Do you feed treats?

[Sooty]

Hi all

I happened to listen to a radio broadcast on Leslie Desmond's site where she states that she is quite emphatically against the hand feeding of horses - in fact, she won't allow any hand-fed horses into any of her clinics. She says that it causes all kinds of respect problems - even problems mounting was mentioned, as was dropping the left shoulder (don't quite understand that bit).
Unfortunately, the darned interviewer talked as much as Leslie did, so she didn't actually discuss these points in any real depth.

She did say that one would see a noticable difference in one's horse's behaviour within a very short time of stopping. Whilst my horse does not have any major behavioual problems he continues to be difficult to hold still for mounting, so I thought I'd stop for a bit and see what happens. Poor thing was very confused this afternoon when I dropped the treats I usually feed him by hand (for being a good boy after having his feet picked out) into his feed bowl :p But at least he still got them.

So, my question is - what does everyone think? How valid is Leslie's argument? the fact is, if you mix the treats in with the feed the horse is still getting them so not being deprived. And I guess the horse doesn't actually like you any more for giving them to him/her ....in fact, I doubt that liking is in any way part of a horse's behaviour (as opposed, of course, to respect)

Very interested to know what everyone else thinks about this issue. Apologies if this has already been discussed recently - I have a brain like a sieve :o

[Echo64]

My horse walks away when I get on, and I've become so accustomed to it that I can barely mount on a non-moving horse. I've practiced mouting and dismounting in the stall where he has no where to go, and that seems to be much easier solution for me anyway.

About the hand feeding, I think it's all crap. All of my horses are hand-fed, and I've used it to bond with them somewhat. You pay attention and want cuddles (to shy horses) then you get rewarded for it. I haven't had any bargy or ill behaved animals over a cookie.

I'm actually a little upset to see that woman talking about how she won't let hand fed horses into her clinics. That'd be like me saying, "I don't want any seal bay horses in my clinic because I've already had two in my barn and I don't want anymore." Completely ridiculous.

[Bobbi77]

I can see the point made - when we first got my daughter's pony Lady she was very "nippy" always looking for treats because my daughter loved to hand feed her. We actually stopped hand feeding her because we were afraid that Fern may get nipped - she immediately stopped the nipping.

However, when we took Holly on, who had been starved of human contact it was a way of building a bond with her and possibly being an older horse we had no nipping from her - just gentle nuzzling at times. It has definitely made a difference to the bonding process.

I think that it does depend on the particular horse - a youngster is more likely to get nippy anyhow. Only prob we have is that now we are back to hand feeding both of them as I like to treat them alike (same as my kids) and Lady the little one has learnt how to unzip my pockets by pulling on the toggles and so now nothing in my pockets is sacred I have to be careful what I have in there!)

A lot of people don't believe in "humanising" their horses, I think like a lot of aspects of horse ownership it's a matter of opinion and depends on the individual.

Bobbi

[Dreamchaser]

That sounds ridiculous!

[Kalypso]

I've heard both and honestly I think it not only depends on the horse, but how you treat the horse and what you let him/her get away with. My pony was hand-fed treats, but I NEVER let her search for them...she got a nice hard swat if she went for my pockets or anything. and i ALWAYS made her work for them...i did not walk into her stall with them, i made her come to me, stand there a moment, then fed her the treats. Kallie NEVER nipped, even if I were to put my hand right under her mouth. However we have a young horse at our barn whose owners not only hand fed him but ALSO let him walk all over them. he does nip...and very hard as I've been bitten several times while mucking his stall. he is very pushy and stuff, although he doesn't get hand fed anymore. I guess he'll just take time though
sorry it's a bit long, but it does kinda make me mad that people generalize everything!! :rolleyes:

[galadriel]

Here's my method for teaching horses to stand for mounting:
http://trainersnotes.lorienstable.com/voice_commands/stand_for_mounting.html
Note the use of treats :)

I hand a treat to each of my horses after mounting. They do more or less expect it, but I make sure they'll do it without the treat often enough to be sure they don't think they're entitled. They stand to be mounted every time.

I hand feed treats when I feel it's appropriate, and I don't if they seem to feel entitled; I want them to know that it's a privilege ;) and that they can't have treats just for begging. It works well for me.

I don't tend to hand feed treats to horses who are mouthy; a lot of the time they're already looking for an excuse to mouth you anyway ;) and associating your hands with treats is just the excuse they might grab onto. I understand, however, that clicker training properly will actually *reduce* this tendency; the horse comes to the full realization that the treats are a reward for behavior, and is less likely to mug you and more likely to try to pull tricks ("I can bow! See?? I can shake! See??" ;))--although of course that's something else to discourage in good clicker training.

I think rejecting *any* concept out of hand, unless is it cruel, is probably closed-minded.

[ponytude]

This isa very hot topic. I know some people say that hand feeding is a way to connect with your horse while others say it provokes nipping and unwanted habbits. At our barn we do not hand feed horses. Their treats go in their feed buckets so they know its a treat. Also their was a boarded horse some stables who had his feed bin at his back wall so people would hand feed him treats. It was a bad habit for the owner to work him out of.


