Bucking!

[Lovecat]

Had another lesson last night. Murphy began beautifully, he had a lovely active walk so YO decided we would do a bit of work on his collection, just getting him to bend a teensy bit and lower his nose.

In walk, he did it beautifully, it felt so different and he did it almost without having to be asked on the left rein. Right rein was stiffer, but he still went well. We moved onto trot and again he was going beautifully, lovely paces and several good moments of collection on the circles we were doing.

To end the lesson, YO said to go for 1 canter on each rein, just to stretch him a bit. Well.... as I went large and up the school clockwise, he came to a stop just past B. I pushed him on a step or two but he was very reluctant to go into trot. Gave him a flick by my leg, nothing more than that, I swear, and he bucked!:eek: Moved him on, he was very, very stroppy about going anywhere near the end of the school and threw in three more bucks. I didn't let him get his head down so they were 'only' back leg & bum bucks, if that makes sense, but given he's never done it before & he's normally very willing, it was surprising, to say the least!

We abandoned the idea of canter at that point (!) and made him work on through it for a bit, enough to make him know he couldn't get away with it. But every time he got near that end of the school he would get what I can only describe as 'arsey' and start to buck again. There was nothing at that end of the school for him to get upset with, he had literally only just finished doing circles at that end, so we don't think it was something scary in the bushes beyond...

I have to say that the feeling that I got from him was that he was fed up and felt he'd done enough - am I anthromorphising too much here? I know that being in collection is very tiring for a horse and it's not something he's used to... he was very sweaty on his neck and under saddle when I untacked. However, he's been sweatier before and not bucked or been unwilling to go.

I'm still something of a nervous nelly after my fall, and this has thrown me a little bit... perhaps I've just read too much and I'm making far too much of things, but I'm worried now that he's going to do it again. This may be a mad question, but why do horses buck? Is it just out of bad temper, or do I need to start checking his saddle etc? Maybe I should put him down for that chiropractor after all.....:(

Please tell me I'm being stupid and not to worry, at the moment I don't know what to think! I've arrranged to ride him out again on Saturday and this is really bothering me....

[nutkin]

It may well be that he was trying to say that he found the circle work difficult and that he wasn't prepared to try it again. Please don't worry that there is something physically wrong because it more than likely was just a typical teenage strop of i don't want to...now make me.... You said that he is still stiff on one rein in walk so i would imagine that he finds the faster paces very difficult to bend at all no matter what rein he is on. He was probably a little sore in his muscles from the work he had already done and had had enough for that day. It should get better in time with practise, but if you find that he starts to go hollow or starts bucking when you next ride him then maybe it would be wise to get him checked over by the chiropractor in case he has pulled something and is feeling a little uncomfortable.

[galadriel]

Horses may buck due to exuberance or discomfort. Sounds to me like in this case it was discomfort; he'd done a lot of work that he wasn't used to doing. He was probably tired. When he stopped, then was reluctant to move forward, that was probably him trying to tell you that he didn't feel up to doing any more.

I'm not saying that you should let him choose when the lesson is over, because that can lead to bad habits. But if he tries to stop unpredictably or is suddenly reluctant to do any more work, then he's probably a little tired. What I'd probably do is ask him for one or two more easy movements and then be done--so it was *your* decision to stop, but you didn't try to push him when he was very tired or getting cramped.

[sozzie]

I'd say he was probably saying -I've worked really hard now and I want to stop. I've been in a situation where I got bucked off because the pony I was riding was being stubborn about having a canter after just trotting around the field for a while and me giving her a flick with my whip was the last straw. She took off bucking and I couldn't stay on so I learn't my lesson about pushing her too much when she wasn't ready. Your horse hasn't necessarily got a problem. The same pony tries to buck me off when over excited or when I try to ride her in her field (which in her mind is somewhere where she eats). When she got over excited on hacks I used a daisy rein a couple of times and she hasn't bucked on a hack ever since then.

[Lovecat]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated!

Galadriel, we did exactly what you recommended and worked him at a trot for a few changes of rein to get him over himself - my YO thought he was being 'cocky' rather than tired, so you're probably right about it being a teenage strop, Nutkin. I definitely got the impression he was fed up with riding circles....

Poor Murph - I feel quite mean now! My friend is riding him tonight (I can't get down there every night & she does him one night a week for me) so I've told her what happened & she's going to see how it goes - she rides an insane TB that has thrown her all around the school before now and likes to ride Murph for 'a quiet life' - she says she's not too bothered about the odd buck... I'm going to ride him again Friday - a nice easy one for both of us! - and see how it goes before Saturday comes.

