Bitless bridles? Why the sudden increase in usage?

[anuvb]

Okay, so I'm confused! I used to think I knew about bitless bridles, but recently there have been a few highlighted on this site that I haven't ever used myself, nor can I find them in any of the books on tack I posess, so I need some help. ;)

What are the relative merits of bitless vs bitted? Other than that of a horse not liking a bit in it's mouth.

I was always taught that hackamores were quite severe bridles if not used correctly, and at one time you never saw anyone ride in them, but they seem to be in fashion a lot recently. I have seen them used by a number of what I would call novice riders who perhaps don't have the quietest hands on the planet and it seems to me that the horses are just as forced into an outline as some of those in a bit. Yet I hear people talking about them as if they are much kinder than putting bit in the horses mouth. So confusion starts to creep in. :confused:

How does a hackamore vary from say, a scrawbrig or one of the other less conventional bridles? How successfully can you school in the scrawbrig/other newer bitless and get really good flatwork?
What are the downsides of bitless?

:confused:

[Zingy]

I was wondering a similar thing the other day anuvb. I was in robbies and some of their bitless stuff looked like instruments of torture!

I have used a bitless bridle though - the no bit one that Yann mentioned a while ago. To cut a long story short, Yog was recovering from various injuries and was very insecure when he was ridden. He developed this habit of nervously chewing on the bit, and I wondered if a bitless bridle would help. He was easier to ride in a headcollar than a bridle, but I felt it didn't give me enough control, so I borrowed a bitless.

These are completely different to hackamores. Hackamores work off poll pressure, which can be quite severe in inexperienced hands. If I put Yog in one of those he'd be straight over backwards - he goes ballistic at the poll pressure from a hanging cheek snaffle!

In my opinion, it would be difficult to force a horse into an outline from a bitless bridle (excluding hackamores, and incidentally these are not considered by many people to be true bitless bridles). Realistically they give you less control and your horse has to be trained to go off weight aids etc rather than reins. It worries me that they are becoming more fashionable and that people may start using them for that reason rather than for the horse. Having said that, I certainly want to get one for Yog - he went very well in it. I just hope the fashion trend is a result of people taking more interest in things such as natural horsemanship and more subtle ways of controlling their horse, rather than just thinking it's the in thing to do.

[Yann]

Just like the upsurge of treeless and other alternative type saddles I think people are becoming more aware and prepared to try out different things, which can be both a good and bad thing depending on how it's done!

I'm not sure that anyone who posts on here uses a hackamore on a regular basis, the bitless bridles used by people on here are either the parelli type halter - not strictly a bridle, or variations on the scawbrigg type theme. They are all relatively mild, certainly nothing like as severe as a hackamore. You can school very well in the type I have (www.nobitbridle.co.uk) but there are no shortcuts to an 'on the bit' head carriage using it as there is no action on the mouth or jaw and only limited poll pressure. I have been able to get my horse to soften in it, but not consistently and as I use it for hacking rather than schooling haven't worked at it.

I got mine purely because we discovered it was possible to hack out in a headcollar safely and more comfortably so got something that fitted properly to do the job. My horse goes very nicely in a bit too, but if we don't need it I don't use one. The downside is that you have less control in this type, so they aren't for everyone.

[chev]

I think part of it is that many NH trainers ride and train using bitless bridles of one sort or another... and so a trend develops - much like the trend for bubble gags in showjumping a while back, or sweet iron bits after Monty mentioned them. People are always looking for a way to improve their horse's way of going, and will I think follow examples set (however unintentionally) by prominant horsemen and women.

I rode my Finrod in a bitless because he loathed bits - result of an accident. He went really well in it - but we didn't do much more than basic schooling and hacking. I doubt you'd manage to achieve an awful lot of refined work in them, although I'm sure someone with more experience will correct me on that one!

I would generally start a horse with a bit. A mild bit affords more refinement than a bitless and is a lot kinder in novice hands - and since I'd like horses I train to be suitable for any rider, I'd prefer to try and ensure their tack made this feasible too. Bitless bridles are great for teething youngsters though - meaning you don't neccessarily have to stop work during periods of mouth tenderness.

I feel it's important to understand the mechanics of horses and bitting to make an informed choice. Although it's assumed the mouth is more sensitive it's not always the case. Horses happily eat thistles without flinching. More discomfort can sometimes be caused through putting pressure on the sensitive parts of the nose, poll, curb and cheeks than on the mouth. It depends a lot on the horse in question. Hackamores are not gentler, or milder, or kinder than bitted bridles simply because they have no bit. Ask yourself why trainers advocate the use of a pressure halter with difficult horses, and why that often succeeds where handling in a bridle has failed.

I think also cultural differences play a part. Here in the UK we rely a lot more on bit (or bitless!) aids for control. Most Western riders have a far, far lighter contact with the mouth, and the horse's balance and outline is completely different. So using some types of bitless that seem to have fantastic results on the very light Western trained horses possibly won't have the same effect on our horses, because of the vast differences in style and carriage. This might explain the appearance of pulling a horse into an outline in English riding - because we use the bridle differently and our horses carry themselves differently full stop.

