Need help with backing!

[Lucy J]

Hi

Some of you know I am currently breaking in a new forest 6 year old gelding who is quite nervous of people. well we are now lunging better than my horse doing walk and trot on command, we can pick up his front feet, tack him up like a normal pony and brush him all over, catch him in the field, leave him out without a headcollar and generally he is getting much better. he has been sat on a few times now, but we have hit a stumbling block. he is fine with someone sitting on him, and now he will walk with someone sitting on him, but he has this really bad problem of panicking and bolting. if there is 2 people leading him then he doesn't get away, but he is so strong that one person has difficulty holding him. i have already had one really heavy fall resulting in black eye and v badly bruised leg, i don't want another, has anyone else had this problem, is it just something else that will take time? I am dreading the day i need to ride him with no lunge line!

[Mehitabel]

is he improving at all?

the simple answer is - don't ride without 2 people for the time being. you falling off is as scary for him as it is for you, so stay with the things he's happy with and push it really slowly. there's no rush, and every time you riding is an unpleasant experience for him he will be set back in his progress. if it takes 6 months of plodding round the school with 2 people hanging on, then so be it.

one thing i do with ponies i haven't had since babies is to get on in the middle of the school about 5 strides away fro mthe fnece - so you only have a couple of steps to go before he's stood against the fence. it's a mental and physical barrier - he sees it as a shorter distance, and physically he can't go anywhere.

whatever you do, don't push him on until he is 150% happy with the stage you're at.

[Harry Hobbes]

Lucy J,

All horses have certain instincts derived from their genes; one of which is the "claustrophobic instinct". This instinct manifests itself by the horse reacting fearfully and/or flightfully to attempts by humans, other animals or circumstances to constrain the horse. That is, the horse feels constrained (i.e., trapped), so the horse reacts with either its "opposition reflex", fear and/or flight. Nature has programmed the horse to do this.

Furthermore, another genetically-based instinct allows the horse to quickly overcome its fears after a short period of time, if it is allowed the freedom to move away (mentally, if not physically) from the perceived danger. (Horse's clear their mind - mentally overcome/accept - by moving their feet. This is the basis for the famous 1/4 mile run.) By constraining a horse, we limit or postpone the beneficial affect of this instinct. In other words, constraint exacerbates fear, and delays the ability of the horse to overcome its fear, and manage its fear.

In addition, horses do not have the capability to abstract, and therefore, everytime the situation changes (e.g., different gaits), the horse must learn to manage its instincts in each new situation, such as a trot or canter. This is at the essence of training any horse. ("Well-broke" horses have learned that they have the ability to manage their fear, so they accept new situations readily; green horses do not know this yet.)

Your horse is reacting to the claustrophibic instinct; and further attempts at constraint ("...if there is 2 people leading him...") will serve to exacerbate (or reinforce) its fear/flight, to inhibit its ability to overcome its fear/flight, to postpone its learning to manage its instincts, and postpone its acceptance of the rider at all gaits.

If you wish your horse to learn to accept the constraint of a human on its back, without undue stress on the horse, then you need to allow it to find out for itself that there is nothing to fear from the human on its back. We do this by allowing the horse to move out with the human sitting on its back, and no contact on its mouth, or other direct restraint .

If we allow the horse to move out without constraint on its movements, it will very quickly learn that there is nothing to fear with a rider sitting up there while it is moving. This takes about ten minutes (if that), if we do not interfere with its movements. (Of course, if it bucks, we would definately cause it to cease bucking, and then move out.)

But, this means that we humans accept that the horse may panick (a mental activity), and may bolt and run, if it feels that it must. We merely stay balanced in the saddle and allow the horse to move and overcome its fear. If we do nothing to constrain the horse, such as try to stop (further contrain) the horse by pulling on its mouth, then it will run for some distance, until it realizes it is not in danger, then transition/slow down; and perhaps stop. Then we ask it to move out again, allow it to move out,( and repeat often.)

