What is broke?

[Tootsie4U]

This was brought up on another forum and I find it very interesting so wanted to share it with the NR crew.

I understand the term alone can cause controversy, but lets just sort out that "broke" is interchangeable for the training a horse has recieved.

1) a broke horse is one that is ridden for the first time and stops bucking or doesn't buck and will be calm after having a person sitting on the horse.

2) a horse that is trained in the very basics and ready to be trained to a specific discipline. This is NOT dependant upon age, years under saddle, rider ability, etc.

3) a horse that is trained to do anything and everything a rider asks willingly, without objection. This is NOT dependant upon age, years under saddle, rider ability, etc.

[lisae]

I'd say 1) is not broke and may indeed be a lit fuse waiting to blow 2) is green broke and 3) is well broke

[wildponies]

are you asking us a question? or are you just telling us... i understand the term to be.. if a horse has been BROKEN to ride, then the horse is rideable, it has been ridden, if a horse is BROKEN to drive, then they have been used for driving. Are you after a definition or something?

[Mehitabel]

i'd call 1) backed, not broke/broken/trained/whatever.
2) i'd say was 'broke/broken/etc'.
3) i'd say was 'well schooled'.

[Tootsie4U]

more of a discussion wild ponies :)

IMO, even a horse whose been going under saddle for ten years who occasionally throws bucking fits with his rider (minus the bucks caused by pain of course) is not considered broke. Entirely broke to me = willing and obedient and is not at all dependant upon its level of riding.

[Mehitabel]

see, i'd say that a horse like that is broken, but badly trained/schooled. when i take ponies for breaking in, i send them back at 2, not 3 - i'd be there for years! training is a much longer process IMO, whereas breaking in is the process of getting it used to being ridden and to a stage where the proper schooling can begin.

[Tootsie4U]

See, this is how its a discussion!

So, Es, You'd say that training and breaking are two very distinct objectives? Not related?

What if I had a three year old colt who has undergone EXTENSIVE ground training so much that the trust was 100% and the very first time I sat on him, we achieved two laps around the schooling ring without incident. The next time I rode him, he acted like he'd done it a million times before... He has absolutely no formal training. Would you call that broke? (thinking specifically of a three year old at my farm)

[Mehitabel]

breaking in isn't just about trust though, your hypothetical 3 year old still doesn't know the ridden cues for speed up, slow down, stop, turn etc. he doesn't know how to balance himself round corners with a rider, or anything like that.

the first time i sat on petal was riding her back from the far field (a 15 minute walk and i was feeling lazy so hopped on) and she plodded back like an old pro. but she wouldn't have known what it meant had i used my legs, or if i'd had a bridle, what bit pressure would have meant. as it was, we were in a headcollar, so when i needed to turn i just leant forwards and turned her head. so she wasn't broken in.

i would say breaking in is a stage of training. not 100% distinct, but training for me is a much longer process. i'd say copper is 'fully trained' - he isn't getting improved or changed when he's ridden. petal is still being schooled - i am still aiming to improve her way of going, she's broken in, no question - but there are stil things i want her to learn, like posher dressage stuff.

[lisae]

The three yr. old is started- but not trained, like Es says, and would need some miles on him before you could say he's safe! I'm on a Haflinger discussion board and that breed is prone to the following: a youngster is started with little reaction, seems accepting of everything and going great. However, their very laid back nature means that they could very well be internalizing a lot of emotion/fear, but perhaps the trainer not familar with the breed misses this. Then you are set up for a wreck....

I myself have Monday, our coming 7-yr. old mare who came to me broke to ride and drive, been to driving clinics, etc. But she is still young, and what has happened over the two years we've had her is that she's now very comfortable with us, and has decided that I may not be 100% capable when driving. She's pretty astute, because I'm a beginner driver with fear of too much contact. So she's likely to trot out when I want a walk and break into a canter when I want a trot. She NEVER does this with my husband driving! She's "fully trained" for him.