We have a kind of "pick'n'mix" attitude towards riding and equipment these days - we ride in an English outline in a Western saddle and expect the two styles to meld together. The current rise in popularity of bitless probably comes partly as a result of the same thinking. I don't feel it's possible to achieve the same level of flatwork with a scawbrig as you would with a bit because it's designed to work with a totally different way of going. For the same reason you'd be unlikely to see a Grand Prix dressage horse in an Australian Stock saddle and Western curb. Equally you'll never see a really good cow horse in a pelham and dressage saddle!

Wow what a long rambly post. Sorry. Hope there's something of interest in there! :)

[galadriel]

I wouldn't really class a mechanical hackamore in the same catagory as other bitless types.

I can tell you why I ride without a bit: I started riding both my horses bareback/halter&lead rope because they were off the track, and getting out tack made one of them very tense, which influenced the other. Now, when I ride Kat in a halter she views it as relaxation time; when I use a bit she seems to realize that I intend to do more.

After the halter/lead rope stage, when I went to bit Duchess, she hated them all. I finally learned why the last time she had her teeth done: the upper left molar closest to the bit had broken down the middle, all the way to the gum, and half of it come off--at some point in her past. Wearing a bit next to a broken tooth must have been so painful! It's mostly grown out now, but her aversion to bits remains. I can get her to relax with a Happy Mouth more than with other bits, but she is most relaxed and forward without any bit at all. I tend to ride her in a "jumping hackamore":
http://www.saddleuptack.com/webcat/images/item880_1.jpg
attached in place of a bit. It makes "contact" a little different (it's sort of a noseband with a bit of curb action, no leverage) but I can still get her to work her back well using it. She's quite responsive to it really.

[chev]

I'd put a hackamore in a different category too - but both German and English hackamores go hand in hand with the more European style of riding, that is more on the forehand and more reliant on the horse's head for control.

The other types of bitless like the bosal and so on are the ones generally becoming more popular, and tend to be seen in Western riding and NH - which we in Europe are currently borrowing heavily from.

Just making sure I was clear! Also would like to point out that I don't neccessarily think using a bit is preferable to going bitless, or vice versa - I think it depends on the horse. I would still start a horse using a bit though. I'd rather have the option of both, and do feel it's easier to introduce a bit earlier in training even if you never use it again.

[Harry Hobbes]

Well said chev.

anuvb,

Additional opinion regarding "hackamores" can be found here:
http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27822&highlight=hackamore+question

Best regards,
Harry

[anuvb]

Whoops, I obviously haven't made myself very clear in my post. :o

I've used hackamores in the past and do know the ins and outs of them, I guess I was more interested in how the other bitless bridles ride in comparison.

Going back to the hackamore thing: in my head, I was certain that hackamores were quite severe in in-experienced hands, relying on a lot of poll and nose pressure. In my head, I was of th eopinion that too much contact on a hackamore could give the same effect as too much contact with a bit in.
At various local-ish events I've seen more and more of these used by riders and as a result was getting confused by some of the ideas that were being fed to me by various people about how they were riding bitless and so on in hackamores with long shanks. Somewhere, someone is giving out the idea that thse bridles are a bitless equivalent of the kind that you see in Parelli work. But in my mind they are not really a bitless equivalent. I think my confusion stemmed from people sounding so convincing about their choice for the use of the mechanical/english hackamore and why they made it that I was beginning to think I had not only been taught incorrectly but in my experience of using one had come to the completely wrong conclusion. ;)

So, anyway, I think my post really boils down to two separate questions:

One, are hackamores severe in inexperienced hands and if so why are some people stating that they are a milder alternative?

(Somehow, I think the answer lies in my ongoing gripe about people not really knowing what they are doing with tack.)

Two, how does something like the hackamore compare with the "newer" bitless bridles and what can or can't you achieve in terms of schooling in these kinds of bitless? Is the level of directional control any good in these and how and where exactly do they apply the pressure? For people who are really pro bitless, is applying the pressure on the nose any"kinder" than applying it to the mouth with a really good choice and fit of bit?

I'm not wanting to be controversial, I just want to understand something I've never used!


:D

I feel it's important to understand the mechanics of horses and bitting to make an informed choice

Oh, I completely agree Chev! :D

[galadriel]

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/hackamor.htm
"Depending on the type of chain and the length of the shanks, a mechanical hackamore can be mild (a wide, flat, sheepskin-padded leather noseband, short, back-curved shanks, and a padded or fleece-covered curb strap) moderately severe (a narrower, unpadded noseband, longer, straighter shanks, and a wide double chain) or very severe (a hard, rounded noseband, long forward-curving shanks, and a thin single chain). [...]

There is even a hackamore called "the Cruncher" that was popular in the States for some time -- it combined extremely long shanks with a piece of metal that would grind into the lower jaw when pressure was applied to the reins. Quick hard pressure -- a good pull on the reins -- could actually break the horse's jaw, hence the name.."

[anuvb]

Ugh, sounds ghastly.

No, these hackamores are at the very least the moderately severe ones, though I think somewhere in design between teh mild to moderately severe. I'll try and dig out some pics for you all.