A fifty-foot (diameter) round pen is the ideal tool to teach this lesson to a horse, as the small area puts a natural limit on the speed of the horse. (And about the second time around, the horse starts to realize that running doesn't answer.) However, any safe arena will suffice.

The rider must be capable of staying in the saddle, without balancing on the horse's mouth. If this is not your skill level, then I suggest that you ask a more proficient rider to help this horse learn this lesson. After the horse accepts the rider at all gaits, without bolting/running off, and has learned to respond to cues to stop, turn, etc., then it is relatively safe for riders who cannot stay in the saddle at a gallop/bolt/jump.

I hope this helps you better understand the horse's behaviors.

Best regards,
Harry

[shakari]

wow harry! that was really interesting and somthing I think I will try with one of my 'ready to back-ers' at the weekend. Can I ask in conjunction with your theory-how the horse should be stopped from bucking because in my genral backing experience a lot of horses broncho went sent away???

[Mehitabel]

i agree with harry in principle that - " you need to allow it to find out for itself that there is nothing to fear from the human on its back", but i am not sure it'd work in practice. i've seen ponies shoot off, and while some do stop, some scare themselves more and keep going, or trip over in their panic, go through a fence etc. it's not what i'd do with a scared baby.
i'd rather they learn not to always follow their instincts, to think first and react next. you don't want a pony who reacts instantly by shooting off when anything new happens throughout it's life. when i've been in this situation, i've hung on, had 2 people leading and just bored the pony into acceptance through repetition and spending time just walking round with me on board. safer, IMO.

[wildponies]

Lucy J - i'm backing one of mine at the moment as well and Harry Hobbes makes some really useful pointers. The first time i got on my mare.. i wasn't really thinking but she'd worked so well in the menage i decided to just hop on her back... shouldn't have done this as i was totally alone and wearing no protective gear.. but hey.. i bounce... anyway.. what followed was a series of 3 bucks... and then nothing... she turned her head and looked at my legs hanging down either side of her.. (she was untacked) and then started to wander off towards the fence where she could sticlk her nose through to eat. and that was it. But i think that the fact she had no bridle to pull on her mouth and nothing to stop her from moving from the front and no one trying to hold on to her made her that little bit more willing to accept me. We're still having problems on the lunge though, whenever she sees another horse in the distance, she'll stop.. no matter how much whip cracking goes on.. ah well.. we'll get there in the end! Good luck Lucy!

[Harry Hobbes]

Shakari asked:
Can I ask in conjunction with your theory-how the horse should be stopped from bucking because in my genral backing experience a lot of horses broncho went sent away???
While riding, the famous "one-rein stop", also known as "neutral lateral flexion" is used to stop any dangerous movement. A variation of this movement is used to "transition down" from a faster gait/speed.

However, if your horses are bucking, then you have, in affect, moved them too fast in the training program; they have not yet completely accepted working under saddle without a rider. They have "reservations."

This is why I do many hours of ground work with a saddle on the green horse (or re-starts) prior to ever putting a foot in the stirrup. The horse gets all of the bucking/rearing/evading out of its system within the ground work context; quickly; and then we move on. By the time I do put a foot in the stirrup, the horse considers the saddle to be part of his coat, and the constraint of the saddle (and all of the "sacking out" accoutrements) are no longer an issue. I also spend much time preparing the horse to accept the weight of the rider; and the rider on its back, prior to any moving forward while mounted. (I have not been bucked in five years, since I slowed down and focused on ground work preparation; and I've started and re-started some pretty troubled horses - ground work works.)

However, if a horse has accepted the saddle, and bucks because of the rider, then the thing to do is to make it move forward; fast. Again, as I said above, "If we allow the horse to move out without constraint on its movements, it will very quickly learn that there is nothing to fear with a rider sitting up there ..." Personally, any balking, bucking, rearing, or other reactionary behavior would cause me to "spank" the horse forward, releasing all constraint on its mouth (and forward movement), by smacking it on its croup/rump with my open hand, until it moved forward. Forward-moving horses cannot buck/rear/balk. (Parelli demonstrates this spanking technique in his original training tapes from 1993; or use a crop, if that's your tool of choice.)

