A Moral/Introspective Question for Equestrians

[powerticker]

I had a discussion with another friend of mine the other night on equestrian as a sport and horseback riding as a past time. My friend said equestrian in some way is an activity that goes against nature. He said the act of dressage was purely an activity of using the horse against his/her own will for the pleasure of human being. The same could be said about showjumping. In some way, he was wondering why we would want to stable up a horse and domesticating him/her while it was meant for him to be a creature as part of the environment. Needless to say, we had a great argument.

He said similarly, he would not want to be bridled up by some form of living creature of a higher pecking order or of higher intelligence one day simply to perform amazing tasks for the pleasure of others.

I would like to share my experience with other equestrians around the world. Have you ever been in a rather heated discussion of a similar nature with any of your friends? If so, what are your thoughts on this topic of equestrian as a sport of cruelty or as an activity against nature?

[kyanya]

So, basically, he is saying that we should not ride, because it is not 'natural'?

This leads me onto a topic I think of often, and htis is what is the point of riding? Why do we do it?

It was started as a form of getting from A to B quicker. Of course this is not the modern day purpose. I don't have a modern day reason. Personally, I ride because I like horses. I don't have a better reason. Maybe that's a little pathetic, but do I need to have a reason? Why do people play football? Why do people go swimming? Why do people do anything?

We have to do things with our lives, because otherwise we would do nothing.

Going more specifically onto the subject of dressage, why do people compete inthis? What is their aim? I do not compete, but I know if I did it would be to 'show-off' how the actions of a horse at liberty (so free of a rider) can also be performed with a rider, and when the rider wants.

I don't know why people want a horse to be able to counter-canter, leg yield etc, but do we need to have reasons for everything?

And as an afterthough, I think that if an discipline involving a horse makes the horse perform actions against it's own will, this is not a true form of equestrianism. Yes, a horse may not naturally go and perform a dresage test, but there is a difference between the animal being forced and the animal being asked. Just because it may not be natural, doesn't mean it has to be forced.

[chev]

You should ask mikka about this. She's done a lot of thinking and soul-searching on the subject.

My own feeling is that yes, without doubt riding is an "unatural" activity. But very little of life is natural, with or without horses.

Do horses enjoy being part of this? Hard to answer - certainly the vast majority enjoy the interaction, the companionship, the games and the ability to exercise brain and body. We owe it too them to ensure that what we ask causes no distress but I think they gain a great deal in return for what they give - far greater life expectancy, less suffering, and a lot of attention.

I also think most horses would be quite content not to be ridden. Just as most dogs would be more than happy never fetching sticks and most cats would be perfectly cheerful if they never had to learn to live in a house. But life is about entering a partnership with the creatures we share it with, and as long as it's equal, I don't see a problem.

As far as being harnessed and made to work for the gain of others - well most of us do that daily too. (And yes, I am becoming twisted and cynical in my old age).

[galadriel]

Putting shoes on goes against nature. So does brushing our teeth, corrective lenses, writing and reading, exercising for the sake of exercise, and refrigerating food so that it's available any time, rather than going out to hunt/gather.

I haven't worked with many feral horses, but I've worked with quite a few feral dogs; judging from that experience, I think that domesticated animals, forced to live in proximity with people, are probably happier when they have a relationship with people.

Unlike domesticated dogs, horses do actually have a way to live wild; this is partly because lots of people have fought to keep that habitat available. (Speaking of going against nature! *Ceasing* to overrun land and use it for our purposes goes against nature, too.) Those horses do seem like they live pleasant enough lives, although they are often lives of hardship. What I've seen of various documentaries on wild horses shows horses who are often thin, look wormy to me, and are very scarred. That's "natural." There are good things about a natural life--they can walk as far as they'd like, they can pick and choose what plants to eat, they can seek another place if their surroundings don't suit them, and they can find companionship that suits them.

When we domesticate a horse, I think we provide a lot in exchange for what we take away in terms of a wild life. Among other things, our care provides them with much more than a life expectancy of 6 years. I think we give them comfortable lives. I do think we should give domesticated horses lives that allow for their physical needs; some forms of equine management do not provide for much turnout time or for trickle feeding, for instance, which isn't terrific for their bodies. I think most horses are pretty happy domesticated, though, and I think horse owners as a whole tend to try to give their horses good lives.

