Nudging in the back whilst leading

[emma314]

Ahab has got into a funny habit of nudging me in the back when I'm leading him. I like to give him a loose lead rein and he walks really nicely either beside or behind me with his head lowered. The weird thing is that every now and then he nudges me with his muzzle or tries to rub his head against my shoulder. It's not a problem because he doesn't do it hard or in a nasty way. I was just curious about why he'd be doing it. Any ideas?

[Horseyheaven]

well Montana walks behind me for the reason thats he's a little insecure not really nervous or spooky just likes his mum to be the leader as he feels safer!!

[emma314]

Yeah, I was thinking that it could be something like that but he really doesn't seem to be insecure at all when I'm grooming him and stuff. And some of the time he charges ahead of me!! I think that he's just an attention seeker! He loves being the centre of attention and for people to take notice of him :D

[Caz&Irena]

My horse does this too but I think with her it is her sense of humour! It is really muddy in the field at the moment and I said to her the other day 'don't you dare push me today' so she waited until we got to a little bit of an incline and pushed me down it, I slid down and luckily managed to stay on my feet. When I looked at her I swear she was laughing, the little madam!!
I have also been told it is a show of affection. I noticed at the Spirit of the Horse a couple of years ago, the clown had taught his horse to push him around the arena and was rewarding him with treats. I've also heard that it is because they want you to lead as they are insecure but I don't think that with my horse that is the case because she is quite a confident mare.
So maybe we'll never really know why they do it!!:rolleyes:

[emma314]

Hahaha, Gillian, it definitely sounds like your mare has a very good sense of humour!! Wispy did a similiar thing the other day. I was trying to carefully cling onto the fence and step around the mud whilst trying to lead Wispy through. Just at that moment he decided it would be fun to pull me in the opposite direction straight through the muddiest bit! They are funny animals :D

[virtuallyhorses]

He's telling you that 'you may be in front (a dominant leading position) but I am your boss' - he's not being cute or funny he's telling you that you're lower in the pecking order than he is and therefore if he's needs a head scratch or just wants to move you along he'll do it.

Using the head, esp the jawbone is a very subtle way of 'fighting' amongst horses - usually friends - anytime they rest their jawbone on you and put pressure on - they're saying - you're my underling (even though they may be friends horses still have hierarchy)

Its up to you but you shouldn't allow it. Anytime he does this immediately get him out of your space - tell him off and make him back up.

[Caz&Irena]

Hi Virtually Horses, I understand what you are saying but I really think that you cannot generalise. I have just read a story on guide horses for the blind (which are normally miniature horses) where one lady uses her full size horse which gently nudges her when she strays from a given track.
I'm pretty sure my horse doesn't regard me as lower than her in the pecking order (mind you her name is Princess Irena so maybe she thinks I am!!) My old horse used to do this too and she was a 17.2hh gentle giant who wouldn't harm a flea. However, I also used to have a 17.3hh horse who never nudged but who really did show dominance. He made a habit of rearing up in his stable and chasing you out with his ears back and jaws snapping!

So not so sure about this one!!;)

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by Gillian
Hi Virtually Horses, I understand what you are saying but I really think that you cannot generalise. I have just read a story on guide horses for the blind (which are normally miniature horses) where one lady uses her full size horse which gently nudges her when she strays from a given track.


Well, actually that's exactly what the study of behaviour does - generalise. It studies behaviours and deciphers what they mean :) With regard to the trained horse - this is a trained behaviour but it is still based on higher horse\lower horse - the guide horse becomes the higher horse because it gets to say where the other horse (human in this case) goes. A lower horse can not (never) tell a higher horse where it may go or not go.

However, it would be interesting to study whether this counts or not - since the owner has begun this by 'requesting' the nudge - which is not the same as your example at all. A higher horse can request or accede to a lower horse to groom him - this doesn't mean that the lower horse can just wander up and touch him anytime it likes - it has to be asked for or permitted.