So. if your horses are bucking, take them back to ground training until they accept the demands put upon them. While mounted, release all forward constraint and cause the horse to move forward; fast. Then, after it has lost the thought of bucking, let it transistion/slow down.

Best regards,
Harry

P.S. Notice that I spank the horse forward, rather than kicking it forward. I do this because I do not want to further stimulate the horse on its flanks/belly; so I do not use my legs. I spank it on its "go forward spot."

[Tootsie4U]

I once read somewhere that any horse who bucks (minus one who bucks out of pain) is not considered "broke" because it has not yet MENTALLY yielded to the concept of a person on its back.

We should be striving to get our horses to yield mentally to the idea of ridden work and any component of mounted riding.

I thought that was interesting and I agree wholeheartedly.


<edit> just realized thats what Harry said... only in a more detailed version :p

[Lucy J]

ok, can i add that i have done 5 months of ground work with Maxwell, he doesn't buck, he doesn't rear, actually he never puts a foot wrong other than this. i do understand the pshycological reasons behing his bolting, not helped by the fact he was forest bred and practically unhandled till he was 6 (except for when he nearly died after behing gelded badly which is why he is wary of people, especially men).

i do not constrain his mouth when i sit on him. he is perfectly happy to have someone sit on him. but it is either stand still or gallop off at top speed. i am capable of staying on, but when you are galloping round an arena at top speed directly at each fence and missing getting your legs smashed off the railings by about 2 inches then common sense kicks in and you need to know its time to get off. especially when the pony is in a total blind panic.

i know why he does it, but that is not helping me solve it. i need to get him to realise he doesn't have to run. staying on his back charging round the school for quite a period of time with him under no restraint did not do the trick.

incidently when he does stop (he used to break away on the lunge) he does always come back to you.

i don't have a round pen. only a 20x40 school. and charging round it out of control all day is not an option!

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Lucy J
especially when the pony is in a total blind panic.


Thats the issue at hand. Obviously five months of groundwork wasnt enough, or wasn't effective, for this young man. Horses' dont keep calendars :D

G'luck.

[Mehitabel]

i'm not entirely sure that's the case. sometimes groundwork can be perfect and the horse can still be scared of someone sitting on him. i do think it's a trust issue, but sometimes a young horse, who hasn't had much human contact (and i know what those NF sales are like - so i don't blame him) will be less happy to accept a rider.

given he was wild, his instincts for danger are more honed than a stud bred horse. it's a big thing for a previously wild pony to let you sit on him, and i am not convinced that endless groundwork will do the trick 100% of the time.

i'm also not convinced that the best way to deal with bucking is to 'spank' him on the backside. in his head, you're a predator trying to eat him - he tries to get you off and you whack him - confirming that you're something to be scared of. if he can't run off, and has to walk round and 'lump it' he will learn that putting up with it didn't kill him.

also, lucy doesn't own this pony, he's being broken in to sell on (IIRC) so time is not unlimited. personally. i'd rather be on him and working it out and letting him work out that it isn't that bad to have someone on his back. i wouldn't say letting him get hysterical and race round a school is particularly conducive to him learning being ridden is not stressful.

[Tootsie4U]

Ok, I gotcha... You have many more years practice at this than me but for discussion sake...

What is it when a horse allows you to sit on his back, especially for the first time?

Either you have a dead horse who is immune to that sort of stimuli or you have a horse who trusts in some sort of fashion.

We've read the posts, this horse isnt dead. He's very much alive and well :D

So, the only other explanation for me is that he hasn't learnt to trust his handlers. Or, he hasn't learnt to trust them *enough* that he's comfortable with them atop him.