[Harry Hobbes]

Lovecat asked:

...but why do horses buck?
The underlying cause is grenetic: the gene(s) which produce claustrophobia - a mental state of fear of confinement or constraint.

Horses are (by genetic makeup) claustrophobic in terms of things around, or on them. One may observe the affects of claustrophobia in the display of fear when the horse is asked to enter unfamiliar spaces (i.e., dark barns) or carry unfamiliar objects on its back (i.e., a slicker tied to the saddle). (This claustrophobic characteristic is utilized in the Rodeo with the application of a strap placed around the horse's flank, for the purposes of inducing bucking with the application of snug pressure about the loins.)

Outside of the Rodeo, horses buck because:

1. Their claustrophobic-induced fear overwhelms their abiliity to think through some problem, so they stop thinking calmly and react instinctively. They are not yielding in their mind. This is the predominate reason for bucking in pleasure horses; particularly, young horses.

2. They have learned that bucking is an effective method of causing the rider to cease and desist an action (albeit temporarily) the horse does not want to do; so they buck as a tactical action. Indeed, the horse may have learned that it can get rid of the rider through an effective buck. This tactical buck is common in seasoned horses.

So if a horse feels constrained, or thinks it will be constrained, the claustrophobic characteristic is being affected. Depending upon the individual horse (as affected by its genes), and its level of training and experiences, it may or may not buck when put into a given situation. In other words, bucking is a reaction that results from a feeling of constraint in the horse's mind.

One very effective method to get a young horse to feel constrained, and potentially to induce bucking is to:

1. While mounted, put backward pressure on it's mind, through the application of rearward pressure on its mouth; that is, take up and hold contact; basically, one is "blocking" forward movement of the horse in its mind.

2. Apply pressure to move forward by kicking/cueing with one's legs, whip, crop, spurs, etc. Basically, requiring a "blocked" horse to move forward into the block.

3. Maintain leg pressure, telling the horse that it is constrained left and right.

4. And when the horse demonstrates symptoms of confusion or reluctance (because it's being required to move forward, while constrained up front and left/right), increase the pressure on the horse by insisting more/harder, thereby tipping the horse beyond calm thinking and into the realm of reaction.

Fundamentally, the horse has nowhere to go (mentally), except up.

More seasoned horses may or may not handle their mental reaction with bucking; in schools, they typically exhibit other evasive behaviors; such as evading the bit, bulging, throwing the head, etc. Unless, of course, if they've learned to buck tactically. But all are not yielding.

One trains a horse not to buck (and rear) by teaching the horse to yield mentally. That is, to mentally accept the constraint put upon it. This can certainly be accomplished while mounted; but requires training of yielding within the context of a school movement, simultaneously with all the other skills required of the particular school movment. Basically, the horse is asked to learn several things simultaneously, in parallel, rather than serially.

However, if training for yielding is a primary (and prerequisite) training objective, and it should be, because yielding is foundational, then it can be done on the ground through the application of Parelli, Lyons, or many other training methods. And it's also easier to accomplish on the ground. Then, later on in the context of school movements, the horse already knows how to yield softly.

Best regards,
Harry

[Lovecat]

I was with you until the last 2 paragraphs, Harry... then it all went a bit pear-shaped!

I've got a John Lyons book but, having read it cover to cover only a few weeks ago I don't recall anything about teaching the horse to yield mentally, other than the basic 'dominance' thing. Maybe I'm too practical a person, but I didn't find his book that helpful - I'm afraid I need a kind of step 1) first do this, step 2) then do that, kind of approach if I'm going to get to grips with it - I'll re-read, but I don't think I've understood what you're getting at at all (but then that could well be because it's 5.45pm and I've been looking at economic forecasts all day!)

Thank you for a most comprehensive explanation of the bucking thing, however!:)

[Tootsie4U]

This might not be where Harry was going with it, but check out "Give to the bit" or "Baby gives" in the John Lyons book. That technique is all about teaching the horse to yield in his mind.