Riding--sure, riding isn't "natural," but there isn't much in this life that is. There are probably horses who do not like riding or anything to do with it. Most horses who are handled and ridden well seem not to mind. Quite a few seem to enjoy it.

Mine is getting very frustrated with me; I've been "grounded" by a back problem snce December, and she's starting to object to being lunged for exercise--I'll often lunge before riding, and she keeps trying to cut the lunging session short and come up to me. I honestly think she is trying to get me to stop lunging and ride. She behaves similarly any time I have to stop riding for more than a week or so. I think that either she enjoys being ridden, or she enjoys pleasing her person enough to try to put herself in a position where she can receive the kind of praise and affection that she gets from riding. She likes what riding does for her, one way or another.

I don't think it's unfair to the horse to domesticate him, keep him as a pet, and ride him.

[Volvic]

I've never been in a heated discussion with one of my friends about this, but I do have an opinion on this subject!:D

If the horse had never been domesticated, it probably wouldnt exist today. It is only because of the partnership between horses and people that we have been able to advance technologically & that they have been able to survive.

Most horses enjoy their work, especially jumping & trying to force an animal that can weigh up to a tonne to do something it doesnt want to is plain stupidity, so if they didnt enjoy their work, we'd probably all be dead trying to make them!!!

I have a pony on loan who I have every faith that if she didnt want me to ride her, she'd get me off! Likewise if she didnt want to be saddled or bridled, she wouldnt let me; but she does, which just shows me that she does enjoy her work really. She hates dressage with a vengence & cant do too much jumping, but she's happy just charging around on hacks. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that as long as you listen to your horse and dont force it to do something it physically or mentally cant, then there's nothing wrong with riding them.

[Bloss]

i have got a video that is all about horses and how they use their senses and things to communicate with each other, in a herd and with humans it also points out what Volvic said that without humans it is possible that horses would now be extinct:(

[Slewgal]

Just think of were humans would be today without having the horse in our past.:)

[Echo64]

I'm not sure if anyone's really spent a lot of time watching free and/or wild horses, but if you have, you will see that they do preform some of the actions that are deemed "unnatural" such as the lengthening/extension and shortening/collection in the stride. While this is very basic, it does not end here.

In the early airs-above-the-ground training, these horses were trained based upon what early trainers had seen other horses doing whilst out in fields together. While courbettes and caprioles seem rather extraordinary, they're "bumped up" versions of what horses have actually done.

I think riding, for all intents and purposes, is exercise. So, if that's truly unnatural, and people say that they wouldn't want some higher-being making you preform for them, then why do people go to the gym? Why do people make themselves suffer great lengths for some exercise?

When people say that they don't want to be "ridden" or anything, it always makes me laugh because human beings aren't good for very much anymore. We have highly developed brains, which have evolved us into rather lazy (if you think about it, we don't walk places: we drive. We don't cook meals anymore, we order in) individuals. That's just my opinion.

[laura jeanne]

Bloss, would love to know the name of your video.

I have thought about this and the fact that horses are at the mercy of humans, the same way children are at the mercy of adults. If a child lives in a dysfunctional or abusive environment, they are helpless to get out of it. The same for a horse, if it is in a cruel or poor environment, it is also helpless. They depend on humans for everything- food, water, healthcare, companionship, love and kindness.

It is kind of scary, really. I like to think that most horses (and children) are in a kind and nurturing environment, but . . .

I have also thought that like children, horses raised domestically don't even know about being free or doing whatever they want in the wild. Most children don't have any experience except their own family life and think that is normal, even if it's not. Horses know only what they have experienced and so if raised in a caring situation, I like to think they are happy to interact with humans and even be ridden.

As far as dressage goes, that reminds me of General Patton who said, even as he rescued the Lipizzaners, that he didn't see the point of horses "wiggling their butts"!!

[tubby]

First thing is----- has he ever tried to "make" a horse do something it doesn't want to,I bet he hasn't. Second thing is does he drive a car, that's really unatural & of course he shouldn't wear clothes & should hunt for his food :D:D Tell him to find out more about it, it is after all horses just playing our games with us( this is what they must think they are)

[james]

Unless the person advancing this point of view is a strict vegan (eats no animal products, wears no leather, etc.) and owns no pets, they are a hypocrite.