[chev]

In answer to question one I think the answer lies partly in the fact that many people do assume that if a bridle is bitless it will be mild - lumping hackamores in with other no-bit types. In fact you are quite right - the hackamores with shanks can be extremely severe if the rider is not careful and fails to understand that this is not the mild Parelli style bitless. So yes... back to the problem of reading about "bitless" bridles and applying what you've read without understanding the different types of bitless and their actions.

The action of English and German hackamores is very different to that of the other types - which are much milder but also much better suited to their origins - that is Western riding and its derivatives - rather than English styles. So to answer whether they are as effective - I'd say far more so in their place, but perhaps not so much within the world of European riding.

Is it kinder to apply pressure to the head rather than the mouth? Some horses definitely think so. I think the danger is that too much pressure can be applied without realising - pull on the mouth too much and it's usually fairl obvious straight away. Put too much on a hackamore certainly (and, I'd assume, other bitless bridles too) and chances are the horse will suffer nerve damage before you realise there's a problem.

Hope that answers the queries in some way...

[anuvb]

Hmm, the next two pics are about as a close as I can get of the kind of hackamores which seem to be coming into fashion right now....

The first is a german one, and the second is an English. So in harshness stakes how harsh or mild is the aciton of these would you say?

Personally I prefer the look of the of the English, but for me I still wouldn't be happy with an in-experienced rider applying that level of pressure onto the nose.

[anuvb]

And the english one. It's still not quite like the one I saw the other day, as I would think that had longer shanks, but it's the closest match I could find.

[chev]

The German one is very severe - no padding on the nosepiece, very long shanks, and a chain curb - lots of pressure asnd definitely not for the novice user. An experienced rider used to hackamores would be able to use it to fairly refined effect, in the same way a double bridle offers more refinement than a pelham, but it is a harsh bridle.

The English one is what I used on my cob. The noseband is wider, and padded, so gentler. The curb is leather and again, wider, so again, much less harsh. The shanks are about average for an English hackamore. Obviously the longer the shanks the more leverage is applied, and the harsher the action.

Neither example is particularly gentle, and neither should be used without care and consideration. If the rider understands how they work and even better has a few lessons with an instructor in how to use them they can be very useful. To assume these bridles are gentle is dangerous. Pulling hard on either of these can easily damage nerve bundles in the horse's face.

I have to add that I had lessons on a horse years ago who wore an English hackamore. He was never used for novices because of the hackamore. Remember the days when every school horse you saw wore an eggbutt snaffle and still went well?!!

[Volvic]

Anuvb - answering your questions from my experience.

1) Hackamores are severe bits, particularly in inexperienced hands. I was considering using one on Cloudy, but I just didnt trust myself to use it correctly. I had a hyper arab x welsh on loan for a few months & her owner told me that they'd tried her in a hackamore & with just one squeeze on the reins she went from a canter to halt! This was not like her at all & just because of the major reaction they got, they also didnt feel that they should use a hackamore on her because of the same reasons as me. Personally, I that think people who say that hackamores (like the pics above) are milder are misinformed, because these bits put so much pressure on the sensitive poll area.

2) As far as I'm aware, the bitless bridles such as scawbrigs are nowhere near as severe as hackamores because they dont have as much leverage (if any). IMHO, if you want to do any more schooling than the basic walk, trot and canter, you'd be better off in a bit as you can give finer aids than in a bitless. I think its more difficult to turn a horse in a bitless bridle such as a Scawbrig than in a hackamore or a normal bit, so again IMHO for more advanced schooling a bit is better. I think that the main reason that people go bitless, apart from NH methods, is for horses with mouth problems, so in that case, yes it definately is kinder to put pressure on places other than the mouth.

2 vaguely related things to do with hackamores etc... (more of a rant!:) )
1* Why do some riders (showjumpers in particular) INSIST on making their horses wear a gag AND a hackamore. THE POOR HORSES!
2* This was pointed out to me the other day & i'd never thought of it before - we break our horses in quite strangely. We teach them as foals that pressure on the noseband of a headcollar = stop, but as soon as we want to ride them, we stick a bit in their mouths & expect them to understand that pressure on the bit & the bit alone = stop.

Rant over :D!!!
Sorry this is so long :D , but I had to have my little rant!

[Silver1]

I had the opportunity to go bitless with Mear, but it wasn't with a bitless bridle. I ride her in the halter all the time, and one day a friend let me borrow her bridle as I'd forgotten mine. It was one of those halter/bit combinations, but she couldn't get the bit hooked on properly, so she simply attached the reins to the bridle.

I knew I didn't have a bit...but I forgot after I started riding. She acted just as if I had one!

[casey]

I have used both English and German Hackamore's and found with a sympathetic hand they are wonderful. Particulary in horses that need reschooling, due to having a hard mouth.

Not to quote the cliche, a bit is as strong as the hands using it.

Do you think though, bitless bridles are becoming popular because horses mouths are being ruined, due to the riders skill being replaced with bigger bits for control? Am I making sense

I am not at all suggesting this about anyone on this board, but I think its an interesting subject. :)

[Tootsie4U]

I think the popularity could be a direct function of people becoming more aware that "less is more". ;)

[chev]

Interesting point casey. It's something that seems to happen more these days. When I was learning to ride, generally the horses suitable for novices went in plain snaffles. The horses bought by first-time owners usually did too. First time owners tended to buy snaffle-mouthed schoolmasters.