[Harry Hobbes]

This might not be where Harry was going with it, but check out "Give to the bit" or "Baby gives" in the John Lyons book. That technique is all about teaching the horse to yield in his mind.
Tootsie has it. "Giving" is a physical action resulting from a mental "yield". No animal can "give" if it will not yield mentally (although it can be physically compulsed; but we don't want compulsion, we want willingness); so when we train a horse to yield (through the mechanism of physical "giving"), we have set up acceptance and willingness in the horse: In its mind. And where the mind goes, the butt follows. :p

Lyons, Parelli, Banks, et al, use action-step oriented training techniques (and necessarily so) which in reality, affect the horse's mind via physical actions. At their essence, their techniques actually build positive and productive mental behaviors into the horse and handler; such as yielding and willingness. This is why they are all so adamantly against force as a training technique. They are targetting a willing yielding in the horse's mind.

And this is why you may often see my posts refer to mental attributes (and training for them) as being "foundational".

A horse will do just about anything for a human; but, only if it yields willingly in its mind.

All of Parelli's Games and Lyons various techniques affect the mental aspect of the horse, which is where the foundation is: in it's mind.
...Maybe I'm too practical a person, but I didn't find his book that helpful - I'm afraid I need a kind of step 1) first do this, step 2) then do that, kind of approach if I'm going to get to grips with it -
Not anything wrong nor incorrect with your approach; this is how I teach my trainees. However, try to think in terms of how each exercise or step affects the horse's mind as you ask for a physical action. For example, as you ask for a bend (or whatever), evaluate what you think the affect is within the horse's mind. Is it willing? Did it yield "mentally"? Or is it not accepting mentally, but performing physically?

In the context of your original post, your horse's behavior says "NO!, I don't want to!" (For whatever reason in the horse's mind, it's not yielding.) So the thing to do when this occurs is to drop back to something that the horse can do (that is, lower the pressure), then build back up step-by-step to where the problem occurred (as Lyons says in his books), working on a soft yield in the horse's mind at all times.
...Right rein was stiffer, but he still went well.
This was your first indicator that all was not well in the horse's mind. This would have been a good point in time to spend time working on a soft yielding right rein, before going on. Then when he no longer exhibited stiffness right/left at the walk (he's got a soft yield both directions), a soft trot could have been tried.

Does this help make sense of it all?

Best regards,
Harry

[Lovecat]

Thanks Harry, I appreciate the point you're making and I understand where you're coming from (I think!), but this happened AFTER we'd finished working on collection.

I wasn't asking for any kind of bend at all at the point where he bucked, we were moving on to something he finds far easier (bouncing around the school in his wobbly canter!) - could he have thought 'oh god, here we go to this bl**dy corner, she's going to want me to bend again'? and so gone into a strop? Or am I anthropomorphosising yet again?!;)

He's still very much a baby at 6, unbalanced and pretty much unschooled (and a big, heavy horse into the bargain), hence his general stiffness all over. We didn't do a great amount of work on bending but you're right, there was a definite willingness on one side but not the other.

I will re-read Lyons & see if I can work out any practical applications therefrom...

[Stella2]

Cathy, are you sure that he finds canter easier? As you know, Patrick is at a similar stage in his education and I, and my instructor, feel that he finds canter in the school a real effort. When they are unbalanced they naturally rush on their forehand to kind of 'catch up with themselves'. To 'come back' a bit and canter around the relatively small space of an arena demands quite a bit in terms of balance. Patrick only does it on a good day. If he is tense at all, we leave canter for another day.

Just a thought - it might be different for Murph

Have a good ride on Saturday. I plan to ride Patrick out then too after a few weeks of not doing due to being off colour (me not him). I'm taking him out alone and after a break that gives me cause for apprehension too. I'll send you good vibes and you send them to me? :)

[Lovecat]

Totally, Ann[:D] You're a lot braver than I am! Good vibes heading your way now!

Apparently he had his usual mounting block issue last night & this time kicked out at a guy who was trying to help by pushing his bum back around - I was told he got a good smack for it! - and he was really listless and unco-operative in the school thereafter, so I'm wondering if there isn't some underlying issue here. My friend regularly rides him on Thursday and normally he's a very good boy, so it's not unfamiliarity, etc.

The saddle fitter is coming on Monday so I'll let you know what transpires. In the 4 months I've had him he's filled out quite a lot - I meant to get it checked over last month but he seemed to be going so well it slipped my mind amidst all the other issues (bad, bad mummy!) - so in a way I almost hope that that is all that's bothering him....

God, I wish they could talk!!