PONYTUDE

[makebelieve]

I think the hand feeding thing is also crap.

Where would Solo's relationship with me be? She has been hand fed by me and her previous temporary home. I have no intentions of stopping it. It has never caused any problems. I have always hand fed my horses, and don't plan to stop anyway.

[KarinUS]

I have noticed a differnce in the type of treats fed with my horse in regards to what keeps him poliye and what makes him mouthy.
My OH gave DJ a jar of Mrs Pastures' Horse Cookies for Christmas and it's still nearly full because DJ gets so mouthy when he gets one.
So I am back to good old carrots which seem to be appreciated yet don't elicit the unwanted side effects...

[T-bred]

I agree with Kalypso that it depends on the horse!!! My horse if he gets treats does not act good to get them he thinks that he deserves them and so he demands them and is very bad and he should probably be cut off[which is a bad thing because I have a treat giving disease and just like to hand them out LOL!!]. I am getting better though he only gets 1 treat a day!!:D Then there are the horses that will behave really well so that they are rewarded[oh how I wish I had a horse like that!!!] Well that is what I think!!!

Anna

[Showjumper]

I give Dolly treats by hand. She doesn't snatch, bite, or do anything rude, because that means withdrawal of treats.

Being patient and polite is what gets little ponies treats and she knows it :D

[Bebe]

I think the mounting being a problem due to feeding treats, and dropping a shoulder is a load of rubbish! My horse pretty much parks herself at the mounting block because she knows she'll get a treat for it. She also almost puts her own bridle on - drops her head and takes the bit - because she knows a treat is on the way afterwards.

I don't tolerate mouthiness, though she's quite bad with other people and I have occasionally had to tell individuals off for constantly supplying her with treats as that just makes her worse. She doesn't nip though. It doesn't stop her from asking (she usually taps the ground with her hoof when she wants a treat, if I don't want to give her one I ignore her but she's so cute I usually give her one) though.

I do a bit of clicker training with her too so hand feed treats as a reward.

A friend has a very strict policy of not hand feeding her horses but they're all incredibly mouthy and are constantly in my pockets looking for sweets even though I don't ever feed them. They're much worse than any of the horses on the yard that are fed by hand.

[Alibi]

I only give treats as a reward, when one of my horses has done something right. Feeding treats here, there and everywhere can cause problems, but if not over done can be very useful training aid. Its definately about giving treats at the right time and looking at the individual horse too, i tend to give my greedy fat cobs a good old scratch of their itchy sorts as a reward, rather than food - they probably appreciate a itch more than a treat!

[HAYLEY GITTOES]

I do give Molly treats as she dosnt get 'mouthy!'.

But last year i had a young horse and she was very pushy, so i decided not to give her them.

As people have stated above, it does depend on the horse.

[dophi_arno]

I dont hand feed Harashee treats while riding/training, only because of his personality and his past. His old owner never did, and I find if I give him some then he'll lose complete focus on what we are doing and just try to search for more. He also never stood still for mounting in the past, but we have worked through that without the use of treats. I do however ocassionally give him an apple or something when I see him in the afternoon, just to say hi and re-enforce that I love him :)

[pickleweasel]

I thinks it's all about common sense really.

I don't see anything wrong with the feeding of *healthy* treats as a 'you've-been-ever-so-good' gesture or even just because you're really pleased to see your horse, but you do see some people who are quite happy to have their horses mug them for treats all the time. My father used to do this with his horse, and whilst he thought it was quite endearing for her to frisk his pockets (and get quite stroppy when no treats were forthcoming I might add), I certainly didn't! Being pinned against the wall by a snappy 16.2 Irish Draught mare when you're 13 and 4'6" wasn't my (nor many other peoples) idea of fun ...

So, as long as the treat in question is taken politely and not demanded, I don't see a problem. I usually give Spillers Meadow Herb cubes - approx £2.50 for a 1kg bag (they smell a bit peculiar, but horses seem to like them!) :)

[Mehitabel]

in moderation, as a reward, fine. but not randomly all the time so the horse is constantly thinking 'i might get a treat any second, let's see if i can get one now'.

we ask people not to give treats to the riding school horses - if they feed the one they've ridden, immediately the one tied next to it starts creating, then they get jealous, then things go pearshaped. also, when the next rider gets off, they'll be expecting a treat and might bite in frustration when they don't get one.

so overall, i prefer not to - i will give carrots on the floor instead. it does depend on personality, some will get pushy and some will stay polite, but i'd rather generalise towards the negative end rather than risk someone getting chomped. ours get a scratch and a cuddle as praise during an exercise, and a carrot on the floor afterwards.

[Lovecat]

Murphy is in a stable that directly faces the school yard and is on the through passage to the horse walker and muck heap - during the day it is a busy place with lessons etc and loads of kids and their parents around.