Claustrophobia is another potential component. Harry's Severance technique (what he described above) serves to deal with that.

They have to learn to trust us. If they dont trust, they wont respect. Without those two, your taking a gamble every time you mount up.

IMO, your horse will tell you if the groundwork is perfect and if you've done enough of it.

It can be argued that the horse will learn to take the mickey (as you all call it over there) and you will never end up on that horses' back. But, if you've honestly and truthfully gained your horses' trust and respect, will he "take the mickey"???

[Mehitabel]

But, if you've honestly and truthfully gained your horses' trust and respect, will he "take the mickey"???


yes. they have a sense of humour and personalities just like we do, and sometimes what they fancy doing is not what we happen to be asking and a discussion is necessary before they will do it!

So, the only other explanation for me is that he hasn't learnt to trust his handlers. Or, he hasn't learnt to trust them *enough* that he's comfortable with them atop him.

i quite agree. the only thing we're disagreeing on is the method used to get him used to being sat on. sometimes, for whatever reason, you have to just bite the bullet and get on, even if the horse isn't 100% happy. it's not how i like to do things, but sometimes it has to be done - especially if it's someone else's horse, who hasn't had the handling that would be ideal.

[casey]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
I once read somewhere that any horse who bucks (minus one who bucks out of pain) is not considered "broke" because it has not yet MENTALLY yielded to the concept of a person on its back.

Woo hoo i'd better send my boisterous 10 year old to be rebacked then:p

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Es
.... and a discussion is necessary before they will do it!


We agree, we always do. That discussion takes the form of groundwork or "back to basics" under saddle (but how can you get anymore basic in this specific case?? You cant, you cant even get on his back, therefore, more groundwork to build his trust)

[Mehitabel]

the discussion that i'd have would be to get on, have 2 people leading and just sit it out until he relaxes. walk round the ring, change rein, transition, just make him walk round regardless, give him something else to take his mind off it and wait for him to realise it isn't that bad. it's a problem i've had to deal with several times and this approach does work.
my gut feeling is that letting him tear round, possibly injuring himself, falling over as he is going to be very unbalanced, etc, is going to be counterproductive.

[Tootsie4U]

Just for my own curiosity; If done this way, do your horses ever buck/bolt after that - five saddling later, ten, twelve, twenty?

[Mehitabel]

the worst one took about a month. every day, 2 people hanging on, her tense and stroppy and trying to explode about every 2 minutes to begin with. her 'explosions' involved her holding her breath, dropping her bum, scooting out sideways from underneath the rider and then rodeoing.

she was a special case though - her owner had spoiled her rotten, she had no respect for people whatsoever, and by the time i got to her 3 other people had tried and given up - 2 of them professionals. she'd been being 'broken in' for 2 years - she was nearly 6 when i got involved. she was a brat, had never had any discipline and didn't see why on earth she should do as she was told, ever! the first person was far too nice to her, and the pony walked all over her just because she could. the second was too harsh, told her off when she messed about and terrified her - reinforced the idea that being ridden wasn't a good thing. the third was just a bit out of her depth, i think.

it got less and less, i think it was about 6 months altogether until i came off the line and went solo. by that time she hadn't tried anything for about 2 months - but i wasn't being the third person she put in hospital! by this time, she'd trot up to me in the field, was perfectly happy to have tack on, and i am to this day the only person she will groom.
after the 2 people had gone, and it was just me and the owner on the end of the rope, she did occasionally try it on. it got to the stage where she'd suck in her breath, go to scoot out, and if i said 'don't' firmly she stopped. she did try to catch me off my guard for a while!

when we were safe enough to go out on walks with owner leading, it declined dramatically and stopped. she started to enjoy working, being ridden was a chance to go out and have fun, and so she stopped objecting. she also learned that doing as she was told wasn't always bad, and that i was her boss and that while i wouldn't take any nonsense, i also never hurt her or scared her.

after about a year, we were in the show ring and learning to jump - these days she is a perfect ride for her owner and the girl who shows her.

