What are you opinions on this bit

[joy70]

http://www.kmeliteproducts.co.uk/images/equine_horse_bits17.jpg
check out this bit - and let me know what you think guys

[katieB]

Whats it called? Dont think ive seen it before :confused:

[joy70]

not 100% sure - the website it was on called it a gag ?

[Casey76]

The website said it was a gag with rollers and a 'scrub board' (whatever one of those is?!)

[joy70]

just found this description at the bit bank!

A popular bit with a small amount of gag action. Smooth copper inlay mouthpiece keeps the horse mouth moist and soft. The three piece contacts the bars of the horses mouth at a more severe angle than the 2 piece equivalent. This gives added control, improved head carriage and better flexibility through the shoulders. The rings also act as pacifiers for nervous horses. The Scruboard lightens the horse's head and backs it of the bit. A good choice for showjumpers.

still non the wiser as to what scruboards are.

Thought it might be worth a try on Todd when his mouth is healed up! our local tack store have them at £18 bit cheaper than the £70 odd at bit bank :rolleyes:

[cvb]

Joy

Its basically a jointed curb bit. So it will have a lever action and work on poll as well as mouth. The rollers will work on the tongue. Plus it looks like its a sweet iron mouth piece (with copper inlay) - which I know you said Toddy didn't like !

The lever action will be more severe than the dutch gag you have used before - for two reasons - you can only attach the reins at the bottom of the curb shank, and the cheek piece is actually attached at the top of the shank above where the bit sits in the mouth and where a 'snaffle' rein might sit. (this increases the length of the lever which acts on the poll).

So I suspect he might curl up and back off it - though I could be wrong....(just based on what you've said before, difficult to say without having seen him).

Basic rule for curbs - the longer the shank, the more severe the action.

[joy70]

ahhh thanks cvb

the sweet iron i tried him in before was only a snaffle! sorry if i mislead you i probly meant to say he didn't like the snaffle bit, i think hes o.k. with sweet iron!

i can see it would probly be stronger than the dutch gag! but it thought it might mean i need to take less contact on him etc., and if it backs him off it, it might help me trying to persuade him not to lean or am i being incredibly niave now :o

[cvb]

it thought it might mean i need to take less contact on him etc., and if it backs him off it, it might help me trying to persuade him not to lean

How will he know to take less contact ? Only by it coming into action and him learning the hard way.

That may sound like a harsh comment so let me explain....

Western trainers often start their horses in a bitless bridle (specifically something called a bosal). The aim is to establish basic control and communication and then put a bit in the horse's mouth. The first bit will be a snaffle. Only when the horse is educated enough to have a soft mouth and accept the aids will they progress to a curb.

Classical riders actually follow a similar progression ie the horse is educated before it goes in a curb. The curb is used to use the lightest and most refined aids. And IMHO thats the right way to use a curb.

The bit you showed looks very like its actually a western bit. (Why do I say this ? Because there did not seem to be hooks for a curb chain. Western bits use a leather (or leather and chain) strap across the back (buckles on) rather than a hook-on chain. However, some "american" style bits are used in an english context even if they originated as western bits.)

So - is Toddy soft in his mouth, accepting all aids, in self-carriage, able to collect ? If so, then he is probably at a good stage to consider a curb of some form.

If not, then you are basically using the curb as a lever - a bit like a crowbar !

Also, in my experience, a horse that has curled up 'behind' a curb is really difficult to ride - because bascially you have zero contact. Not a lighter contact but nothing at all. Like have an engine running but no rudder :eek: If he curls, there is also a risk that he will do so without rounding his back - which could lead to back problems in the medium to long term.

I know that there are horses who go very well in curbs without going through the education process. Some ponies just go better in (for example) pelhams (and with roundings :eek:) regardless of what traditional wisdom might say.

But, jointed curbs can be very strong and have a complex action, so I would attach a LARGE health warning to it. You're the only one who can know whats going on with Toddy - but if you do go ahead, please be careful when you first use it. Try it in a safe environment where you can check out his reaction. If he has an extreme reaction, all hell could break lose. Remember he has to learn how to behave with a new bit as well as you learning how to ride in it. You don't want to go out on a hack and have him running backwards at speed, or going up and over on you :eek: !

By the way - I think that description's a bit odd - why would a 3 piece mouth contact the bars at a more severe angle than a 2 piece ?! This seems upside down.