Despite my best attempts to teach him not to be grabby (and it being strictly against yard policy to feed the horses anything without owners' permission), I am certain that people must give him treats over his door because anyone standing in the vicinity having a conversation is likely to feel his lips questing at their hands, shoulders, elbows, ears....amazing how far his neck can stretch!! :rolleyes:

He knows with me that he will only get his treats in the stable after he's worked and only then after he has backed up to let me in. The 'disadvantage' of that is, if I remain in the stall to do things after the treats have gone, he will continue to back up in the hope of more carrots, until this chunky 16hh part-draught is squished up as far as he can get into the furthest corner of the 10 by 12 stable, looking at me imploringly 'but mum, see how far I've backed up, give me my carrots!' Ridiculous animal....;)

And I should never have done carrot stretches with him - he cottoned on to that straight away but now if I'm doing up his surcingles or brushing his tummy he'll stretch down or around and have a nosey to see if I've secreted a carrot about my person.... but we are slowly getting recognition of me holding my hands up in the air to him and saying 'all gone!'... well, it works for my cats....

I've had to put the clicker training on hold as he has not ever progressed beyond the 'excited and grabby' stage - the more treats he gets the more excited he becomes and until I have the spare time and an extra body to do this properly I think it's best not done at all. He gets so pushy when he knows I've got food available - unless I've backed him up - that I don't think he even hears the clicker - and I'm not co-ordinated enough to do things as the book says I should!

[Yann]

I don't agree with the original opinion either. I think it the effect on the horse's behaviour of treating depends on your relationship with it, not just the fact of treating.

I treat extensively, usually in response to particular situations or actions and occaisionally because Rio is cute or has asked nicely. I don't tolerate any pushiness and don't normally get it either. Treats can be a brilliant training tool, because she knows she'll get something Rio will come out through the field gate, walk a couple of yards and then stand while I fasten it for example.

Pleased to say our clicker training has gone quite well so far, it's essentially added a click and a bit of structure to what we were doing before. It certainly adds a lot of enthusiasm to the proceedings:) You do tend to get offered behaviours when you aren't always expecting them, but I take that as a sign of intelligence!

[Canaan's Mom]

I am glad that you started this discussion. I usually gave Canaan treats at least 4 or 5 times in a visit/ride....I THEN found that he was searching for them for constantly, as if that is all he could think about! So I decided to stop before he became too obnoxious. Now I will only give him a treat once I put him away for the night (if we've had a good day) so that we will end on a pleasant note. This is "new" for him - so last night for instance, he was a little confused by it (I think) - but I want him to do things because he is willing to yield to ME and not because he wants to get another apple treat. Heaven forbid - what happens if I would ever run out?!

Also, I may be new at this but I see nothing wrong with feeding him a treat by hand if he is respectful about it - which he is (he is always careful to avoid contact with any stray finger I may display). Of course I have found that 'open hand, palm up treats' is also a technique to avoid unwanted contact with horsey teeth anyway ;)

[casey]

I NEVER hand feed the stallions or colts, as they're nippy b***ers anyway. But I do reward the mares and geldings with treats.

[lisae]

I had heard or read Desmond on this topic and her premise as I remember it is that when you are hand-feeding, the horse steps into your space, leans towards you, and the hand feeder must lean back or even step away from the horse and this causes the horse to perceive it is dominant. She seemed to be of the opinion that even that very subtle interaction between horse and human would color the entire relationship in the horse's favor. That's how I remember it. That said, I agree that it depends on the horse!

[ros]

I'm glad you started this topic too! Only this morning my friend was - well, not exactly telling me off for giving Merly treats, but we agreed to differ. ;)

She is of the opinion that a horse should do whatever you ask of it simply because it wants to please you. She concedes that treats might be justified if you have to do something not altogether pleasant to the horse and he allows you to (like administering medicines, maybe) but she certainly doesn't think they're necessary whilst out riding.

I, on the other hand, really can't see the harm in rewarding a horse with something edible if he's made an effort for me - maybe a manoeuvre really well executed, or a sudden breakthrough of understanding... (I don;t tend to reward for passing spoky things, because that would be admitting it was something to be scared of ;) ).

I don't think I give treats for no good reason, except perhaps other than at bedtime, and that's a set time and occasion. Dear old Frank was never EVER mouthy and everyone used to feed him, on all sorts of unsuitable foodstuffs - Kit-Kats, crisps, mints, you name it, he never turned anything down but he never nipped or bit anyone either; Merly has always been mouthy, and for the first 12 months I had him I was extremely careful about hand-feeding (i.e. I very rarely did it) but although he's not really grown out of the habit, he's not at all malicious - more like an absent-minded puppy :rolleyes: - so I stopped worrying.

I do believe my horse often derives pleasure from simply pleasing me, but at the same time I don't flatter myself so far as to think that a pat on the neck is always quite enough!

[Tootsie4U]

I am a bit rushed, so I apologise if its been said already,.

Horses are not capable of viewing food as a reward. Dogs, cats, animals like that naturally (in even undomesticated ways) use food as a way to show affection and submission to other members of their pack.

When have you ever seen a horse give another horse a food reward for doing the right thing or for being affectionate?

Now and then I give Bonfire a treat after a long hard workout by hand because #1 Im too lazy to use a bucket and because #2 there is no bucket around. Other times he'll get a treat in his feed because I love him and I do it for myself.

I see many benefits from NOT feeding treats by hand.