If society lived by the maxim of only doing what is "natural", we would still live in caves, or be swinging from the trees.

[KarinUS]

I have owned my horse for nearly two years and up until recently I felt that him letting me ride was kind of a 'favor' and in return I boarded him at a facility that lets him be a horse all the rest of the time. He has turnout 24/7 on 26 acres with a pond but also got his own stall in case the weather is terrible and for feeding.
I made sure that during the week at least one of my visits would be strictly for grooming, grazing, no riding, etc.

Regardless of my efforts to make him life a life as natural as possible he developed a habit called cribbing.

In recent weeks I have decided to ride more frequently. Honestly that decision was strictly based on my wish to become a better rider. More saddle time was needed.

What resulted however was a turn for the better in my horse!
He comes to the gate. He willingly reaches for the bit. But best of all: his cribbing has reduced noticably.
All around he seems more at peace with himself. Happy, content, energetic.

He is not a mustang. He is a Throughbred. Performing and working has been bred into his genes. Having no job to do just leaves him bored and anxious.
In my mind this might be similar to Border Collies- smart active dogs, that can be a lot of trouble, if they have nothing to do- or wonderful working dogs if allowed to do what they are bred for.

[ros]

If you look back through history you'll find that some animals have chosen to survive by remaining wild, while others have seen certain benefits in teaming up with us humans - horses (like dogs and cats) being a case in point. In return for the protection we afford them they lend themselves very easily to domestication, and they allow us to use and abuse them in all sorts of ways.

I daresay there are plenty of badly treated or misunderstood horses and ponies around who would rather not be ridden. But on the whole, if a horse is happy, healthy and trusts his owner, I believe that, natural or not, he can genuinely enjoy performing the tasks he's asked to perform.

I'm 100% satisfied that my own horses have been happy to cart me about the countryside, jump a few logs, play at lungeing now and again, and maybe try out a few dressage movements here and there. They enjoy the interest of learning something new and they love the praise when they get it right. All in all, provided being ridden doesn't hurt or frighten them (and there's no good reason why it should if we're careful) I'm quite sure they regard it simply as a part of the attention they need and deserve; in fact, I've known plenty of horses who have postively sulked if their human partner has decided to ride another horse!

[Wally]

Your friend should meet Heather Moffett's Hispano Arab, If ever there was a horse who loves people and his work he's one.

he has a "look at me" air about him and you cannot help but be spell bound by him. As Heather was riding him round the school she said, " he keeps offering Spanish walk, I'll have to let him do it or we'll not hear then end of it" or words to that effect, She then said to the horse "go on then" at which he proceeded round the school in the most extravegant Spanish walk you have ever seen.

On every circuit he was desperate to come and chat to us and kept an eye on HIS audience the whole time....just to make sure we were looking at HIM.

Now after watching that horse if anyone can, with hand on heart, tell me he was not enjoying himself I'll listen to their reasons.

Some breeds of horse are bred to work in this way and find it comes so naturally to them.

If they didn't want to work why do all our lot try to get into the indoor school, it means only one thing to them, work and getting tacked up, If they didn't want to play silly devils with us humnans why don't they all bog off to the other end of thier hill park so we cannot find them?

Why does Andy Pants actually put his head into his collar when you produce it? it means one thing, going in his cart.

I almost feel sorry for folk who have never had such a deep and loving bond with an animal like a horse, they will never understand the truly deep and almost telepathic empathy which flows both ways when you have the right "partnership"

Even our old House cow has a bond with us, she understands us and we understand her, she makes her wishes quite plain and knows how top manipulate us to HER hadvantage.

So turn the question round and ask him, how would he feel in a force 12 gale just to make a horses life a comfy as possible away from the elements, feeding, mucking out and generally looking to ther well being, the door swings both ways.

[intouch]

Powerticker - does this friend of yours WORK? Unless he is working for himself in a job he absolutely loves, he is probably just as bridled and performing tasks when he would rather be slobbing out, as most horses!
Your average horse works for about an hour a day - say 6 hours a week - for his probably quite luxurious keep - nice work if you can get it!
Where would most horses be, if people didn't love riding? Not too many would be kept in the manner they would like to be.
Get real!