I know we like to make exceptions for ourselves and our pets\horses but really we're just kidding ourselves most of the time. Overt aggression such as biting,kicking and rearing are not the only signs of hierachy - just like its not with us. When you meet someone of higher rank they don't immediately belt you over the head and take your lunch money - but you generally know that they outrank you none the less - same for animals. Rank has nothing to do with wishing you harm or being aggressive. :)

[galadriel]

Originally posted by virtuallyhorses
Its up to you but you shouldn't allow it. Anytime he does this immediately get him out of your space - tell him off and make him back up.

The horse shouldn't actually enter your space without invitation. The nudging with the head may seem very sweet, I know it looks that way. But a lower-ranking horse may not touch a higher ranking horse without permission, nor even enter its space.

Example: My horse sees me come through the gate. She walks over to me. She stops about 7 or 8 feet away from me and waits for me to invite her to come closer. Since I'm the dominant one in the relationship, she needs that invitation or she must stay completely out of my space. If I invite her closer (since I don't have mobile ears I use my voice and hands), then she may come within touching distance, but she must wait for me to touch her.

If I walk away while in the pasture, she often follows me. If she does not, then later she has to ask again for permission to come closer to me. One invitation does not mean that she can always come close, and an invitation to come closer does not mean that she may initiate physical contact. Uninvited invasion of space or physical contact is a horse being domineering as best it knows how.

[Wally]

Mighty Oaks from tiny acorns.......... thin end of a wedge. I have to agree with everyone who has said not to allow it. It is a dominance issue, not affection, not a funny quirk, it is a definite play for dominance.

It's fine while he does it to you, you're big enough to take it, but if he does it to a small kid or older person he's going to knoock someone over.


This is something I will not tollerate in any of my horses, mini or big. While leading he should be fully tuned to what your body is saying, his head should be next to you, so you can watch his cues too.

I am maybe a bit of a stickler for manners, I cannot stand bad mannered kids or animals. Start as you mean to go on, NEVER move the goalposts or the boundaries and everyone is happy. If any of our RDA horses nudged they'd have a kid out of his wheelchair or a kid on sticks over backwards.

You have maybe come to an armed truce over how hard a nudge you will tollerate before you administer a reprimand, so things never escalate out of control.......one day you will meet that horse who will, if given an inch take a mile or two.....and you'll wonder why and not associate that first nudge as the slippery slope.

[KarinUS]

Example: My horse sees me come through the gate. She walks over to me. She stops about 7 or 8 feet away from me and waits for me to invite her to come closer. Since I'm the dominant one in the relationship, she needs that invitation or she must stay completely out of my space. If I invite her closer (since I don't have mobile ears I use my voice and hands), then she may come within touching distance, but she must wait for me to touch her.

Wow that's very interesting! I have never heard of that. I was actually kind of disappointed my horse wasn't more exhuberant but I understand it better now.
He will look up when he sees me and wait. I make eye contact and call him and he comes. He will come close he; will stop a bit in front of me and then I stretch out my arm to him. I was always wondering why he would be so cautious, thinking I was doing something to make him hesitant. He generally follows me from there without a lead rope, etc, so I figured he couldn't totally dislike being with me, but I was worried he liked me less than my friends horse likes his owner (he practically runs over her when he sees her).

[Wally]

The greatest thing of all is when the whole heard come to say hello to you. We end up sitting in the middle of a huddle of horses all standing close in to you, but not touching you.
They often doze off like this in summer.

[Frances]

When I lead Haakon, he gently touches my hand with his nose every so often. He doesn't push, just quietly touches and I don't think it is a dominance thing. I think he does it just to let me know he is next to me and that he is checking that I am aware of him. He leads very well, in tune with my body language and I am most definitely the boss. He does it to Wally too and my daughter when she was little. It is a reassurance and trust thing for him, I think.