[shakari]

Shikari is NOT allowed treats -although I occasionally catch people slipping him the odd carrot and they get the a whole speal of why not to. He is a horse who EXPECTS a treat for nothing ALL the time. He will stand in his stables and batter the door with his front leg if he can see anyone, lipping for food (this is a horse who is fed truck loads of feed!!!!) He is also naturally a big bolshy horse who throws his weight around.

Woody is fed treats all the time, he was completely wild until he was 5 (a year ago) and then he was parelli'd by previous owner-which he did not take to and resulted in him being nervy and twitchy-He is given a reward after he does somthing good, i.e lets me jumps all around him with my arms and legs flapping while singing and dancing without batting an eyelid (mental image?)-then he gets a treat and he knows it. He's intelligent and has learned very quickly that good behaviour equals a few pony nuts. He would never take me on in a fight whereas shikari would batter me to death if he thought he's get a mouth full of mouldy carrot-see the difference??!!!:D :D

[AJB]

Lovecat I think your murphs and my boy must be leading a a parrallel life-they are so alike!!:D like yours mine is on a throughfare to the muck heap on a busy yard and like you despite pleadings and words not to, he gets treats from all and sundy and therefore expects them!!---arghhh I get "oh I gave Bailey a carrot earlier cos he was kicking the door when I went past!""-anyway we move in a few weeks and thankfully away from the place which is teaching him bad habits-my lad gets a treat when hes good in a lesson but like Shakari's hes big and can be bolshy and mouthy so I avoid hand treats-instead he gets a rub on his face and good boy etc-one thing that really bugs me is my co field sharer will give the horses a polo or two when she comes down to catch them and then moans that my horse is hassling her etc-I try to point out that hes young and shes causing it and please not to do it but no-water and ducks back etc-anyway as said not for much longer-yipeeee

[Yann]

Interesting viewpoint Tootsie - If so how does clicker training work? Food definitely appears to be a reward there as the horse will clearly offer a behaviour in order to obtain it.

It isn't possible for horses to give each other food as a reward as such in the wild, other than by permitting a subordinate horse to graze nearby? Sounds feasible actually.

[Dizzy]

I only give them in a bucket - after they've worked. I used to give as a reward during work, but my coloured 3 yr old fettled that - she is so food orientated, and sharp, if I said 'good girl' she looked instantly for a reward.

I want her to work for ME, not a carrot. So I stopped, I had a few naughty, resentful reactions at first - which I ignored, but carried on asking, increasing my authority on each request. She's a good girl at heart, and after a couple of strops, she gave and I called it a day.

I kept the next couple of schooling sessions short and sweet, and we've never looked back.

Tootsie, where my horses are kept, there are 3 mares that run 'out together. I put 3 piles of hay out twice a day, every day, twice a day, the 2 chestnut mares who absolutely dote on each other, always share a heap, and my coloured mare eats alone. Breeze and Penny (the chestnuts) will share a bucket feed - 2 heads in 1 bucket feed, in my eyes (though I do call them 'soppy trollops') I put it down to the great affection they have for each other'.

'Horses are not capable of viewing food as a reward' - I'd love to hear why you think this.

[lisae]

I have to add my two cents, too - we had a colt that we bought at the sale with Serenade, same age, he adored her absolutely and even though they were at the bottom of the heap in the heirarchy, he would let her at the grain and then try to keep the others away. So, he both gave her the treat first and tried to ensure she got to enjoy it! He wouldn't even defend his own tub as strongly.

[virtuallyhorses]

I feed lots of treats and don't have any problems with mounting or anything much else come to that. In fact one of the training aids for 'stand' and wait when mounting was a treat , which was only provided once I had settled into the saddle and sat there for 30 seconds. My horse now stands happily by any object that I care to use for a mounting block and waits patiently for the cue to move off. The only 'undesirable' is that he tends to watch you - he'll bend his head right around to my leg to see if there's a treat on offer - but since he's not moving his feet or any other part of his body - and since NH trainers consider this a positive behaviour - disengaging. I don't have any problem with it at all - he looks a bit disappointed when there's no treat (most times now since this is a well embedded skill) but that's life and he simply gets on with his work - in the hope that something he does well will be worthy of a treat :D - he is very focused on food ;)

Treats are just one level of reward tho' - there's also relaxation, scratches\grooming etc I actually believe that food treats can work extremely well with horses like Shikari - their motivation is extremely high :D if you can focus them treats can be a winning formula (but it's only one part of the picture)

Tootsie have to totally disagree with your logic on many levels. Surely any pleasant experience is a reward and horses definitely see food as pleasant... and can associate it as a reward for a behviour provided it happens within a few seconds of the behaviour. Whether this is a learned 'reward' or a natural horse society one doesn't make it 'not a reward' Horses don't 'give' any sort of reward to one another in that sense - they punish, withold or allow but not 'reward' :confused:

[Alex]

Milly gets her carrots and apples hand fed to her, and she has never been 'mouthy' about it. I like that I can feed her like this, as I really feel that it's an important bonding process for us both.

I do think it depends on the horse though...