[Tootsie4U]

But the irony of it all:

I come to you with my horse "Trigger" and we're discussing his sale. I tell you "Sure, Trigger's broke". Now what on earth does that mean?!?! :D So many people say "broke" this, "broke" that, but it doesnt necessarily mean diddly squat!

I think the terms obsolete. The crude feeling it gives us is the only real definition I think it deserves~ back in the cowboy days they'd break the animals spirit. Thats the only use I see in it.

[Mehitabel]

that breed is prone to the following: a youngster is started with little reaction, seems accepting of everything and going great. However, their very laid back nature means that they could very well be internalizing a lot of emotion/fear, but perhaps the trainer not familar with the breed misses this. Then you are set up for a wreck....

i see this a lot, lisa. i've never done a haflinger, but i used to rehab 'problem' ponies, and well over half of them were in this situation. talented ponies who can cope physically are often pushed harder than a pony who is less talented and not as bright - they seem to be coping OK, but in reality are, as you say, internalising and it all goes pear shaped in a couple of years. bright ponies, all of them, and more sensitive than people tend to give them credit for.

i see what you mean toots - generally, over here, 'broken in' is pretty standard for 'has a rider on, walks trots and maybe canters, hasnt' started jumping'. but how it was achieved and how happy the horse is about the whole affair is a very different kettle of fish!

[intouch]

ME! after paying out for three horses & 2 teenage daughters.

[Dizzy]

Ha ha Intouch! 2 horses and a daughter obssessed with Barbie:mad: and all thats pink and fluffy:o

I'm stoney broke!

[cvb]

I guess we tend to use 'backed' and 'green' rather than 'broke', but people will still talk about the process of 'breaking in' (kind of like braking in a new pair of shoes ? ;) (joke !))

But I do think its a poorly defined term and everyone has a different idea of what it means. Often it just means they will accept a saddle and rider, but have no idea what the aids mean.

I still chuckle about my own mare's sales description - "sparsely ridden". She'd had time with a professional trainer more than once (last time to tune her up for sale) but I don't think her owners did much more than the odd ride out in the woods. Mind you, the advert also said that they'd started work on changes (she's western trained) and her basic canter transitions were awful..... (so no, we're not doing changes even now)

[anuvb]

I agree with Es and cvb. My definitions are that (1) would be backed (2) would be broken in but not schooled, usually termed in adverts over here as backed and brought back into work after being turned away for x months, so would be VERY green and (3) is well schooled. Highly schooled would define as being selected and schooled for a particular discipline.

We don't tend to use the term broken-in for backing a horse. I think that might be a trans-atlantic variation. Most horses here are backed, which means just that - the horse gets used to weight of a rider over a long period of time. Then horses are turned away and then brought back slowly into getting used to the riders weight and then to start basic schooling.

[Lovecat]

Originally posted by lisae
that breed is prone to the following: a youngster is started with little reaction, seems accepting of everything and going great. However, their very laid back nature means that they could very well be internalizing a lot of emotion/fear, but perhaps the trainer not familar with the breed misses this. Then you are set up for a wreck....

Interesting you should say this, Lisae, about the same time as I bought Murphy, a girl at our yard bought a 5 yo Haflinger gelding, supposedly bombproof and safe for a child (well, a 12 yr old!) - he went fine at the trial and was apparently everything he should be, but when brought to the yard proceeded to go completely nutty, jumped his stable door with terror when horses were led past, reared and bucked constantly both in the saddle and on the lunge, began to bite everyone who came near him and eventually ended up being sent away for re-training. The trainer has apparently been dumped by him any number of times and he is now for sale again as they don't think he's suitable for a young girl to ride. Poor pony - I wonder if what you describe happened to him?:(

[Tootsie4U]

Talking about Transatlantic... "Backed" to me only refers to tacking. Saddle, bridle, other fittings. The horse has accepted saddle/bit but hasn't been mounted yet.

[Mehitabel]

i don't think we have a specific word for that.

[Tootsie4U]

I'll have a look around today to see if there's any sort of definition over here. I could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time :D