[joy70]

aha

now i know what the scrub boards are - for those of you who are interested as i was! on this type of bit, the ones ive seen have 3 strips of copper on the bit, they are the scrub boards! :)

[showjumperchick]

hi joy, i just wanted to say that if you do try this bit, go for the £70 version, this is the proper original sweet iron version. the £17 one is one of a multitude of cheap imitation copies, which are not proper sweet iron, dont work and sometimes drop to pieces. just a warning.

[joy70]

showjumper chick

thanks for the warning - how exactly don't they work? :confused:

to be honest, i thought that i'd try the £17 one out and if it was o.k. i'd probly go for the £70 option! but to shell out £70 for something im not sure would work is a lot of pennies for me :( especially as Todd has this habit of going lovely in a bit for about 2-3 weeks maybe longer this time of year as i dont' get to ride as much! and then suddenly develops evasions to them! :rolleyes:

[showjumperchick]

basically on the cheap version, the copper scrub boards wont be as pronounced and thus wont have much effect, the copper rings in the middle are often uneven in shape and texture and so can cause pinching and the actual metal isnt sweet irion son it will rust and bend instead of oxidising properly. cant you borrow yhem at the bit bank and only pay if you want it???????????

[joy70]

bit bank charge you before you have the bits and then refund you if you don't want it - unfortunately im financially embarrassed and cannot really afford to pay out for that at the mo :o

[showjumperchick]

know how you feel!have you looked on ebay?might be one on there or does your instructor know anyone you could borrow off to test it?

[joy70]

ive not seen my instructor in ages! :o so i think as ive just been paid today i'll bite the bullet spend £17 on it, lets face it £17 i can cope with and if it works, then i'll have to wait for a month when he doesn't need shoes, wormers or my car needs servicing, then i might be able to buy the real mcoy ;)

[anuvb]

The only problem in doing that Joy is that if he doesn't like it, you wil never know whether it was the composition of the bit (ie almost sweet iron) or the type of bit. Almost sweet iron isn't going to have the same effect as sweet iron, and taking a short cut could cost you significantly more in the long run as you keep swapping from bit to the other. It's best to change one thing at a time, rather than all at once. And if you are going to make a comparison between sweet iron versus something else, then it's best to use the real thing and not a cheap alternative.

[cvb]

Joy

I know you are keen to find a solution for Toddy, but also that you've got to wait for his mouth to heal up before you can do much. If you tried out some of the existing suggestions (eg two reins with your existing dutch gag, or riding with a nose net, etc), wouldn't that give more time to (a) analyse the problem (b) come up with some options and (c) save some more money ?!

If you change bits rapidly, it will be difficult to tell which change had any effect - especially as you say - it takes 2-3 weeks for Toddy to settle down (or not) with a bit.

To summarise (if I remember rightly) you've tried

- happy mouth - and I think the mouthpiece chaffed ?
- sweet iron snaffle - but you think it was the bit he objected to not the sweet iron
- french link - the dutch gag you have, and he seemed ok with this

I'm not sure what style bits you've tried - other than the dutch gag with one rein ?

And you want a bit you can ride in with a running martingale (though you may so what happens if you take it off), preferably single rein, that won't cut Toddy's mouth but does give you some breaks, without him leaning and plunging his head down.

He's ok at speed, but gets quite excited before and afterwards and bounces, leans, and grabs his head down.

Did I get it right :D ? Can you fill in some of my gaps ?

I just really want to come up with a suggestion that won't involve you spending money on a bit that is quite severe but may not work (not only cos of possible effect on you and Toddy, but also cos it will be more difficult to sell if you need to later).

Can I persuade you to dedicate this weekend to trying out double reins and/or no martingale and/or nose net ? pleeeeeease ?

that would give you more information and me/use more time to come up with suggestions.

[joy70]

cvb

you are a lil treasure ;) yes i think you got it all right, and there are no gaps regards his behaviour i can fill in!

i will have a bash on Saturday, (providing his mouths o.k.! s'more brused that cut now) at trying him out in his gag with 2 reins and his nose net on, minus his running martingale! for this i will try a pootle round the village after a spell in the school

As for bits, yup happy mouth chaffed, sweet iron think it was just too mild for him and dutch gag french link variety,

in the past weve also used

hackamore - English - escapes me completeley
straight bar snaffles - takes a hold
American gags - too severe
Pelhams mullen mouth & ported - completely uncomfortable in them (did try 2 reins that time)
Myler - tucking head in at the mo
dutch gags - tried a waterford, on one rein
waterford snaffle - pants, ran thru it and leant on it!!!
slotted cheek kimblewick & curb = tucks behind!

does this give you any more help???? or have i made matters even worse now

[anuvb]

You say you've tried an american gag before - then that's what I'd call the bit that you have in the photo above. A variation on an american gag. Same kind of action, with the leverage on the poll only being limited by the mouth pice ring.