[TBEventer2002]

I, too, would like to hear why horses cannot perceive treats as a reward, aside from the fact that the reward must be immediate and that is difficult when riding. :) Nonetheless, isn't treat-rewards how most other species are taught? Don't whales and dolphins receive a favorite fish when they are first training, in addition to the whistle, in order to associate the whistle with a good reward, gradually weaning from the physical treat and relying only on the whistle? Not trying to disagree, just curious as to the basis of your thoughts. :)

Personally, I base the need for hand-fed treats on each individual horse. Several of our horses can accept hand treats quite politely, and they often just get the treats out of the kindness of our hearts. However, my filly and my gelding are both rather pushy and ONLY get their treats on their tubs or on the ground. My filly gets hers like that as she truly thinks she is human and has no personal space at all. :rolleyes: But she is never mean about it, it just annoys me. As she is merely a pasture ornament in the growing process at this time, she gets treats rarely, but for no particular reason at all. ;)

My gelding gets his treats on the ground or in his tub only when I think he deserves them (after a good lesson, when he is good in his stall while I am in there, etc.). He and I often go back and forth in dominance as we are both control freaks (I have to give him rather sharp reminders every few days), so anytime that I can give him a reward WITHOUT him coming into my space is plenty. I agree with the fact that even the most subtle advance towards me (with only my gelding, you see, as all my other horses realize that they are not in charge) -- even just a slight turn of the head towards me without me asking -- is a show of dominance. If you all could visit with Rumby for just a few minutes, you would understand why I am so strict with him on that. :) Also, another reason for no hand treats at all for him as I am currently nursing a missing chunk from my arm that he enjoyed taking. :rolleyes:

P.S. What do you all perceive as suitable treats? I heard that carrots have a high dose of sugar in them. I personally feed hay cubes, peppermints, and Cheerios cereal (hey, never goes bad, doesn't freeze, all-natural). :D

[Lovecat]

Carrots have far less sugar in them than peppermints....

[Tootsie4U]

If you follow Monty Roberts, in his book he says that he watched a mare do "join up" with a misbehaving colt. The colt's discipline was over when the mare allowed him to eat and rejoin the herd. Was the mare rewarding the colt? I dont think so, not in the way we're speaking of "reward" here.


Food is a motivator, not a reward. Two different things, and thats why it can work in clicker training. The bit in your horses mouth is also a motivator, so is the crop you carry. Its dependant entirely on the way the horse views it. Humans view food as a reward and as in so many other things, human emotion gets mixed up in horse training.

I've read quite a few articles on it... I'll see if I can find some of them. Im sure they can explain better than I can :p

[NVA]

I don't have my own horse but tend to carry a couple of treats during a lesson to give to the lesson horse afterwards if they've been good...no-one at the school has pulled me up about it but is it a bad habit to get into?

Cheers
N

[Tor&Warrior]

I would have to disagree on horses not seeing treats as a reward. Treats are nice and a pleasant things so when recieved for doing something good this is a reward. Horses aren't stupid they will soon realise that when their good they'll get a treat. Just because it is not something you would see withina wild heard, it just means its a learned behaviour rather than an inate (instinct). For example when my friend bought a racer straight off the track he was a night mare to mount so I'd always have a polo every time she got on. He took very little time to realise if he stood still he'd get a polo. He did look for it to start but we'd rather he was nosing around for a polo than taking off the second she had her foot in the stirrup. We slowly weaned him off and he no longer expects a polo and stands like an angel.
I also don't think it right that a horse shouldn't get a reward for something they have done for us. They do not have to work for us, they don't owe us anything. I always carry polos or treats when I ride and if he's been good he'll get a treat whether were half way around a hack or in the middle of a lesson. And he always gets something at the end of a hack. But he never looks or expects treats.
Treats can be a sign of affection or bonding. I don't mean that give a horse a polo and they'll love you for life but if they'll realise if your giving them nice food your hardly about to eat them!
What evidence did this lady have to come to a conclusion like she did because I'd really like to see it!
I've hand-fed treats to all my horses and NEVER had mouthyness, biting, bolshyness or any lack of respect. Everybody is aloud there opions but they should not be forced apon others like she is doing saying hand fed horses are not allowed in her clinics. I personally think it is absolute rubbish. Yes you always have to consider the individual horse & environment, a riding school for exampe I agree hand feeding treats should not be allowed. I don't feed Vinny treats because he's a colt and a nippy enought little sod as it is but that doesn't mean I wouldn't feed him them in 5 years time. I really think before anybody can say that treats cause such problems they need to prove it.

[Tootsie4U]

T&W, Im just going to use your thread as an example... nothing more, please take no offense :) You are very much entitled to feel the way you do. :)

Originally posted by Tor&Warrior
Treats are nice and a pleasant things so when recieved for doing something good this is a reward.

They do not have to work for us, they don't owe us anything.

All human emotions.

Originally posted by Tor&Warrior
Treats can be a sign of affection or bonding.

For you or the horse? Its just food for the horse, its not love. If you take two bags of carrots to the barn with you tonight and give every horse one carrot, is that horse now bonded with you? I think all you've done is fill his belly... ;)

I feed my horse treats, yes I do, but more so because I enjoy it, not because it does anything for our training. Bonfire isnt in a wild herd, but if I insisted that he go into his field and pick some berries and give them out to his buddies as a treat (reward) he'd fall on the floor laughing.