Now that more novices and first-time owners are buying young, green horses, it's noticable that those horses tend to sport much stronger bits. This is not to say I feel that people should always buy schoolmasters and steer clear of unmade horses - I don't. But a fair number of people seem to have lessons, buy the horse and stop the lessons. That, I feel, is a mistake. Then, when they come across problems they can't fix, because both they and the horse are still on a steep learning curve, in goes the gag, or the bubble bit... and so it starts.

When the horse starts to object to a bit... on goes the hackamore. Again, this is not a criticism aimed at anyone here!

I do also realise that the vast array of bits and bridles available to us now means that far more horses are wearing a bit that suits them (as opposed to the eggbutt snaffle!). It's a pity that with this huge choice comes a lack of understanding.

[casey]

Do you think thats what it is, or are people finding it harder and harder to bit their horses.

I'll put the question out there....Would you use a bitless if your horse went perfectly well in a bit???

And did you revert to a bitless because the damage to the mouth had already been done? (not necessarily by the present owner)

Oops cross posted with you chev....very good points you make;)

[Mehitabel]

One, are hackamores severe in inexperienced hands and if so why are some people stating that they are a milder alternative?

(Somehow, I think the answer lies in my ongoing gripe about people not really knowing what they are doing with tack.)

Two, how does something like the hackamore compare with the "newer" bitless bridles and what can or can't you achieve in terms of schooling in these kinds of bitless? Is the level of directional control any good in these and how and where exactly do they apply the pressure? For people who are really pro bitless, is applying the pressure on the nose any"kinder" than applying it to the mouth with a really good choice and fit of bit?


1 - yes, a true hackamore (the english/german ones, not just any random bitless) is pretty 'severe' - in that it applies pressure to the nose, chin and poll, just like a pelham applies pressure to mouth, curb groove and poll. different to a snaffle that only applies mouth pressure. so defining 'severity' as how many areas of the head it acts on, then a hackamore is a severe bit.
i think it's about perceptions - people think a bit in the mouth is harsh, 'unnatural' (don't even get me started on that!) etc and think a hackamore is automatically 'kind' because it isn't in the mouth.
and yes, i agree with your ongoing gripe. i think the upswing in livery yards that can do it all for a novice owner leads to people getting a horse when they dont' know a lot, and then thinking they do know a lot!

2 - i ride a pony sometimes who wears a scawbrig - mouth sawed to pieces at a previous yard, now very anxious about contact and yaws constantly with a bit.
i used to ride the pony previously, before she went away to the bad yard, so i can compare. she will work in an outline much the same as she ever did,. but is less anxious about her mouth. she always had a soft mouth and would back off the bit at the slightest excuse - in the scawbrig you can take more of a contact and ask her to work into it without her backing off and hollowing.

i've not noticed any problems with lateral control, but then given her mouth anyway, i never used much rein so am still riding her the same. riders who know her less well though, can ride more 'normally' as she is less sensitive to rein pressure. previously, you'd take up a normal rein contact and have her ears up your nose.

i would always bit a horse too - should i ever have to sell them, i'd like them to be as versatile as possible.

[anuvb]

I agree Chev, that I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that many more riders are buying their own horses these days. That in itself isn't a problem, but on the otherhand many riders seem to be buying horses which aren't suitable for them and instead of seeking long term help to sort out their difficulties in communication are resorting to other methods to produce their results.

Remember the days when every school horse you saw wore an eggbutt snaffle and still went well?!!

Yes, I do - what's changed ? The lack of expertise? Or has horse mouth structure changed over the years? I think it's highly likely to be the former rather than the latter. Also I do think that the increased usage of such things as the internet and magazines etc makes a lot of people so called experts without them having either researched or experienced it first hand or sought the advice of someone with the necessary experience.

So for example, people graze between techniques and pick up on things that appeal to them but don't necessarily follow it up to see what else is involved in adapting something for their own use. I know on this board we have had many discussions about whether we all follow one type of NH or not, and on the whole I would say that I take what I fancy and leave other bits from so called trainers. However, I do try to take each bit of any training system in context as without it the training system, whether that be a piece of tack or a method, is open to misinterpretation. It's beginning to worry me that people aren't doing this (not on this board by the way, just what I have come across in "real life"etc. adn I'm only opening it up to discussion here ;) ). I'm one of the first people to advocate trying to determine the best for your horse, and I do understand that it can be down to trial and error but there is an group of people that worry me. Those that graze ideas rather than digest them.

I think the less is more issue is also another valid point. Especially with the more NH type bitless bridles and I'm hoping that someone like Showjumper or one of the others like Joy70 who is currently converting to bitless, will contribute at some point with their own experiences of the more headcollar style bitless bridles.

No I wouldn't go bitless if my horse rode well in a bit. Purely because it wouldn't suit my needs and I wouldn't have the control on a hack. I was interested in what you had to say Casey about the hackamores in the pictures, as I have ridden in both and yes, found them very effective, but I just can't get over some of the people riding in them without a second thought.