[kyanya]

Wally - Heather's Arab is lucky that he has a rider as good as Heather. She is one of the few rider's than can really not restrain the horse's movement , making it so much more free, and it must be so much more enjoyable for the horse to not have the restraint of a normal rider.

If all horse's had rider's such as Heather, I wonder if there would be so many more happy, eager to work and please horses.

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by Wally
As Heather was riding him round the school she said, " he keeps offering Spanish walk, I'll have to let him do it or we'll not hear then end of it" or words to that effect,

I know what that's like - I enjoy trick training but the downside is that whenever he learns a new trick he's a devil for showing it off to all and sundry (particulary anyone who looks like they might have a treat in their pocket that they weren't planning on giving to him) - it's a real dilemma because you know you shouldn't praise him unless he's been cued but it is such a deliberate attempt to interact that its hard to ignore - you can see his minding whipping through his repetoire for the right level of cuteness.... :o

Horse riding isn't 'natural' but what is? If we only do 'natural' things - everyone should fling off their clothes, burn their belongings and return to whence we came to live in small hunter gatherer societies - unfortunately there's 6billion of us

[shaka]

I often think that, but the fact is, horses are extremely strong, if they didnt want to do something we asked them to do there was no way we could make them. If horses didnt like being trained, they wouldnt let us do it, same with dressage and showjumping, if they didnt want to do it, they wouldnt. Horses are sociable animals, they choose to co-operate, and some horses like their work. Charlie for example, some of you may have seen my thread on this in the Cafe Area, jumped a double of completely his own free will. It was across a diagonal, so he could have kept going round the school, but he acctually chose to turn, no one eslse was in the school, so no one was making him, and there was plenty of room between fences to run out, and he didnt. He obviously likes his job and does it for fun or he wouldnt do it. Some horses like to jump and others dont, some are good in their flat and some arent.
A lot of people do try and make their horses lives as natural as possible, having them out all year, not clipped or bitted or shod. SOme horses however, are bred to be stable kept. The fine Thoroughbred wouldn't do as well out all year as say, a Conemmara, or a Shetland, as the TB is bred to be indoors. There is a lot of Natural Horsemanship like Parelli around at the moment, whoich I certainly do and Im sure many others to give our horses more natural lifestyles. And while yes, jumping my pony round a course of brightly coloured fences at 1m05 high is not natural, but if my pony didn't want to do it, he would tell us, he would stop, or throw us off, or not go in the ring. SHaka used to stop a lot, he told us he didn't like his job, so I sto0pped him gave him a break and reschooled him. He didnt want to jump, and I didn't force him. A lot of horses get the choice, yes it isn't natural, but remember, its all that domestic bred horses know.
Yes it could be described as a 'sport against nature' but certainly not cruelty, horses can kill us with one swift kick, they choose not to, so we must be doing something right.

[T-bred]

I agree with Galadriel. I mean if you look at it like that we would be running around naked!!! I mean what does he think about domestic cats or dogs? I mean I know we ride horses but it doesn't hurt them and some horses really enjoy working. And what does he think about the indians riding and training horses. Where did he get that dressage and show jumping were cruel I mean dressage is very good for them and show jumping is not bad you just have to take care of them.

Anna

[kedwards]

Although I think that it's possible to use a horse "against it's will," I don't think that it results in a happy and successful animal and a good partnership.

Certainly, horses that are ridden in competition are "working horses," just as many of us are "working people." The question is, do we feel that we're forced to work against our wills like slaves, or do we enjoy our work and find it challenging and rewarding. Personally, I can say the latter about my own work and I hope that my horse feels the same way about his. I think that any sensitive rider wants a horse that brings something to the table.

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by shaka
The fine Thoroughbred wouldn't do as well out all year as say, a Conemmara, or a Shetland, as the TB is bred to be indoors.

Shaka, I do hate it when people say that. All our TB's are outside in a cyclone at the moment. I never hear anyone saying - you know a connemara really should be indoors with the air-conditioner on , when they live in warmer countries. And hello the TB was developed in the UK! and therefore has British native stock in it, including the Scottish galloway that was the fast racehorse of the time prior to the TB.

