A case for a pelham???

[Janette]

Hi.
A horse I know, is very tense, and as a result, tries to charge around with its head in the air at the beginning of each session. It takes about 20 minutes for her to settle down, and then she still gets very tense if you do anything new, such as change the rein, with the head shooting up again. Is this a case for a pelham with 2 reins? (currently in a KK sprenger training bit, but can be quite strong)
If so, which mouthpiece, because this horse does not have a lot of room in her mouth for a rubber mouthpiece, leans on a mullen, and finds that the single joint of a snaffle hits the the roof of the mouth. ? french link pelham if there is such a thing?????

ermmm ideas anybody?????

[Hyper]

Hi,

I just wondered what type of "session" this is because I think this may help anyone tempted to answer your Q's?

My initial reaction is to ask many more questions about the situation and the rider(s) and the age of the horse etc etc, rather than to comment on the type of bit.

[Janette]

Ok - I own up. Its Me!!!!!!!!!

I have regular lessons on Star, and this tensness is just not settling down. When she is hacked out, she is super, alert and forward going with her head up, looking at things, but not evading at all.
Lessons - sigh...... Lots of rushing and tenseness, with an open mouth etc in trot, still looking to the right when on the left rein!!!! She CAN go straight, but does not find it easy. However, the fact that she is getting straighter shows that progress is being made. She uses the rushing, to try and change my mind about going left, by making it VERY hard work for me. (crafty thing)

My instructor is talking about draw/running reins, flash nosebands etc, and I wondered about the pelham with 2 reins.

She does relax, but the feeling of relaxation panics her, so after about 4-5 strides, She thinks 'what am I doing with my head down here??????' and it shoots back up.

I am riding with soft low hands, maintaining the bend in my elbow, rewarding relaxation, by 'giving' with the rein.

Any help?

[Yann]

Did you get your saddle issues sorted out? If there's any discomfort there then it could contribute to the sort of problems you're having in the school with tension and evasions. If there is a problem there then I know from personal experience that the horse will be reluctant to relax and round up.

Is Star fairly green? Rio tended to open her mouth a lot at first in a snaffle when asked to round and although in theory she also has a small cob mouth was 100% better in a hard rubber pelham, and 'got' the idea of rounding up far more clearly.

I don't know if the head out counter to the bend is part of the same problem, Rio often does this and I think it's more to help her balance or due to a bit of stiffness. Which rein is her 'bad ' one seems to have swapped over recently:D

[Janette]

Hi Yann,
The saddle seems to be ok for the moment, but I'm keeping a beady eye on it.

She is green, and was not 'started' properly, in that she was just sat on, and canter/galloped off into the wide blue yonder! Hence, I think, our troubles in trot and walk.

I'm not happy about putting a flash on, I just don't like the idea of strapping her mouth shut. Is it possible to use a flash as a temporary measure?, like the running reins?

I don't know a lot about this end of the horse, and how changing bits will affect the way of going. A french link was also suggested as an alternative to the sprenger.

I'll suggest the rubber pelham, just to see what the reaction is.

Thanks.

[Yann]

You can use any aid or piece of tack as a temporary measure, though I daresay it's possible with some to end up relying on them so temporary becomes permanent.

I would be reluctant personally for anyone to use draw reins on my horse though. I've seen some horrible episodes where they were used, and they taught the horse nothing about relaxing or using itself properly. Like the flash they are all too easily a shortcut to overcome an underlying issue. Perhaps in skilled hands they can be a 'yes / no' tool, but at the end of the day it's force and we know what the ancient saying says about that with horses. For the same reason I'm not personally keen on flashes but would probably use one if I got good advice to do so and a a temporary measure. Fortunately we aren't in that situation.

As far as bits go why not give things a try? It's often possible to borrow bits off friends and other liveries and as long as they're not too severe and fit correctly you can try them and see what sort of result you get. Bitting is an art but it can also be a personal preference thing for the horse, and you don't know till you try. You're unlikely to do any harm or cause damage if you're sensible about it.

With the pelham I read the book, got the seatsaver, and thought I'd try it - it worked. The theory about the curb relaxing the jaw and the poll pressure asking the horse down works. What you are asking for becomes more obvious, especially if you release a little in reward when you get it. I would always use an elastic curb though, the metal curb is severe in comparison and too much for many horses. And it would appear you can then return to a snaffle and continue with that.