Hmm, looks like I'm rambling on now. I'm just trying to get my thoughts on this in order as I've been musing it over for a while now! I'm really appreciating the input thank you everyone :D

[Tootsie4U]

My goal in the very near future is to take Bonfire to the ring in just a halter (that to me is considered bitless...) He's a green horse, Im a green-ish rider. I started him in a bradoon snaffle (single joint thin snaffle) and switched him to a full cheek french link... on my way to no bit at all. Do you see my trend... always striving to go as natural/light as possible. I feel it is a huge testimony to how well the horse accepts and submits to the partnership of the rider and thats what I want.

As chev says, I wont convert to the bitless way entirely. It will be a treat for the two of us, our real work will conitue in the snaffle.

For me, bitless is merely a test of our partnership. Its not because he's been ruined in this other type or that he wont go in that type... its about the trust, the faith, the willingness for me. But its personal, a year ago I would have never dreamed it possible with this horse.

[casey]

I believe that alot of rider's on this site a thinking riders. I have found this thread inparticular well written and informative.
But like you, I am exasperated by people that only look at the short term fix for their horses.

I was once told "if you have the money for a show, or a lesson....pick the lesson" and I sooo believe that to be the right choice.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by casey
I'll put the question out there....Would you use a bitless if your horse went perfectly well in a bit???

As I said above, I use halter/lead rope with Kat when we're relaxing. Truth is I would probably use it all of the time, however dressage requires a bit. Thus she must learn to respond to a bit. And doing most of our real work in a bit, she is more attentive when she has one on (not a difference in responsiveness to signals, but in expectation of the job ahead).

One summer I had (more or less) a lease horse who I'd ridden/competed during the year. I rode him bareback in a halter the whole summer; I occasionally put a saddle on for longer rides, but never a bit.

If the goal for the horse doesn't include competitions where s/he will need to be in a bit, and s/he is perfectly happy without one, why use one?

[HairyCob]

In response to anuvb's hope that someone who is currently converting to bitless will contribute..........!

I rode HC out for the second time today in his no-bit-bridle. I don't really class myself as a good or experienced rider, even after nearly 25years of riding- I am a happy hacker, nothing more, so cannot really comment on many of the issues raised here. What I can comment on is my decision to try bitless and how we are getting on!

I decided to go down the bitless route for a number of reasons, but primarily due to the lack of control I have over HC in a bit- that may sound a bit backward!

When I got him nearly four years ago, (at age 3 and a half) HC was sold to me as a snaffle mouthed bombproof 4 and a half yo..... the reality as many of you will know from my posts has been quite different!

I'll try to keep this short- he has had recurrent problems with his teeth- had probably never seen a dentist before I got him, and the first time he saw one it was as a direct result of his reaction to being ridden in a snaffle when I first had him- very nearly put me and a very experienced rider in hospital- I have never seen a horse so determined to get someone off!. Anyway, mouth was obvious place to look for a problem and the dentist duly came and took out six teeth. Ouch!

Since then he has seen the dentist about every six months or so- and I always know when he needs to, his behaviour tells me!

My dentist suggested various changes of bit in an attempt to get one he was comfortable in, and was controllable in, so we have been through various snaffles, happy mouth straight bar, happy mouth straight bar full cheek, french link snaffle (full cheek), pelham and bought but never used a hackamore- the hackamore just looked too severe for me to even think about!

He isn't too bad in the happy mouth full cheek or in the french link full cheek, but no matter what bit he has, steering has been a major issue- he will just set himself against the bit and go the way he wants. No amount of leg, seat, voice or rein aids will change his mind, and he will spin round and round until either I get off and lead him or he gets pi***d off and bolts in the direction he wants to go!

Now this may sound slightly kooky to most of you, but I am a great believer in intuition, and also that if we 'listen' hard enough, our horses will tell us what the problem is. I have always felt srongly that HC just didn't like having contact with a bit in his mouth- maybe due to memories of pain, maybe it's just plain uncomfortable, I don't know! HC is a very sweet natured boy, and continued to allow me to 'bit' him, but would turn his head away, put it up in the air etc to avoid being bridled... if I put his saddle on and offered him his headcollar however, he would put his nose in it for me! This led me to thinking 'bitless'!

I am not brave enough to attempt to ride in 'just' a headcollar- psychologically I needed something more! I also don't have access to a school or arena or even a corner of a field to 'play' in, so have always tried out new bits etc on a hack..... gulp!

Anyway, I said I'd try to keep this short, so the long and the short of it is that we are now investigating the no-bit bridle, as reccomended by Yann and Rio. I have taken him out in it twice now, both times with his bridle (minus noseband and browband!) over the top- first time I had to pick up the reins to the bit once, today I wouldn't have worried about it if you had taken the bit away altogether. He has been an angel in it (so far!), steering is 100%- even when he has wanted to go the other way, I have managed to take him 'my way' without a spin or a fight. Brakes are just as good as with a bit too.

The main difference I have noticed is that he is a lot more relaxed- he spooks less and seems to listen to me more, he isn't in a major hurry to complete turns, and isn't in a major hurry to come home- in fact today he very clearly told me he wanted to go further than we did- by attempting to turn for the long route- no fight ensued tho, I just asked him to go 'my way' and he went.