[NZhorserider]

Well said Viv. Our tbs aren't pansies;)

Our world class tb eventers grew up as hairy little beasts in the hill country. There's no one to stable them, rug them, hard feed them or groom them up there! Survival of the fittest. People from all over the world buy our tbs. At the moment we are having trouble keeping our good horses in the country, our top riders are being offered heaps of money for them and they can't afford to say no.

[powerticker]

Well, while driving is unatural, my friends feel that it is definitely NOT against the will of a bunch of metals to drive it around. In some way, yes, unless he absolutely uses NO animal products, he might be a hypocrite. However, he feels that using the skins of dead cows for the purpose of protection is acceptable while making living horses to do certain tasks for us is absolutely unacceptable.

He said if you were to let a horse free, chances would be that he would want to run away. Well, I tend to disagree because many domesticated horses tend to run nowhere except returning to their stables. I guess he had the same feelings about dogs, cats or any pet per se because he felt that locking up a puppy for anyone's entertainment was plain cruel and stupid. He had this idea that few pets, if let alone, would want to SERVE or want to be controlled in a certain way. While I was watching a few dressage videos and showjumping videos with him, he was a bit turned off because he felt that humans dressing up with navy blazers and stocks and shirts and riding on a horse was simply an act to show others that he/she was a superior master AT COMMANDING A HORSE to do whatever he/she wanted him to. IN that sense, he felt that it was absolutely unatural. I guess he definitely has no problem going to swim or jog because it doesn't involve interfering the life of another creature or taking away the freedom of anyone else. However, equestrians to him was an act that made man proud simply because he could command someone lower on the food chain or of lower intellect to do something that was absolutely of no meaningful purpose. Well, I guess people like my friend do exist but I guess he probably will never be an equestrian and has never experienced what it would be like to be with a horse.

At times, horses wanted for our attention, our pet on his neck and shoulder and for our feeding him. In an actual fact, (although I wasn't successful in convincing him), doing dressage or showjumping is an act of total partnership, companionship for both the horse and human and without the right connection/partnership, it would never happen. I had been telling him that putting the bridle on wasn't an act of force, rather, it was a tool of communication between my partnership with the horse. Any aid per se, was only a bridge for humans to communicate with their partners (horses) to do better in whatever games they were to do.

[powerticker]

Well, while driving is unatural, my friends feel that it is definitely NOT against the will of a bunch of metals to drive it around. In some way, yes, unless he absolutely uses NO animal products, he might be a hypocrite. However, he feels that using the skins of dead cows for the purpose of protection is acceptable while making living horses to do certain tasks for us is absolutely unacceptable.

He said if you were to let a horse free, chances would be that he would want to run away. Well, I tend to disagree because many domesticated horses tend to run nowhere except returning to their stables. I guess he had the same feelings about dogs, cats or any pet per se because he felt that locking up a puppy for anyone's entertainment was plain cruel and stupid. He had this idea that few pets, if let alone, would want to SERVE or want to be controlled in a certain way. While I was watching a few dressage videos and showjumping videos with him, he was a bit turned off because he felt that humans dressing up with navy blazers and stocks and shirts and riding on a horse was simply an act to show others that he/she was a superior master AT COMMANDING A HORSE to do whatever he/she wanted him to. IN that sense, he felt that it was absolutely unatural. I guess he definitely has no problem going to swim or jog because it doesn't involve interfering the life of another creature or taking away the freedom of anyone else. However, equestrians to him was an act that made man proud simply because he could command someone lower on the food chain or of lower intellect to do something that was absolutely of no meaningful purpose. Well, I guess people like my friend do exist but I guess he probably will never be an equestrian and has never experienced what it would be like to be with a horse.

At times, horses wanted for our attention, our pet on his neck and shoulder and for our feeding him. In an actual fact, (although I wasn't successful in convincing him), doing dressage or showjumping is an act of total partnership, companionship for both the horse and human and without the right connection/partnership, it would never happen. I had been telling him that putting the bridle on wasn't an act of force, rather, it was a tool of communication between my partnership with the horse. Any aid per se, was only a bridge for humans to communicate with their partners (horses) to do better in whatever games they were to do.

[galadriel]

powerticker said:
he felt that humans dressing up with navy blazers and stocks and shirts and riding on a horse was simply an act to show others that he/she was a superior master AT COMMANDING A HORSE to do whatever he/she wanted him to.