[Stella2]

Cathy, you have a mounting issue too?. I also have that with Patrick and it drives me nuts. I've done loads of work on it, been very patient, even tried clicker training for it yesterday. He's great with a target, but standing was worse than ever. I hate that I need an assistant to mount. He swings off to the right and I'm reluctant to use the 'tap him over with a schooling whip on the right' approach because I think it would upset him and make it worse. What does Murph do re mounting?

[nutkin]

I have had the mounting problem previously and found that the best way to deal with it was to hold the right rein shorter than the left so as they swing towards you rather than away from you. Also reward standing still with a carrot or other such *** bit once you are on board. That way they look forward to you getting on as they know they will be rewarded once you are onboard. This may mean you have to carry titbits with you if you need to get off whilst on a ride, but believe me this method works for me.

[Stella2]

Unfortunately, the shorter right rein doesn't prevent Patrick swinging away (damn all that supplying work I've done with him!). He will stand nicely if someone stands in front of him with a mint, so I'm about to move to someone standing in front of him, but me giving him a treat after I'm on as you suggest, gradually having the 'assistant' standing further and further away (please let this work .....). I have never done the leaning forward giving a treat from the saddle. I expect to either drop it because my hand is too open or get bitten because its not open enough!

[Lovecat]

Damn that suppling work... LOL Stella2! :D

I suspect that Murph would be so obsessed with the prospect of a treat that he wouldn't stand still until he got it out of me... the other day I had been chewing minty gum and even though I'd removed it before going anywhere near him he was still all over me like a cheap suit looking for it! I'd hoped that continually circling him around when he wouldn't stand nicely would convince him that it was less hassle for him to stand still than it was to misbehave, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in... I will try the treats method, anything is worth a go!

The annoying thing was that he was an absolute angel with the mounting block for the first month he was here and suddenly he developed a problem with it. He either walks straight past it, swings his bum right out and stands facing me, waits until I've just put my foot in the stirrup and walks off (great fun!) or else swerves away from it on approach. Until last night, he was fine if someone stood with him, but if he's going to start kicking:rolleyes: I can hardly ask for volunteers to hold him for me! If I walk him to the mounting block and stand in front of him he will stand quite nicely, but the minute I go round to get on, he's off....

He's very, very good at being ground mounted, and in the school I've stood on an upturned bin and mounted him from the fence with no problems at all - he just seems to have developed a dislike for the mounting block....

My only consolation is that someone else on the yard has just bought an ex-racehorse and she can't even get near him to mount unless he's got a man on either side of him and a nosebag - there but for the grace of God and all that!!

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Lovecat
Thanks Harry, I appreciate the point you're making and I understand where you're coming from (I think!), but this happened AFTER we'd finished working on collection.


The reason it happened AFTER is because he's got a long fuse ;)

[Sidesaddlelady]

It's very obvious but we often overlook it. If your horse has taken to bucking out of the blue look for the cause. Have his saddle and his back checked to make sure the cause isn't physical.

If you are convinced after the necessary checks that he is being naughty try and get him schooled in a side saddle. It is THE most humane and effective way of curing a confirmed bucker - they just get bored when they see that they can't get you off their backs. My grandfather used to use this wheeze with both ladies' and gentlemen's horses and it was a well known strategem in the 19th and early 20th century among grooms and horse dealers. (I know from whence I speak as I was once carted in side saddle twice round the manege by an 18hh monster who was determined to buck me off - you don't need to ask who got tired first. I just sat there as if I was on a rocking horse - it was really rather pleasant!)

[Sidesaddlelady]

Has this thread been modded? I have a message saying Janette has replied on it but I can't find the posting

[Lovecat]

I don't know about modding, but as it's been resurrected I thought I'd add that Murph threw in two HUMUNGOUS bucks last night when going into canter, one at the beginning and one when he looked like he was going to fall back into trot and I applied a little more leg - I'm assuming this is because he's unbalanced (I've read that some horses buck into canter if they're too much on the forehand...true? false?) and it's not just narkiness? - but I have to say his bucks are nearly as comfy as his canter and rather exhilarating - like sitting on a sofa strapped to a roller-coaster! - so if they remain at this level I'm no longer scared of him doing it...

His back and saddle have now been checked and the saddle did need a little restuffing as it had 'fallen' since purchase, so he's got no excuse now!

Sidesaddlelady - I would love to try sidesaddle, just to see what it's like, but would not know where to start! Maybe one day... your experience with the 18hhander sounds like fun!