I have found that I am using my legs and seat more to guide him, which can only be a good thing- I am sure it is psychological, thinking I must make it very clear what I want cause I don't have a bit!

Anyway, so far so good, and next time I ride I won't be putting the bridle with the bit on him at all- I just don't think I need it!:D

edited to say..... just so no one thinks I am looking for a quick fix... I have had back and saddle checked- and bought an expensive HM saddle and had it fitted and have tried all the reccomendations I have had from people here with regard to schooling whilst on hacks before trying the bitless! My next step was going to be sending him away to be re-schooled (or should I say first time schooled properly!) but I want to avoid putting him through the trauma of moving if at all possible, so the bitless is my last hope before I order the horse transport!;)

[Silver1]

Casey: Both me and Mear are happy with our bit, I chose a special, very very VERY expensive bit (It was pushing $50 for the bit alone) But its really well made, it is a jointed snaffle bit with a patented pinchless design, and it is also designed so it "pushes" from the opposite side rather then pulls. Its made of black satin steel on the rings with an overlay of german silver, the part that goes in her mouth is made of stainless steel with copper inlays. Its also fairly thin for a bit, because her last one didn't fit her well, the fatness was too uncomfortable for her and she hesitated on taking it just a brief second long enough for me to understand she didn't really like it. (But was being polite because she is a well brought up lady.)

I still have the old bit and put it in her keepsakes drawer, along with her first shoes since I had her, 2 hawk feathers we found together and her bridlepath hair for the first trim we survived together. ;)

Anyway back to the subject on hand since I've gone WAY off topic.

Do you think thats what it is, or are people finding it harder and harder to bit their horses.

I found it very, very hard to find a good bit for Mear. Everyone who has been around me for five minutes know that I adore my horse. I'm the one in front of you at the florist shop clutching a bag of carrots and asking them to wrap them up like a dozen roses you know. ;)

I didn't want ANYTHING that would hurt her, especially if the inevitable came and I managed to bump her in the mouth, which I have managed to do a few times. (She's been very polite and forgiving about that too.) I wanted a bit that fit her PERFECTLY, and that SHE liked. I picked up her current bit because I thought it looked pretty...I kept it because of the list of all its redeeming features. I knew I had a winner when I went to try it on, didn't have a bridle and thought "Well, I'll just hold it on and see if it fits"

She wouldn't let go of it...

I'll put the question out there....Would you use a bitless if your horse went perfectly well in a bit???

I don't think so. We like our bit and she obviousely thinks its fun wearing it. But it IS nice to know that if we don't have our bridle, we can still go riding and have fun, bit or not bit.

And did you revert to a bitless because the damage to the mouth had already been done? (not necessarily by the present owner)

I bought a young horse like Mear because I didn't want to have to deal with all the problems that older horses seem to have. (Present company excluded) I was terrified I'd get into the habit of dealing monster kicks every time I wanted to go somewhere because the horse was dead to the leg. I was used to young horses by then and a simple touch on the sides was enough to send them off with out having to deal in kicks. Going on a trail ride with a schoolmaster puts me in shock mode. No matter how much I exagerate my movements, I can't get the horse to react. A scary feeling. Too many horses are unresponsive to all but the most hideous of bits because they've had so many heavy instructions the light ones pass right over them.

[Yann]

I must say that I'm not personally aware of any kind of trend towards the use of hackamores, sure you see the odd one in use at local shows but that doesn't constitute a fashion, round here at least. I can't say I've ever heard anyone lumping mechanical hackamores in with the NH / bitless thing either.

I'm no bitless evangelist or NH camp follower, we school in a hard rubber pelham because that works for us in that context. When Rio came to us she was in a french link metal snaffle and chomped on it non stop, so we tried a couple of happy mouths before we found she liked the pelham best. She isn't spoilt or problematic in any way.

Out hacking though I've always normally ridden on a very light contact, so going bitless hasn't made a lot of difference in the main, she's more comfortable though as there is nothing to fidget with now if she gets tense or tired (or get in the way of the snacks we walk past:D). She actually puts her nose in it when I offer it these days which I take as a positive sign (or frozen watchfulness;)) We still have good control if we need it and the steering is very positive.

To come back to one of the original question the particular bridle I use has cross under straps which pass through rings on the noseband and up to the headpiece, so taking up a rein puts pressure on the nose, opposite side of the face and also on the poll. The steering is therefore positive and intuitive for the horse and takes little adaption for the rider. Taking up both reins acts on the nose, both sides of the head and the poll.
The rein aids you give using this bridle tend to be a little less subtle than with a bit but then you aren't acting on quite such a sensitive part of the horse's anatomy.

I really get the impression you'd have to be popeye to do any serious damage in it as it is essentially a snug fitting headcollar with add ons, it's a million miles removed from a hackamore. A strong horse could easily ignore it and run through it if they chose to.

Well done to HC and owner, nice one:)

[shaka]

Different bitlesses have different effects. I used a bitless on Charlie for a while as he is unhappy in a bit, but I have him in a bit as he is a novice pony so therefore is not allowed to be bitless for jumping or PC.