I wondered a little what my instructor would say when we turned up one week with the pelham in but she thought it suited Rio and agreed it made a big difference. At the end of the day Star's your horse and you should feel able to try out different things for yourself:)

[ros]

I agree with Yann. Don NOT let anyone put your horse in draw reins. You can damage the nuchal ligament irreparably in one 20 minute session if you aren't absolutely expert, and although there are well-respected people who will argue the case for their use, the very best riders all seem to be agreed that if you have a problem there's always a better way to solve it than draw-reins.

The whole thing to me sounds like a combination of things. Saddle can be a very big factor, and I'd always put it at the top of the suspect list if a horse is rushing about with its nose in the air, having trouble bending one way or the other, and generally being tense. If you get all the physical stuff out of the way - saddle, bit, teeth etc. - you can confidently look elsewhere for the problem.

Psychologically, a horse that hasn't had much schooling can worry a lot about not understanding what we want. And of course, movements that a trained horse can do with its eyes shut can be very difficult and very strenuous for one that hasn't quite learned its own balance or isn't quite strong enough to perform what we want. Working in a school is a completely different kettle of fish than a nice relaxing hack.

Whatever the cause of your horse's problems, any kind of force will make things much worse. Strapping horses down to make them do something they don't feel they're physically or mentally capable of doing - irrespective of whether they're right - doesn't exactly help to nurture what we're all hopefully seeking, which is a real partnership and friendship with our horses.

By the way, I think a normal mullen mouth metal pelham with two reins and an elastic curb would be a much better choice than, say, a flash, particularly if your horse is strong and fights the Sprenger. I wouldn't use a jointed Pelham. But if you do go for the Pelham and it helps, you still have some other issues to sort out, I think. It will be really interesting to know how you get on.

[Janette]

Thaks for all that. Wow.

I don't like the idea of draw/running reins either. Star has to feel able to do, not be forced into something, as I suspect that will upset her even further. I'm going to go with the pelham for a while. I've got a mullen mouth metal, with a leather curb chain, and we'll give it a go, and see what happens.

Will let you know.

[Janette]

update.

Being afairly open minded person, we gave the running reins a go. I was very prepared to take them off straight away if I didn't like what they did!!!!! But, Star was not reeled in, just encoraged to bring her head down, and the contact followed her when she stretched down. No rush, no panic, relaaaaxed, with a lovely sloppy mouth at the end of the night. Will try the pelham as well another time, but it can't stay on the bridle, because she is on working livery, and to be used properly, 2 reins. I don't want roundings on it, so its a 'special schooling' bit.

Happier horse last night = happier me!!!!!

[Janette]

Rode last night - no 'special' tack, just a snaffle and a pair of reins. Head was more relaxed, mouth STILL nice and slobbery.

[Hyper]

Not sure if I've understood this........sounds like you tried the running reins once and got a truly amazing result. Result - after one go horse learned so much that you now don't have any problems - brilliant.

It sounds so good I think we need another update!!

[Janette]

Ha - note I said MORE relaxed. Not perfect, but thankyou anyway. she still waves her head around, but is lowereing it more, of her own accord. Sorry, I wasn't very clear - probabaly still excited. I've been working at this for 3 months now, and saw some improvement - you know what that can do to a person.

Still going to use the pelham with 2 reins next, ? a variety of ways to persuade Star that not waving her head around is a lot more comfy for her, and less exhausting than fighting/arguing about it.

[Janette]

I had a lesson last night, and we used a pelham. It had no effect whatsoever. She tried to race around, with her head in the air, pulling like mad and generally being downright silly. My shoulders were like lumps of molten lead after 20 minutes. We started the lesson in the snaffle, but because of the pulling, head carriage and general lack of brakes, changed to a pelham.

However, she has recently recovered form a throat abcess and has been getting a bit of extra feed to put some condition back on her.
Also, because of the illness, she hasnot had asmuch exercise as usual. But this was not the first time I have ridden her.
All I can think is that, last night she proved she was better!!!!!!

I hope that this is a blip, and we can go back to how Star was, because this was awful. I feel as though we have been battling on for ages, getting somewhere, very slowly, and now this.