[Sezza]

My mare nudges me when I lead her, but I think at the moment it is simply her getting rid of flys as they annoy the hell out of her. My friends gelding does it too when the flys are bad. But thats just my situation.

[emma314]

Thanks for all the replies!! That was really interesting, I didn't realise that's what he was doing! It's difficult to actually change anything though because he's not my horse and his owners would be behaving in different ways with him. I know I should probably try to stop him but he's very gentle and has been doing it for years without getting any more aggressive. He tries really hard when being ridden and is great to handle, so it's never been a problem.

[Wally]

Monty found Cymro for me...well she was assessing him for an RDA group but she had to fail him as he'd been allowed to rub his head on folk. Not in any real play for dominance, just he'd been allowed to do it and it was a convenient way of getting a scratch.

We put a stop to it from day one, he NEVER runs his head on Frances or me, but he will still try it with clients and he gets away with it because probably out of politeness they don't want to be seen to discipline somebody else's horse.

So long as he never does it to me that's great, but I make it clear to folk that if he does try rubbing his head on them that they stop him from doing it. That's the trouble when your horses are ridden by other folk a great deal.

[virtuallyhorses]

Working with other people's horse is always a bit of a lottery. I recently helped a friend worm her horse - I began by teaching him 'head down', he's a notorious head thrower and after an initial good start, we went through the 'you can't make me tantrum' - when you're using all the pressure you can muster you're always wondering if the owner is thinking you're an ogre.

Then he clicked that I wasn't going to give in, he couldn't intimidate me and I wasn't going to get mad at him but that we were going to keep doing the same exercise until he gave the required response and he became very soft and relaxed and popped his head to the ground at the slightest hint. The owner popped the wormer in with very little fuss and was gushing at the change - I had been wondering whether she would be posting in a forum just like this about the horrible behaviour she's just seen from some weirdo ex-friend :eek: :D

[Wally]

I have a friend who demands "Wembly" manners every day. It's great because she expects me to treat her horses the same as I treat mine. She if fair and firm with hers and they are a great bunch of horses.

I sometimes get frustrated when someone is having trouble with putting a headcollar on, or picking up a foot. The horse knows he has the upper hand and the poor person, through respect I suppose for Frances and me, won't actually demand they stand still, or pick their foot up or stop looking to see what is round the corner and wherther anyone else is being fed and pay attention to the person handling them.

I would HATE to have to shoe other folks horses, the level of manners I demand is maybe high, I might seem too strict...but then I don't have problems handling any of my horses. I can see where some farriers and woners would come to blows over what is and what is not acceptable behaviour.

Cymro is a bum nibbler when being shod, I let him do it as he doesn't bite, he just plays with the ties on my apron. A lot of farriers don't like this as a bite may be forthcoming one day. So long as Cymro stands still I let him......if he ever does bite me it will be the one and only time.

[Laetitia]

You're right Wally, its consistancy that is the key. I've at last learnt that and insist on the same behaviour every time. Before I used to forget or not notice if nag moved when I'd asked her to stand, or whatever. Nag is a great creeper and that also has taken me a while to suss out and stop. She has got beautiful manners except for these odd quirks, which is a dominance thing. L

[Wally]

Sæla is a "creeper", only a foot step at a time, it drives me mad, but lots of folk don't even notice it. When I draw it to thier attention they don't seem to think it is important...thin end of the wedge!

[emma314]

It is difficult to know how to behave with other people's horses. I don't think it would be fair on the horse to have to try and work out what each person wanted from him. As I am away at university for most of the year I am happy to just do the same as his owner. We are the only ones who ever handle him and know what he's likely to do.

The other thing I was wondering is, would the horse actually try to become more dominant if there was no reason to be. For example, would Ahab try to become more pushy and aggressive if we allowed him to continue nudging at us? He seems to understand that gentle nudging is okay but he has never shown any aggression at all. Do you think this could increase, even though he seems happy (I know I shouldn't use that word!!) and well balanced within his herd?