I like bitless but only when used by good riders with good hands, as they can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

[Yann]

Just curious, what sort do you use Shaka?

[Bel]

I use a Bitless on Jack mainly because when i rode him with a bit it was nothing but a strugle..for both of us..his mouth is dead..no feeling what so ever, he'd been left too long without having his teeth checked and deveopled and adversion to the bit being in his mouth, tossed his head around as soon as u but the bridle on until u took it off. Brakes where not even in existance with his mouth no matter how hard u tried to pull him up from a gallop or a canter he still ran on. I was reluctant to ride in anything eles but a snaffle. So I got a bitless..now he's a gem..the head tossing is gone, the breaks work..and most of all he listens to what i ask of him now, for some reason he now pays attention to my leg and seat aid, where as before he ignorred them, he also responds quite well to my voice now, when i tell him to slow it up he does. In a bitless I've gone from having this tense horse who was a horror to do anything with..to a nice relaxed horse who work on a loose rein out on the trails (arean work is a no go...he hates it). I'll never put a bit in his mouth again, he's great the ay he is..I'm not even tempted to try that bit again.

Bel
by the way I ride in the Crossunder type.

[chev]

anuvb - "Yes, I do - what's changed ? The lack of expertise? Or has horse mouth structure changed over the years?"

I think it's many things. First of all, as you say, we have a wealth of information available to us now that we didn't have say, 20 odd years ago when I clearly remember the snaffle-clad school ponies. People will always try something new if they see benefits to be had - a good thing. Some people also do have a tendency to try new things just because it's new - like the grazers you mention. Bad thing.

Secondly, I think we live in a more competitive time now - where in the past a pony going well in a plain snaffle would have stayed in a snaffle, there is a tendency now for people to fiddle around to see if a Myler, or a KK, or a sweet iron with copper rollers and a central lozenge designed to prevent pinching, will make him go
even better. Good or bad? I don't know. I have to admit I feel a great affinity for the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

We had around thirty horses in the school at any one time. Around half of them belonged to the school and stayed there as lesson horses their whole lives. I remember one vulcanite mullen mouth snaffle on a mare who didn't like jointed bits, and a straight rubber snaffle on another. One mare in a Fulmer, one long-term livery (an ex racing Arab, gelded at about 18, with chronic stargazing problems) in a Dr Bristol. Everything else wore a snaffle - eggbutt or loose-ring, jointed. Most of the ponies also had successful showing, WHP, jumping or dressage careers, and would ride in a double bridle also. And yet I bet the equivalent yard today would have a vast array of bits on those ponies, individually chosen to suit. I can honestly say there wasn't a single pony there who needed a remedial bit (apart from the Arab, who might indeed have benefited from a bitless, or whatever).

Another thing I realised has happened recently thinking about it is the demise of the "breaking bit". The school I went to took horses for starting, and also bred and broke their own stock. All their youngsters were bitted with a keyed breaking bit. That's all it was used for, they never actually rode in it - but the initial mouthing was always done with it. Then again, bitting a horse these days seems to be about putting a bit in and nothing more - it was then a term used to describe a horse accepting a contact quietly, and responding to pressure on the bit. Only then were they classed as bitted. So why has the breaking bit vanished? Every horse I've used it on, or seen it used on, has accepted it happily, and developed a good soft mouth. I'm not saying it's the only way to bit a horse, and the initial introduction to a bit was always done with a plain rubber bar, but sometimes it seems that if something was simple and widely used it's now seen as inadequate.

I think you are spot on with the idea of grazing ideas rather than digesting them. Thus a piece of tack that allows a high degree of refinement and would benefit riders competing at higher levels of dressage crops up on the average happy hacker, who will never need the benefits that item brings, and who doesn't have the skill (or the interest in developing the skill) to use it.

A neighbour of ours once bought a cob mare for hacking out. They bought a bridle and rode her in a flash noseband. When I asked why they had the flash (mare didn't know how to evade, bless her) the answer was "don't know really, it just came with the bridle." Makes you wonder doesn't it!

[shaka]

Yann, I used to use an English Hackamore, but was looking at getting a crossunder

[FreedomStar]

I think that if a horse goes well in a bit, why switch to a bitless?? I've ridden horses in snaffles, full cheeks, twisted snaffles, bitless, halter...got the same results from each, I just had to ask the horse the right way. The horse I currently lease, Ebony, she's a fussy pony, and most bits she doesn't like, unless it's the thick kind, not the thinner type. Which is why she goes in a bitless, because her owner really didn't have a bit that ebony could work in happily, so she switched over to a nice, easy, bitless, and she works extremely well in it. Hackmores can provide good results if used properly. In the wrong hands, like a kimberwicke or a pelham, hackmores can do great damage. Hackmores can be so severe that if someone exerts enough pressure they can break the bone in the nose, that's how strong these are. I don't see why people ride horses in all this heavy gear and harsh bits. Most of our school horses are the ones that throw in some bucks, or can get speedy, but we have them ALL going in some form of a mild snaffle, excepting 2 horses and they go in a slow twist snaffle. I think if a horse is ridden the correct way they can go in a nice, soft snaffle. but then some horses can't really feel the snaffles or need a stronger bit for different purposes.