Disclaimer: These are just my opinions and thoughts on the subject. I am not selling anything, so you dont have to buy ... Take it or leave it. Its just Tootsie's two cents worth :D

[Tor&Warrior]

I still disagree. I'm sorry but when a horse chooses to do something, the example of my friends ex-racer, because they will get a treat, this is reward. He made the decision to stand still after being mounted because he got polos. He was being rewarded for his actions. What would you say it is if not reward?
I don't mean by giving a horse one carrot you've bonded for life. For example when I went to buy Vinny he was living in a wild herd and couldn't be handled. The way we got him out of a field was by poles and pony nuts. No we weren't bonded for life by this but it had basicually said to him in a language he could understand that I wasn't going to hurt him because I was offering him food. Horses wouldn't do it between themselves because like I said its a learned behaviour between man and horse not between and horse, because if it could be learned between horse and horse you would see it taking place in wild herds.

[Tootsie4U]

As I said, feel free to disagree, tis ok by me. :) I threw in another viewpoint, thats all, I dont expect anyone else to see it that way.

You (human) view it as a reward. Vinny (horse) views it as a motivator... to be caught, handled, stand for mounting, etc. Not a reward.

Bottom line.

[Tor&Warrior]

Yeah I don't expect anybody to agree with me either.

Whether you call it a motivator or a reward I see it as the same thing, making a desicion to take action (being caught, stanidng etc) to recieve the end result, the treat? And are they not only motivated because they will recieve the treat. If they weren't motivated for reward it would be for self satisfaction , and I know for sure my horses wont do anything they don't want to just so they feel good about them selves!!:D

[TBEventer2002]

I love a good discussion, so Tootsie, you are my opponent. :) You have wonderful viewpoints, and I wish just to bring you to a brink sometimes. :)

If you do not see food as a reward, what is a pat on the neck for a good try? Or letting out the girth after a good workout? Or releasing on the reins when the horse gives? Are those not rewards for doing the desired effect? A horse is not motivated to work hard because he knows you will pat him on the neck afterwards. He realizes that his behavior was correct because the result of his effort was PLEASANT. Anytime something is done that receives something pleasant in return involves rewarding.

The line that I draw is when people give treats "just because". I do that, too, so I am not condemning it. I would not consider food then to be a reward, merely a "treat" by definition. Only when a pleasant thing follows a chosen action by the horse should it be considered a reward.

Sorry, but I think my pony seems pretty content and happy to have food in his tummy, so food must be pleasant. :)

I love you, Tootsie!!! You are always good for an active discussion! ;)

[Tor&Warrior]

Have to agree Tootsie your great for debates and I love debates!! So none of this is personal still love ya your just so good at it:D So maybe its your fault for starting it cause your good at it........:rolleyes: :D

[morgan+rose]

HI personaly DONT feed my horse by hand or give her treats. Why?? is the question. Horses didnt get given treats in the wild and certainly not by a human hand. Shes not missing out on anything by not ahving and treats. She is always fed on the floor and her hay is given on the floor.Why have a hay net??(to make the stable look pretty)(not to waste hay)its only natural for a horse to eat off the floor not at their head height.
Feeding a horse treats does have its outcomes for every horse. I once moved yards with my mare and for the first time someone else was turning her out in the mornings instead of me.within a week i noticed her nudging me,nibbling, invading my space, using prssure to look for treats.this is al becasue the man started giving her mints.So she expected it everytime she went in the stable and this caused pushy behaviour.And i had to put it right.

its differnt for different horses but being given treats in my eyes can cause this type of behaviour.

[Tootsie4U]

I agree with you TB eventer, I really do 100%. A horse will work for a "release" or a pat, scratch, verbal praise. But food does not have to be used as a reward. Do you think your horse works *harder* if food is involved than he would for a good loud "GOOD BOY!!!" ? Humans view and use food as a reward in our own lives so we see it as an appropriate thing for our horses. The reality is that horses genetic makeup does not view food rewards the same way we do.

It can be used as a tool, I guess. But I think it shouldn't be used as a primary tool, regular part of the routine. Bonfire will run to me in his turnout when I call to him. He'll probably be motivated to run faster if I rattle a feed can. The food has motivated him to run faster. He doesnt view it like "if I run faster, I'll get a treat..." He views it as "oh boy, food! I better hurry up."

Under saddle, after a long work out, I hand him a treat as a way to say thank you but I still stand by my claim that it has more to do with my emotion than his. His reward is the release, pat, scratch, verbal praise.

[Tootsie4U]

We're all a big happy family here. I hardly ever take offense, its all personal viewpoints.. a big melting pot!

And, yes! Debating is in my blood! :p

[TBEventer2002]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Do you think your horse works *harder* if food is involved than he would for a good loud "GOOD BOY!!!" ?