That's ridiculous--as in worthy of ridicule! As of this comment, I don't think there's any point in discussing it further with him. Once someone gets completely illogical in support of his argument (or uses personal attacks, not that I'm saying he did), I think it's time to stop talking to him. I'm not going to change his mind, and I'm either going to get upset or laugh at what he says. Neither would be productive ;)

[shaka]

Viv and NZHorserider,
I was generalising, and I didn't say TB's couldn't live out. On the contrary, I can think of about 8 out of 9 purebred TB's who live out all year round with no problem. What I meant was, The finer built TB horse would not live out and cope as well as the conemara or shetland, or other natives, not that they couldn't all together. What I meant was the TB was bred more for racing, and most racehorses are boxed.
As for being pansies, I would never think they were, I would never think of any horse as pansies. I'm sorry if I offended, and that what I said was taken the wrong way.

[emma314]

I don't think that being around and riding horses is unnatural at all. Humans have been around horses for thousands of years. Both species have grown together and both would be completely different today if the other had not been around. Every species on this planet is constantly evolving to adapt to the place it lives in. Horses are amazingly adaptable to situations, they gain lots of benefits by working with humans. The thing that fascinates me about horses is their ability as a prey species to allow a predator to sit on their back in the one place they cannot see! I hate the idea that a person "owns" a horse. The horse is no less intelligent that a human and is only "owned" by itself. Perhaps I'm being naieve, but I really believe that a human and a horse can develop a strong attachment with each other, we are both social, emotional creatures after all.

However, the thing that is completely unnatural is the way some people behave with their horses. Horses are still definitely seen as the property of their owner, with which the owner can do as they like (within reason!). I don't think it's fair to make a horse perform in a certain discipline purely because it's the owners preferred sport. And I do think that it's possible to make a horse do something because it's in the horses character (not all horses, every one is individual) to adapt to certain situations.

I doubt any of that made any sense because it's 12.15 and I should really be in bed :D

[Shiny McShine]

Originally posted by powerticker
My friend said equestrian in some way is an activity that goes against nature.

In one regard I would agree, in another no. The Oxford Dictionary definition of 'natural' that I have here says, "of, existing in, or produced by nature". Equestrian activity was not produced by nature in the way most people think of it, i.e. 'Mother Nature'. However, humans are part of nature, so whatever we do must also be an act of nature. I don't believe horse riding goes against nature, in the same way that I don't believe logging forests goes against nature... because human nature is a product of nature too. The difference with nature and 'human nature' is that nature 'just happens' whereas humans have a choice in what actions they are going to involve themselves in. I believe nature and human activity are just as cruel, and as kind as each other.

He said the act of dressage was purely an activity of using the horse against his/her own will for the pleasure of human being. The same could be said about showjumping.

I would not go as far as to say that the horse is used against his own will. At times this may be true, but most good horsemen would recognise this and adjust their riding accordingly. I must however state, that it is my opinion that being ridden, for a horse, is more work than play. Like others have said here... the horse gets a pay off for it's service. It gets more luxury than it would in most wild environments (providing the owner is knowledgeable and caring), in return for it's service, but it is performing a task of burden for us (at least it's a burden when I hop on ;)), is worked for a period outside it's own choosing, performing tasks outside it's own choosing. Sounds like a working arrangement if you ask me. I don't think this makes riding wrong, if, like at any workplace, the working conditions are good and fair.

He said similarly, he would not want to be bridled up by some form of living creature of a higher pecking order or of higher intelligence one day simply to perform amazing tasks for the pleasure of others.

If you think about this statement, isn't this basically what we humans do everyday when we go to work... again being ridden is like work, doesn't mean it is all bad though. I know I have some shocking days at work, but I also have some brilliant ones, and at the end of the week I get paid. If it is the same for the horse then it can't be all that bad. Still, if I had a choice I would probably be sitting on that tropical island right now, and the horse would probably be in some gigantic, lush paddock.

I have had similar arguments, in my own mind as to whether it is right to ride horses or not, and I guess that is the conclussion I have come to. I think it has it's positives and negatives for the horse, I guess the better educated the owner/rider, the better it is for the horse. So it is up to us to provide the best we can for our horses.