[ros]

Well, more feed & less exercise is bound to take its toll! I'm afraid there are times when it doesn't matter what you put in a horse's mouth, you're going to have a fight! I think if I were you I'd regard this as Mitigating Circumstances. ;)

[Hyper]

I wonder how much of a contributing factor to it all the throat abscess has been.....................I think I would behave badly if I had one, and I'd possibly at times just give up protesting and appear to be good if I felt that protesting wasn't getting me anywhere!!

It would be brilliant in some ways if once completely healed you didn't get any repitition of the original problems. I can't imagine that that will be the case btw............they are such complex creatures (that's why I love them).

[Janette]

She has been rushing around, fighting me, and running away from tigers for as long as she's been with me :(. This is not a new thing, and we were seeing real improvements in the time it was taking for her to settle. I 2 years, we've gone from two hours to stop jogging, relax, head to come down and walk, to about 5minutes! Progress.
That lesson on tuesday was just dreadful. She was worse than she has EVER been, and so strong...... If the lanes are clear and I can get to the stables, I am going to ride her tonight - and am prepared!!!!!

[Tumbleweed]

How were the running reins put on? Were they from the saddle? If so, this is a good way to put them. Running reins and draw reins are completely different and work in different ways. Running reins don't hold the horse's head down, but if used properly, they ask the horse to soften without putting any pressure on.

Instead of holding your hands low, raise them, this will often work and is something that I would use before lowering my hands. It you have your hands low on Tumbleweed he will put his head up higher.

You could also sit light on the saddle, this doesn't mean leaning forward, but being softer on the saddle especially in rising trot and canter.

When she turns her head the oposite direction, do you pull with the other rein? Try using a stronger inside leg and relax both reins slightly, but you will also need your outside leg to support the inside one by bringing it back and puting it on her to encourage her to bend.

Hope this helps.

[ros]

Draw reins, running reins - I really wouldn't underestimate the amount of sheer leverage you get with either of them. In that they both exert force, they work in exactly the same way.

I've been tying my haynets up differently recently. I've always threaded the drawstring through the net twice, but a few weeks ago my S.O. showed me how he does it. He loops the drawstring through the tying ring first, then through the metal loop at the other end of the haynet, then back through the tying ring again before pulling it tight and tying it off back to any old loop of the net.

I wouldn't have believed how much tighter you can get the net simply by having the extra leverage from threading the string back through the tying ring, and in the same vein I think a lot of people wouldn't believe how much pressure you can exert on the bit with what to you probably feels like a gentle squeeze on the draw reins or running reins. They're incredibly dangerous things.

[Tumbleweed]

Originally posted by ros
Draw reins, running reins - I really wouldn't underestimate the amount of sheer leverage you get with either of them. In that they both exert force, they work in exactly the same way.

I've been tying my haynets up differently recently. I've always threaded the drawstring through the net twice, but a few weeks ago my S.O. showed me how he does it. He loops the drawstring through the tying ring first, then through the metal loop at the other end of the haynet, then back through the tying ring again before pulling it tight and tying it off back to any old loop of the net.

I wouldn't have believed how much tighter you can get the net simply by having the extra leverage from threading the string back through the tying ring, and in the same vein I think a lot of people wouldn't believe how much pressure you can exert on the bit with what to you probably feels like a gentle squeeze on the draw reins or running reins. They're incredibly dangerous things.


No they are not the same thing, draw reins hold the head down, and can pull it further down. We have all seen horses going with their head pulled down and in.

Running reins are like side reins or Market Harborough, and you can't pull a horse's head down.

With both you should be riding on the normal rein and the draw/running rein is an extra, but the draw rein is a lot more severe and does a lot more damage to the horse's neck.

[ros]

Obviously they're positioned differently, but they both work on the principle of leverage and therefore force, and they're both dangerous unless used by a real expert. Running reins certainly are not the same as side-reins.

By the way, when we talk about "draw reins" I assume we're using the term loosely (as most people do) to describe running reins attached to the girth between the forelegs rather than beneath the saddle flaps? True draw reins, according to all my books, are those that run over either side of the poll, then through the bit back to the rider's hands.

[Tumbleweed]

You should not be using leverage with either of them, but with the draw reins, very few people don't don't use force. You can always tell when a horse has been ridden in draw reins, the curve of the neck is broken. This doesn't seem to happen with running reins, mainly because you can't get the horse in the artificial very low head carriage that you see with the draw reins.