Yes, but only if they initially hear/see/sense the food in some way before or during the behavior, right (refer to your running faster in the paddock when you rattle can example)? If you give a treat at the end, they have worked towards that PLEASANT finishline, either by their own accord or not. As long as the food isn't sensed during the behavior but only after, the horse isn't thinking, "Ooo! FOOD!" He is thinking, "Oh, she wants me to pick my foot up...Wow, surprise! I picked my foot up and out came food! Because food is good, I must have done the right thing! Maybe I should pick my foot up more often!" See what I mean? I am sorry for explaining so poorly! :)

Bonfire will run to me in his turnout when I call to him. He'll probably be motivated to run faster if I rattle a feed can. The food has motivated him to run faster. He doesnt view it like "if I run faster, I'll get a treat..." He views it as "oh boy, food! I better hurry up."

Again, YOU have enticed him to run to you by rattling the can. If you were to, say, call him, he comes to you, you give him a previously-unnoticed treat, he is apt to think, "Wow, I came to her, I get food!" He may be more encouraged to come to you in the paddock as time goes on, and this can lead to what you are saying about how the food becomes a motivator. HOWEVER, that is why when training using treats, they say to begin weaning them off the treats by making your behavior become erratic (I learned all this in a psychology class last year -- wish I had my notes in front of me!), meaning that once the horse is conditioned that coming means food, you should stop giving the food for a while, then give it again, then maybe not give it, then give it again -- all at irregular lengths of time. Because the horse is learning that he can't be guaranteed FOOD upon each arrival to you in the paddock, he actually already has a learned behavior -- to come when called. If he gets a treat, great! It's a nice touch to keep reminding him that the behavior he is performing is still acceptable.

ADDED: Kind of like the behavior after a while becomes mechanical -- the food at sporadic times is like, "Neat! I must be still doing OK!"

:D Try that one! (oooo, and I thought today at work was going to be boring!)

Love ya!!!

[Tootsie4U]

But the FOOD did NOT make him do the task in the first place. He wants to do the right thing for acceptance from his leader. When you bring food into the equation, it all changes. You back that up by saying as long as its given AFTER....

The horse, if willing and in good relationships with you, will perform whatever you ask of him whether or not you give him food. WE choose to give food b/c it suits us. I just cannot believe for the life of me right now, that while doing 20 M circles at canter, Bonfire is thinking, if I do this just right, Mom's gonna give me a nice juicy apple at the end. Bull poopies! He doesnt think that way. :D Instead, its more realistic for me to think that while doing those 20 M circles he's thinking, "is this what she wants... where's the release? Ah, there it is, good, phew."

If Bonfire associates coming to me with food, Im in trouble. :eek:

[Tootsie4U]

I should say that I believe food can help encourage a horse to perform a certain function (ie. clicker training & motivators) but I dont think the horse looks at it as a reward. They may make the association that if I put my hoof here, I get food, but not in a reward fashion.

[TBEventer2002]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
I should say that I believe food can help encourage a horse to perform a certain function (ie. clicker training & motivators) but I dont think the horse looks at it as a reward. They may make the association that if I put my hoof here, I get food, but not in a reward fashion.

OK, but what do you offer your horse when he puts his foot where you want it? It must be a reward of some sort, and often that reward from the owner is food. Without reward, why would the horse want to do it? I am not saying by any means is food the only reward, but when used in this context, it can be.

Also, according to older studies by much older people, they say that in order for a behavior to be associated with a particular reward to show that the behavior was in fact desired and performed correctly, it must be given within 3 seconds. I don't think my horse canters a 20m circle because he thinks he'll get a treat. I agree with you on the fact that post-ride treats aren't necessarily rewards. I hold by, however, my previous statement that a reward must be given right AFTER the behavior with no enticement from the reward itself (whatever it may be, food, pats, etc.) during or before the behavior.

At this time, I would like to quote www.dictionary.com:

re·ward ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-wôrd)
n.
Something given or received in recompense for worthy behavior or in retribution for evil acts.
Money offered or given for some special service, such as the return of a lost article or the capture of a criminal.
A satisfying return or result; profit.
Psychology. The return for performance of a desired behavior; positive reinforcement.

:) According to this, any "return for performance of a desired behavior" is considered a "reward." When using food to teach a horse something, you are giving the horse a "return" for the "desired behavior" which just may so happen to be a morsel of food. :)

[Mehitabel]

but does it really matter whether the horse sees is as a motivator or a reward? as long as it's a useful tool for reinforcing good behaviour and not an excuse to get pushy and nibbly.

i'm also not really getting the difference in definitions either. i suspect we agree at the root of it, we usually do!

[TBEventer2002]

WELL SAID, ES!!!!!

I am having so much fun, and learning, too, about how other people view things (I am STARTING to slowly agre with you, Tootsie, on some of your finer points!)... Like I said in another thread, it's like learning about other cultures!!! ;)

[Tootsie4U]

Human dictonary written based on human emotions...made in a human context ;)

Here's one article I've found so far...

http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/reward.shtml

Im still searching desperately for the one that fits in exactly with my viewpoint... argh! :D


And in responce to your very first question in that last reply, if he would put his foot in the spot where I want it, I could reward with anything positive, and that includes food. My argument is that horses do not need a food reward to learn that task. In fact, in giving a food reward, youre only getting short term benefits b/c horses do not think the same way about food rewards as we humans do.