[NZhorserider]

If what your friend says is true then howcome when we go down to catch the horses, we dont even need halters because they just bolt up to the corral, wanting to be ridden. :rolleyes:

[powerticker]

I posed that to him but he also mentioned that there were horses which would fly back to its stable right away when their owners approach them... due to abuse and brute force. There mouth desensitized due to hard reining and their girth bruised by visious spurs.

I guess in some ways, there are people that tend to taint the sport a bit. Some horses when ridden refuse to jump fences and yes, I can't deny the fact that at some point, I have seen some physical abuse by so called EXPERT showjumpers who whips and kicks till the horse begs for mercy. They simply give him no choice but to jump at probably against his will. He must do so... otherwise, he knows that he will have nothing to fight back except to incur a few spur spikes and flank whipping.

[chev]

I wouldn't define that as true horsemanship though. Riding and equestrianism is the development of a partnership between horse and rider, not a demonstration of mastery. No-one would agrue that that is needless and cruel behaviour - but nor is it what the vast majority of horse owners and riders subscribe to.

Nature depends on biodiversity - the co-operative co-existence of all species. Our domestication of animals, be they horse, dog, cat or whatever, is merely a form of this. Working animals are "paid" for their work, pet animals likewise. This is biodiversity in action... albeit a highly developed version.

And what greater show of mastery could there be than to kill an animal and use its meat and skin for our own requirements?

[Esther.D]

He said if you were to let a horse free, chances would be that he would want to run away.

Our horses live as close as we can achieve to natural lives. They live in 60-100 acres of moorland (they are all native breeds designed for this terrain). They travel around the field all day seeking the bast grazing and water (they have no trough, all the water is natural springs which never dry up). We give them a bale of hay (between 6) a day if there is snow on the ground, the ground is frozen or the weather is extreme in any other way. Otherwise they are not fed. They do not wear shoes. The bigger two are rugged as the weather is extreme up there and they are less fitted for it (being lowland breeds) than the shetlands.

They come to us (with no feed) when we call, winter or summer and I have a gaggle of ponies all fighting to get their heads into the halter. I can only assume that this is because they enjoy the interaction and work, otherwise there would be no way on earth we could get near them on 100 acres. I have had some of the shetlands since they were foals, and I personally know the breeders of the others. They have never been abused in their lives. The bigger horses have a less know history. Pablo has been abused and how did he react until he trusted us? He ran away! However now he can be caught and worked and will lean over the gate with us after he has been released.

We cannot tell exactly what a horse is thinking, and some unfortunately are abused and work out of fear. However the majority of the horseworld works because it enjoys companionship and challenge. They are herd animals after all, it is natural to work in a team and it is natural to do what the dominant animal requires. Those that are forced into this relationship always give it away in the end - they become aggressive, or very nervous, or withdrawn etc

[fair~filly]

I can only speak for what goes on here in the U.K as I have no 1st hand experience of wild/native horses in other countries.
We import & breed horses in the U.K which are not hardy in our climate, so rug them,clip them etc & generally pander to their every need. They are warm in the winter, well fed & stabled so that's fine.
On the other hand we have natives changing hands at £5.00 a time straight from the hills......or from a breeder at at leat 100 times that amount.....surely this can't be right :( .
I think it's so sad that our true natives are ignored/overlooked by so many. We read so many posts from people contemplating buying their first horse.....for a first time owner you can't beat a native.
I really think we should allow our horses to live as near to nature as possible....as part of a herd, outside if possible.
Is it really fair to turn out a clipped fine type in rugs for a couple of hours, just so he/she is clean & you can ride for 2 hours at the weekend..?? Unless you are a serious competitor I can't see the logic or fairness in that.
It's a bit like sitting in your best clothes & keeping spotless all day everday just incase you get to go out one evening..!!

It has to be a partnership happy horse=healthy one=willing one=happy owner :) .
Just my opinion on things.

F~F xxx

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[NZhorserider]

Your friend is just wrong and that's that:D

People were not intended to wear clothes. Cotton wasn't meant to be made into clothes. Does that mean him wearing cotton clothes is murdering cotton plants that are lower in the food chain and dominating them? :rolleyes:

[shaka]

Excellent point NZ!