Does that help in your decision?

Also, there seems to be a theme that anything with poll action he leans on. Snaffle he takes a hold.

When you say you were uncomfortable in the pelham, was this you or Toddy?

[anuvb]

Ooh, and has he also got a thick tongue? If he's native sort you may find that partof the problem is that he doesn't have enough room in his mouth for certain mouth pieces. :)

[joy70]

ive not noticed his tongue is over thick :o

erm yes the bit in the pic is like an american gag, but the shanks are probably half the length, which is why i thought it was worth a go! in fact there probably somewhere around the length of the 2nd ring down on a dutch gag!

With the pelham, he kind of raised his head up and wouldn't take any contact when we were in the school, so i spose he would have been above the bit?

[cvb]

I thought you had a french link dutch gag ? I do own a waterford snaffle which I tried with my guy - because in theory they are not too severe. But I would worry that with a horse that opens it mouth, the bit will slide the the 'bobbles' on the bit will hurt the horses lips. Its in my collection but hasn't been used more than once or twice.

Ok - gut feeling is

mouthpiece needs to be something french link or similar. Straight bar or happy mouth are 'No's for him.

Curbs (with chain) look like being too strong. He'll tuck and curl - which means no control.

One thought - prompted by a comment on another thread - would be a hanging cheek or baucher snaffle (french link if poss). (they are variations on the same theme - but where the 'cheek' is attached to the ring is slightly different). I know Heather Moffett has had good results with this bit.

It might not give you enough brakes - eg the dutch gag is stronger.

Let us know how your trials go.

Depending on the weekends trials, the option of a jointed curb/pelham (without a chain) may still be something to consider - but I'd probably not go as far as something with wires or rollers. I suspect if you bit him up too strongly he'll back off it (like the kimblewick). But then its not really that different from the dutch gag you already have - just that the shank is straight rather than bubbles ! So why not save the money :D ;)

The other thing I am thinking is that a bit that will allow an easy migration as any re-education takes effect will make life easier for you in the longer term. This is one of the advantages of a french link dutch gag - that its quite easy to make the transition to a loose ring french link eg for dressage as the action is very similar.

[joy70]

cvb

my dutch gag is a french link one!! i USED to have a waterford in a dutch gag too :o sorry for confusing you!

im going to have a play this weekend! still haven't found any thin reins yet!

[anuvb]

It's not really that his tongue would be thick for his mouth, it's just that the confomration of a native type means that they don't have enough room in their mouth for some bits which can be bulky.

If you found he went above the bit in the pelham, then I suspect you weren't using your curb rein properly. Do you have a copy of Heather's book? If not, then I'd recommend getting a hold of it. It gives a good description of how to use the curb chain and the pelham. Another good author on books for tack and bits is Susan McBane (? I think I'll check tonight and edit if it's wrong).

I agree with cvb on the french link and no curbs - at least for the time being.

Don't forget to try and change one thing at a time!

[joy70]

anuvb

yes ive got a copy of heathers book, will have to have another look at it tonight!

do you have to hold both sets al the time, or can you just pick up the curb rein when necessary??? sorry i know im being really thick here! :o

[james]

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but does anyone else think that horses pass tips around on how to evade bits, martingales, etc?

I have this vision of the older ones telling the youngsters things like "ahh well son, the best way to evade your loose ring snaffle with a running martingale is to..."

Trust noone...

[ros]

I agree with anuvb that it might be worth having another go with the trusty Pelham. Elastic curb if the metal is too strong, and with that you don't need to be afraid of hurting him, and yes, you can use the curb rein all by itself if you want to - I do sometimes. He may "curl" or overbend a little at first, but people can get slightly paranoid when they get that reaction. Different types of bit provoke different evasions, so if a horse is going to try out a new bit he's going to do it a certain way depending on what it is you've put in his mouth, and that's usually what he'll do when he's trying out a Pelham.

I'm afraid I can't be doing with these fancy bits as a rule - the simpler the better as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, are you judging the different bits on one ride or are you allowing your horse a little time to get used to them before making your decisions?