Breaking at the poll

[Tootsie4U]

Is that the only time a horse is truly "on the bit"?

I sometimes see people "slip the bit" and their horse lower's its head, but doesnt break at the poll. They can still be on the verticle though.

Is "being on the bit" just a function of the verticle?

Im confusing myself

:rolleyes:


<edit> oop, wait a minute, just talking about the head right now even though I understand being on the bit is more than just that!

[Mehitabel]

translation problems ahoy!

what does slip the bit mean?
what do you mean by breaking at the poll? in the UK, i've only heard of 'broken necked' which is a bad thing.

[Tootsie4U]

slipping the bit = asking horse to come round. Wiggling the inside rein. Not to be confused with "see-sawing".

Breaking at the poll = horse changes angle of head at the poll, not just dropping the neck or head.

These are my own definitions, not out of some text book :p

[Mehitabel]

well, the angle between head and neck changes depending on what level outline you want. you want the head a little in front of the vertical at all stages. a novice outline will be a lot longer and lower than an advanced one - this (http://www.pnc.com.au/~thracian/Linda/images/BJDRESSAGE2.jpg) or this (http://www.horseselect.co.uk/dressage/novdr/novdr105/novdr14.jpg) as opposed to the horse in the top banner on this site. (http://www.usdf.org/) i couldn't find a decent pic anywhere else that showed what i meant.

is this helping at all? i'm not entirely sure what you're asking.

[cvb]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse :) - the head position is a result of the way the horse is going, not the other way around.

The 'checklist' we end up with is a way for someone on the ground to guess at what the rider and horse are feeling. ie a symptom of being on the bit is that the horse's head is vertical (as Es says, the elevation vs withers will depend on level of training - a horse that has more of its weight in its quarters is likely to have a higher head carriage, but can still have it vertical to ground).

"on the bit" is one of those misnomers that misleads because it is not really about the bit but about the whole horse and its acceptance of aids.

Now - got to dash for a train - byeeee !

[Tootsie4U]

I know you cant talk about "being on the bit" without considering what the rest of the body is doing. But, I think people here are confusing what it actually means, thus the reason for my question.

Rider will ask horse to come "on the bit" by wiggling inside rein and pushing horse forward. Horse drops his neck but doesnt change the angle of his poll.

or

Rider will ask horse to come on the bit by wiggling inside rein and pushing horse forward. Horse tucks and rounds by breaking at the poll and level of neck does not change. Verticle is correct so no evasion (right?).

I see the first happen more than the second, so is that the "correct" way of going? I think that perhaps the horse has been conditioned to drop his head/neck rather than come round and the rider doesnt truly understand the concept.

[sallym]

Tootsie

I'm probably not the best person to reply but I just wanted to sympathise with your dilema. I only started to "get" this a couple of years ago, despite having read practically everything written on the subject. You have to get the horse really working from behind and the rein twiddle is really only a request to soften. You need to think about pushing him up into the contact rather than worrying about what his head/neck is doing. At this stage in Bon's training, I don't think his face would be vertical. You will feel his back coming up under you and the forehand lighten.

I'm sorry I am not explaining this very well. It's just a marvellous feeling when you get it. If only I could sustain it - I go "yeh" in my head and then lose it!

Best wishes

Sally

[Tootsie4U]

I hear ya Sally, its really an independant thing, the head is. Bon gave it up a few times already, but I dont require it from him.

This got me thinking after I seen it happen in a lesson. The rider was applauded for having the horse "come on the bit" but all I saw it do was lower its neck. Just wondering whats going on about that.

[Mehitabel]

did the horse's strides lengthen?
did it step further under with it's hind legs?
did it look like it was going uphill?

if not, then the rider was probably just fiddling with the head.

sometimes, all the rest is there, and the horse is just still poking its nose. in that case, then a wiggle on the rein to ask the nose to drop down is the way to go. but more often than not, it's just fiddling. i got a very useful visualisation from someone on saddle-up a while ago, that really works - 'think of pushing the ears out over the nose, not pulling the nose in under the ears'. normally, the fiddling with the reins is doing the latter.

[sallym]

I don't think it's always easy to see what's going on. Sometimes it's obvious and the horse looks lighter in front and the hocks really engaged. Sometimes it's obviously not and the horse is going along with its head pulled in and the hind legs trailing. Trouble is, there's a lot in between when it's hard to see what's going on exactly! You will FEEL the difference though.

Best wishes

Sally

[sallym]

Es, I love that visualisation.

[Tootsie4U]

Yes, that is a good one!

So, horse dropping his neck angle, not poll angle, is or isnt traveling correctly? Or too dificult to tell just by that?

[ladyrose]

Going 'on the bit' is a misleading way of putting it - i prefer 'on the aids'. From what ive learnt (forgive me if my memory isnt perfect) being on the aids is when the horse is more collected in front and engaged behind so that his hindquarters are actively working. The head position is just a sign that this is happening and this alone does not mean that he is on the aids - in fact, all it means is that the rider is forcing the horses head in.

One of my instructors once told me to think of it like this: when you start in the school and you and the horse are all over the place, imagine that the horses hindquarters are lagging behind you and getting left behind, so you use your seat to ask the horse to steady in front and speed up behind so that he is effectively on the aids. I say your seat and not your hands because that will result in the horse just tucking his head in and arching his neck.

Soz about the poor expression of what I'm trying to say! It makes sense in my head anyways

[Mehitabel]

you mean lower from the withers but keeping the head at the same angle? stretching out, quite possibly, but it's hard to say. you really need to see the whole horse to tell.

[ros]

This "on the bit" thing must be the most confusing term in the whole of horsemanship!

It's about the horse being poised and ready to do whatever you ask of him. Some horses will make a different shape from others because all horses are built differently; some will find it easier to lower their quarters than others. It's all relative.

The rein aids ask the horse to soften his jaw. The position of the hands can help show him where you want his head. If the head and neck are stretched out long and low you can stretch the muscles over the neck and back, but that doesn't encourage the horse to sit back on his haunches and lift and lighten his front end, which is really what you want him to do if he's to be poised and collected for action.

Teaching a horse to work on the bit is, to my mind, a combination of making sure that a) he's comfortable in his tack and therefore not being prevented from using himself correctly; b) making sure you take responsibility for your own body mass and weight, to the same end; c) encouraging him without force - rather by reward - to be soft and accepting of the aids, particularly in his jaw (which in turn releases the neck and back muscles) and d) asking him to perform movements which encourage and teach him to position himself correctly so that he can respond quickly and easily to your requests.

The feeling you get when your horse works correctly and without resisitance is unmistakeable and incredibly satisfying.

[Tootsie4U]

Glad youre back ;)

[galadriel]

Breaking at the poll is actually a term I've heard as a comment in a dressage test. As used, it meant that the horse's neck was flexed *too* much. It's usually an indication of someone trying to get the horse "on the bit" using just the reins.

Another useful dressage judge comment I've picked up (I *love* scribing), is "the poll should always be the highest point." If the neck is arched such that the crest of the neck is above the poll, then the horse is overflexed (broken at the poll). Usually. There are horses whose neck/crest conformation makes it impossible to keep the poll as the highest point; one of these is a grey mare in Heather's book, so if you've got "EE" check it out :)

A horse's head position (vertical or ahead of the vertical, slightly lifted or slightly lowered) does not necessarily indicate much about whether he's "on the bit"--sitting back, reaching under with his hind legs, and lighter on the forehand--but breaking at the poll is definitely an indication that he's not.

Edit to add that I, too, love Es' image about driving the ears forward :D