[Lucy J]

ooh. lots of replies here. thinking about it, it is me who does 99% of the ground work, so possibly he is a bit more nervous than if it was someone else on his back and me leading him. it took a long time to get his trust, and he does respect me. perhaps more people need to handle him.

yes, he is being brought on to sell, although we don't want to have him too long he won't be sold before he is ready he has such a sweet nature and tries very hard to understand what you want. he will make a great childs pony when the time comes.

we have managed to lead him round the school on both reins, which is a step forward from him not wanting to walk at all. we got to that stage by using a back of sugar beet first.

anyway, i will take into account everything that has been said here and see what he is like tomorrow night.

if you don't hear from me you'll know it didn't go well! :eek:

[shakari]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
I once read somewhere that any horse who bucks (minus one who bucks out of pain) is not considered "broke" because it has not yet MENTALLY yielded to the concept of a person on its back.


Ever heard of high spirits?? I used to have a national level showjumper-the little git would do an impressive rodeo show whenever we got to a show ground because it was just so damn exciting yet he was the most impressive responsive ride I've ever had the pleasure of owning!! A horse that sold for near £10,000-you could hardly of called him unbroken or unaccepting of a rider.:D

[Dizzy]

Lucy, when you long rein, is he relaxed and obedient, and when you get on, what do you do, and how do you distribute your weight?

By what do you do, I mean do you bend and stay low, talk to him, scratch his kneck and make him aware of you, and slowly grow, until you can sit up straight, allowing him to get used to seeing you on top, before you ask forward.

How do you distribute your weight, by that I mean, do 'sit' on him, or stand astride him and gently ooze your weight around his back.

Having us up top and bearing our weight is completely alien to young horses, regardless of how much ground you put in.

I disagree strongly that he should move forward for a bribe (sugar beet) I'd use as strong a measure as takes to get forward motion.

I'd fit his head collar snuggly and clip onto the inside ring. I'd stand in line with his nose and have a driving whip in my outside hand and ask for 'walk on' and at the same time swing the whip around his arse. If he bolts forward give consistant give and take on the line so that he circles you. He'll eventually dribble to halt - praise and ask again, repeat this until he understands that you'll restrict forward, unless its on your terms. Allow him to object, but don't allow him forward, let him circle you, be prepared to give good yanks to keep him on the circle.

As soon as he's at a stand still, praise, ask him to step back, then to walk on. If he stutters repeat the process. Teach him you only deal in black and white, give him absolutely no grey area. At first keep schooling time short, so that all you do is overcome his insecurity and objection, and reward it with praise. At first I'd be happy with 'walk on' 'halt' and one step back, praise him and call it day.

All the best and good luck.

[varkie]

I apologise if I'm repeating something another poster has put, but I'm assuming this pony has had teeth, back & saddle checked?

[Lucy J]

Dizzy

He is fantastic at lunging, still working on long reining though.

I get on him firstly by just leaning across his back. once he is happy walking around like that then i climb on board slowly, leaning forward then i gradually sit up straight.

as he doesn't mind being sat on i generally just sit on him rather than ooze my weight around.

perhaps we should be a little firmer, we do have a tendancy to use carrots and mix to distract him when he gets upset - stops him from wanting to run away. maybe try that at the weekend. weather been too bad to do much the last few days.

[Mehitabel]

i'd be inclined not to use food. it's addressing the symptoms, not the cause. you don't want to distract him from you being on his back, you need him to accept it and work it out that it's fine. he can't do that if he's focused on his food - one minute he's eating and all he is thinking about is his gut, the next he has someone sat on him and 'when the hell did that happen, i never noticed, she's sat on me, how did she get up there, heeeelp!' it's a bit like homer simpson and his immediate distraction by doughnuts - 'nuclear meltdown, oh n- ooh, doughnuts.'