think some breeders are breeding too much for quantity rather than quality, sort of like an equine "puppy mill". I guess they don't want to spend the money feeding or caring for an "unproductive" animal while waiting for it to mature.

[shandy84]

Tootsie-They're gorgeous what is their temperament like in general?

Es - cool where abouts is the NF stud? Any ideas for me I have a yealing NF filly and she's taken to bolting when you try to lead her anywhere, she's an angel with everything else. Her breeder has suggested using a halter on her? What do you think?

http://community.webshots.com/user/snowpatrol84
I've got pics of her and my 2yr old arab x hanovarian filly

Could you cast a prof eye both see what you think you can be negative I don't think my girls are perfect :-)

[Tootsie4U]

Lordy, Im no professional! Morgan's are the extent of my knowledge and thats limited :D But, I'll take a look in a moment anyway.

Kelsey, puppy mills - good analogy, thats what it seems like.

Morgans, too darned intelligent but a heart of gold if you've earned it. That intelligence can work for or against you so you've got to be careful!!!

[Mehitabel]

oh she's a cutie! i like the millersford ponies, i've known a fair few of them.
we are on the edge of the new forest, on the border between dorset and hampshire. pics of our bunch in my NR album. (http://groups.msn.com/nrphotos/esspictures.msnw) 'ruben' is our foundation stallion, 'petal' is my girl (i share her with the stud owner) and most of the other pics (flora, toby, dinky, sky) are the ones we've bred. 'haze' is a millersford - possibly a relative!

a pressure halter would probably work on your little one - how long have you had her? was she forest-bred and born? they aren't daft - and once they've figured out a trick works then you do need a bit of a short sharp shock sometimes!

have to say the nf people are doing well in promoting sensible breeding - our elite scheme is for performance for mares as well, and they also do broodmare grading. we haven't had ours done as they are both coming to the end of their breeding life, but our boys are graded and the next generation of broodmares will be.

[Tootsie4U]

The Trakhner registry is extremely restrictive, so I've heard and witenessed. Im glad, its an attirbute to the breed in my opinion.

My boss got her AMAZING trakhner as a result of him not getting into the stud registry because of some political issues. The horse is the epitomy of "standard" with a to die for personality and movement.

Heard Hanoverians are the same way. ???

[Tootsie4U]

Some very nice hock action in that chestnut. Do you have any profiles or conformation shots.

Shandy, oooh, I'll take her. Gorgeous head - does she have some Welsh in her?

[Harry Hobbes]

Tootsie,

What do horses do in the wild?

(Yes, it's a facetious question. But valid, nonetheless.)

Best regards,
Harry

[Tootsie4U]

Hmm, an answer to your question could go either way Harry, but knowing your sarcastic ways, I'd say, point taken.

Natural Selection.

[tubby]

Exactly natural selection means that weakling & horses with conformation that is in any way abnormal dies. No I don't want people to put horses down because they don't meet our standards, but it really infuriates me when people use substandard animals for breeding. Basically if you breed from poor stock you will get poor stock, I do feel that it would be a good idea if most colts were cut as foals if they are not needed for breeding. One poor quaility stallion can be responsible for a large quantity of inferior foals. I also feel that a two yr old is too young to breed as she is still growing herself, after all you wouldn't want your junior school daughter to have a baby.

[chev]

But, Harry, the fact that horses in the wild do that does not make it ideal within the world of domesticated breeding. Wild horses never have their teeth done, or their feet trimmed, either - which results in the premature deaths of many. Does that excuse owners of domesticated horses who neglect their charges?

We owe it to our horses to give them the highest level of care and consideration we can - albeit as naturally as we can. You reap what you sow - and if that means that by responsible breeding we have horses that live long, rewarding lives, then I believe we should take those responsibilities seriously. Better that than to compromise them simply because in a wild environment that compromise is part of life, surely?

[Mehitabel]

just as i was going to say chev i i am not convinced what happens in the wild is entirely relevant.
in the wild, their only concern is passing on their genes - not with the continued health of the mother. our vet once told me the average age for a wild new forest pony to live to is 6 - teeth and worms normally finish them off around them.

mares in the wild often get in foal at 18 months/2 years old, and then leach the nutrients out of their own bodies to give the foal the best start. doesn't matter if they're going to be dead in 3 years, and it's advantageous to the species for them to start as young as possible, as the lifespan is so much shorter, but that's not the aim of a stud.

[Tootsie4U]

Interesting.

Naturaly selection via stallion standards but I guess the object of the mares is the perseverance of the breed. Why would they be concerned with fusions of their backs/legs, etc. They dont bare weight in the wild anyway...

[shandy84]

I've always wondered what Morgans were like when I was younger I wanted to get one, now my dream horse is an old style Fresian.

Shandy apparently is 1/4 Arab x 3/4 Hanovarian you can have a look back on the site, I have just posted some baby pics of her see what you think. she's about 14.2hh at the mo and 2 1/2 yrs.

How do I get a conformation or profile sorry to be dumb.

They're all gorgeous especially Petal and Ruben very sweet, well built as well.

We got Bramble at the end of september this year and got Shandy last march, that's when the baby photos were taken that I've posted in my album she was forest born and bred, still thinks she's there sometimes

Where could I get a pressure halter for her? At the moment she is a shetland head sixe but only just, but still way too small for a pony?

You're all well lucky working with horses I have to study a law degree and that's boring

[shaka]

If I say anything I'll sound like an es echo cos she's got what I feel to a tee!:D
And if I try say anymore I'll start ranting.........................

[Tootsie4U]

profile/conformation is just a shot from the side - no horsey clothes on either. :D (in basic terms, that is what it is)

I can see the Hanoverian! They're my favorite, guess thats why I liked her so much.

I am a full time Environmentalist/Geologist. My horsey job is just for fun and a way to pay for my boy.

[Mehitabel]

exactly toots - we're selecting for different things, not just fitness for survival. that isbn't really an issue any more - they don't need to be particularly hardy, or able to withstand cold and rain, or thirst or hunger. we want them to be good at jumping or dressage, to move in a certain way, to have friendly temperaments and so on.

shandy - for a photo to tell about her conformation, you need one side on, stood on a flat surface and ideally in summer coat - i know i can't tell anything about petal's conformation under her winter woollies! she just looks like a bundle of dirty fluff with eyes.
afraid i don't know where you get pressure halters - maybe start a thread? i expect the problem will go as she gets better handled - you haven't had her long. but you still need to be safe when handling her until she gets her manners off to a fine art! you could try just a rope/white halter like we show in - those tighten round the head so will have more controlability than a headcollar.

alas i am not a fulltimer either! used to be for 7 years but it just didn't pay enough. i work in magazines now.

[Tootsie4U]

Ah! you got the job!?!?!

(Im allowed to ransack my own thread :P)

[Mehitabel]

not definitely yet - i meant more in a general (theoretical) way! :o ;)
they want me, so they say, but it's a new position so they have to get approval for it and so on and so forth. i'm still applying for other stuff - not counting any chickens...

[shandy84]

Hiya,

Thanks for that I'll have a go at getting a profile of her for you I'll let you know when you post it.

I forgot to mention that Shandy was suspected as being pregnant as a two year old very scary! Thankfully she was just having an odd growth spurt.

Good luck with the job ES hope it goes through ok, what Magazine is it?