The running rein goes through the bit rings and to the top of the girth/girth straps, which is a different action on the bit, head and neck.

Side reins are fixed, saddle to bit, but with the running reins, you can play with the bit and encourage the horse to drop his nose.

A rider that has an independent seat and doesn't hold on by the reins, can use the running reins to a good effect, but with the draw reins, all you do is pull the head down.

[Janette]

Ros.
I used running reins, attached to the girth straps, under the saddle flap, through the bit ring, and then to my hand - under the supervision of a very well qualified, and experienced instructor.

In no way at all, did I pull star's head down. I want to show her that she can carry it there on her own, and forcing her will not accomplish that. The whole idea was to show her a comfort zone, with her head in the normal position. When her head was where it should be when she is relaxed and working more correctly, there is NO pressure on this rein at all, but when she puts her head up, that is when it comes into play, and I do not pull, but simply play with the rein (like a curb rein), until her head came back down into the comfort zone, where she was working on the snaffle again. When she stretched down, my hands followed, and maintained a light contact. The running reins were working like a Harbridge attachment, but with more feel because theywere attached to my hands.

Tumbleweed
I went riding last night, and she was a different horse again! Gorgeous! The joggin bit lasted for 5 minutes, and then we worked on relaxing, and she became light in my hand, with her nose pointing where she was supposed to be going, with lots of stretching. This goal is by no means achieved, but we are getting there. Our next goal, is to do transitions, without the heads going up, and becoming very tense

[Tumbleweed]

They used to be closed Fridays Jannette, have they changed?

We used to say that the school horses and ponies worked a 5 day week, and we worked 6 with at least 3 times the hours a day. These school horses and ponies are very pampered.

Well done, it is a lovely feeling when they start to get it right.

Tumbleweed used to be a nightmare to get him to drop his head and I didn't have anywhere to work him, just trained when hacking out. I found the best way to get him to lower his head was to trot up a steep hill, and there are plenty round there.
;)

[Janette]

They are closed for lessons, but Friday is one of my access days for Star. They are Very well looked after indeed.

[Hyper]

Ooops..............my comments about the abscess!!

I wasn't suggesting that the problems were brand new - in fact in my last 4 yrs experience with my horse I had absolutely no idea she had intermittent excruciating pain (from an abscess + underlying cause which may well have been with her since birth. I didn't own her for her first 11 years in life and in the time I have owned her, vets and etc etc had not, until Dec 03, identified the real problem; yet I always knew that there must be a physical problem.

I'm very happy indeed to report that following fairly major surgery to her jaw she's now constantly the loving and kind horse I always knew she could be rather than this way every now and again.

[Janette]

This makes me wonder how long the abcess has been brewing up.

[Tumbleweed]

Absesses can take a very long time to build up and in some cases they can come and go, and not fully develop for several years.

The main problem when a horse has a puncture wound in the foot, is absesses can develop and come out at the coronary band about a year later. This is why puncture wounds are left open and you have to keep them open.

[Hyper]

Hi Janette,

Kerry's was in her jaw - ooo the pain!! She had a completely abnormal tooth root and unerrupted tooth (and she's 13'ish). So for years, as I said perhaps since birth or before birth she has intermittently developed an abscess. Whilst the abscess is the symptom not always the cause - can you imagine the pain?? It has explained in our situation her absolute intolerance of anything at all sometimes, her subdued acceptance of anything at other times and also, of course, her brilliance at others.

I suppose I was hoping for you, in a small and strange way I guess, that you had identified a real cause for your problems. However, they are all different and maybe our situation is nothing at all like yours. I just felt I should share our experience in case it helped.

Poor Kerry had to suffer general anaesthesia and her jaw being drilled through from outside in - yes through all the bone - and having her abnormal tooth plus root punched out......... Then of course when we brought her home she just had a big gaping hole from outside to inside, i.e. below her jaw through into her mouth.

I managed to deal with the external wound and healing and I'm jolly pleased to say she seems to be managing to lay down new jaw bone herself.

Sandra

[Janette]

Poor Kerry - I had an abcess on a tooth and she has all of my sympathy. Give her a hug from me and Star

[Hyper]

I will.