[Mehitabel]

i don't use a breaking bit any more, because a couple of the ponies i did with it developed the habit of putting the tongue over the bit - they certainly played with the keys more than those who i've done in a plain bit, and none of them put their tongues over. of course, i don't know whether or not these 2 would have done this anyway, but i now use a keyed bit only if the pony seems tense and unhappy with a normal one.

i'm glad there are more bits out there, overall. the little one i've just backed (petal's daughter) has a tiny tiny mouth, and is in a nathe bendy bit. her palate is too low for a jointed bit, as the joint touches the roof of her mouth, so whenever i took a contact it must have hurt, and she was putting her tongue over. no room in her mouth for a fat rubber bit, so the little nathe is ideal. she'd have been destined for an uncomfortable life if she'd been born 30 years ago!

[chev]

Fair point Es!

I think it's more the unwarranted changing of bits that concerns me - I know plenty of horses must have had a terrible time with the bits they had when choice was limited, but I also think that people tend to change and fiddle where there's no real need sometimes.

I sold a mare to a friend who went really nicely in a rubber straight bar. She was a sec C type, very strong but also very light - more suited to a small adult than a child. Didn't pull. Within around six weeks the friend had her in a three ring gag so her son could ride, and stop her. A fortnight or so after that, she had a flash and a martingale on, to stop her evading. The problem was that she simply wasn't a child's pony, and by trying to make her, all they did was spoil her.

Another rider I knew bought and backed a three year old. She rode him away in a French link snaffle, and he was going fairly well for a horse of that age. But she felt he wasn't responsive enough to the bit, and wasn't working in an outline - out came the snaffle, in went a gag.

I can think of two people who've started using hackamores in the last six months because they don't think their horses are happy with a bit (not sure why, exactly - neither of them could really say. Both are middle aged geldings who've been in the same type of bit for years.) - neither has ridden in a hackamore before, both thought it was the kinder option.

I can also think of plenty of people who have made good, informed choices about their horses' tack - there just seem to be a large number of people who don't have lessons, don't have a very wide experience and feel qualified to fit and use tack they have no real experience or knowledge of.

[Mehitabel]

certainly won't argue with you on that point!

[anuvb]

Originally posted by Es

2 - i ride a pony sometimes who wears a scawbrig - mouth sawed to pieces at a previous yard, now very anxious about contact and yaws constantly with a bit.
i used to ride the pony previously, before she went away to the bad yard, so i can compare. she will work in an outline much the same as she ever did,. but is less anxious about her mouth. she always had a soft mouth and would back off the bit at the slightest excuse - in the scawbrig you can take more of a contact and ask her to work into it without her backing off and hollowing.

i've not noticed any problems with lateral control, but then given her mouth anyway, i never used much rein so am still riding her the same. riders who know her less well though, can ride more 'normally' as she is less sensitive to rein pressure. previously, you'd take up a normal rein contact and have her ears up your nose.



Hmm, interesting. I think I'm just going to have to wait for the opportunity to try one. Do you think it depends very much on the horse then for the kind of response you get? Have you ever known a horse which hated bitless?


I must say that I'm not personally aware of any kind of trend towards the use of hackamores

Too many interesting replies to this thread to answer all of them individually, and thank you all for your valuable input. The use of hackamores may not have reached trend status yet in this area, (not at the level of the flash nosebands and three ring gags at least) but their use is increasing. I don't have a problem with hackamores as such, but like any bit I do think there is a real need for the rider to understand the piece of tack and up until now I've always associated them with more experienced riders because of the pressure applied to the nose. I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this. :)

[Mehitabel]

i've ridden horses who dislike an english hackamore -if they don't apreciate poll pressure, or dislike a flash noseband, for example, then the nose pressure can be counterproductive. i rode one this week who is teething, she is not terribly keen on the poll pressure so we'll try her in a scawbrig. previously to the teething, she was perfectly happy in an eggbutt french link.

i've only ridden in a scawbrig on the one pony - hopefully i'll try on the teething one soon.

i completely agree with the premise of the thread - to use a piece of tack, any piece of tack, effectively, you need to know how it acts on the horse's body, why you're using it as opposed to another piece of kit, and what the warning signs are that the horse dislikes it. i tihnk the lack of this knowledge is creating a lot of problems for a lot of horses and owners.

[chev]

I knew one mare who did hate bitless. In the gentler types she ignored everything and did her own thing, but hated the nose pressure associated with hackamores - either backing up with her nose in the air or tucking her nose right in and setting her neck. We tried her in the bitless after she'd injured her mouth. She normally went happily in a pelham with an elastic curb and no noseband. No joy at all - she was rested until she could go back in her pelham.

I also had a mare who loathed them - although she was none too keen on the curb action of any bridle, bitted or not. She had big issues with bits but in the end settled in a French link snaffle with liberal coats of treacle. We reduced the treacle till she was happy without, and went from there. She was another who'd been put in a strong bit because she was strong - a pelham, in this case, which had left her mouth very sore and put her right off curbs. Goes to show bitless isn't always the best, or only, answer to bit problems, although it was the answer for my coloured.

They have their uses but thought and care are needed.