I'll keep looking for that other article but I think I've about exhausted my point :D I keep saying the same thing over and over :D hee hee

[TBEventer2002]

Ohhhhhhhhh! *light bulb starts to come on*

I am understanding now. At least we agree that food CAN be used as a REWARD. :D

I am done arguing. I agree that they do't necessarily NEED the reward to be food -- a reward can be anything, but it most definately can be food. That's all I wanted. :D

Love y'all!!!

ADDED: I would like to quote the website you listed above:

"If you have to give your horse grain, carrots, etc. to get him to step in the trailer that's bribery. But, if you give your horse the grain after they are in the trailer and standing quietly that's a reward. It's a subtle difference, but the behavior has to come before the reward."

I TOTALLY agree with this statement. ;)

[Tootsie4U]

An even better one!

QUOTE: Understand that treats are not the most effect way to reward your horse. Horses are creatures of habit and instinct. They do not posses any logical thinking abilities. They can not understand cause and effect. Any reward given for performing a task or exhibiting a desired behavior must occur immediately at the time of the desired action. For example, if you stopped your horse and gave him a carrot every time he jumped a fence nicely, he could not associate the way he jumped the fence with carrot. He would however, develop the habit of stopping after every jump and looking for a carrot, regardless of whether he jumped well or not. He may even start stopping and looking for treats when you are not even jumping. What he does understand is that when he jumps correctly you don't get off balance and jerk on his mouth. The reward is that it physically feels good when he jumps correctly. He knows that he has jumped correctly when you stroke his neck immediately upon the landing. By the time you bring him to a halt, he will not associate anything else with that jump. The same immediacy is essential for effective correction or punishment also. If a treat is consistently given as a reward for any desired behavior, the horse will eventually become more focused on the reward than on performing the desired behavior or task you are asking him to do.

Found here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/5673/66407

[TBEventer2002]

"If a treat is consistently given as a reward for any desired behavior, the horse will eventually become more focused on the reward than on performing the desired behavior or task you are asking him to do."

Solidifying what I mentioned about making the reward erratic over time, sometimes giving sometimes not. :) We are starting to agree!!! Woo hoo!!! ;)

[Tootsie4U]

Right, but is he focusing on the fact that its a "REWARD" or b/c its food? He's not getting "high" on the fact that he's being rewarded, he's high on the fact that he's eating!

First and foremost, to the horse its food. That matters more to them than the 'reward' concept. Therefore is why I say reward does not = food! ;)

Get me? :D

[TBEventer2002]

I can see sort of where you are coming from, in the primal part anyways. But I still see the food as a reward for good behavior, the same as a pat on the neck or release on the reins.

I agree to disagree (but I DO agree with you in some respects!).

:D You've certainly brightened my day! I am more than willing to admit semi-defeat. ;) Good round, Tootsie! You are well-versed when it comes to reasonings.

[Tootsie4U]

I guess in debates someone has to win, so then lets not call this a debate :)

Im happy to leave it that this is what I think, thats what you think. We're both right and if whatever it is works for our horses' then its certainly the right way ;)

Thanks for the discussion (better name for it :D), I had a blast. Poor everyone else, reading along, their heads are probably spinning! :D

[Yann]

Missed the discussion while it was going on but can't say I'm at all convinced by your reasoning, though it has made interesting reading. I think you're splitting the atom a bit in terms of the meaning of words and their definitions. My horse sees being treated a pleasant outcome for a given action, eating the treat gives her pleasure, that's near enough a reward in action for me. Is it too much anthropomorphism to say being given the treat is not having an effect either? Pleasant interaction (such as mutual grooming) promoting bonding is part of the horses natural behaviour.

I can't agree that using food as a training aid only gives short term results, quite the opposite, it's a great motivator for some horses and as others have said here the behaviour becomes embedded and the treat can be withdrawn or randomized leaving the behaviour firmly in place.

As to saying that horses don't understand cause and effect??? Makes them sound very stupid, the writer's obviously not met some of the mares on our yard:D

[virtuallyhorses]

Just one comment (and I've skipped reading much of the last page so apologies if I'm recovering ground that's done to death) - a reward can only occur within a few seconds of the behaviour.

So all the "I give him treats in a bucket after a good workout" people - the horse will not see this as a reward too much time has elapsed. He has know way of knowing that he's now getting a treat because of all the work he did several minutes ago - the horse would only perceive this as food. Indeed its even too non-specific because reward=1 behaviour ie you could reward for the lovely extended trot he's just done but not all the work he's just done in the last 20mins. The horse has no concept of this sort of time, they live in the 'now'. In the case of a work reward, treats don't tend to work then either because its too late - the reward is generally a long rein, praise or a period of relaxation.

So maybe that's where the discussion of treats or rewards is differentiated. I use treats as rewards , but you could use treats just as 'treats' i.e. giving your horse something nice to eat in addition to dinner.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Yann
Pleasant interaction (such as mutual grooming) promoting bonding is part of the horses natural behaviour.


Hi Yann, this is only a discussion. Im not trying to sway anyone into coming to my side. Whatever you believe works for your horse, I encourage you to stick with it. But, what you've just said right there is the basis for *my* entire point of view. Treating is not natural for horses. Rewards of other types, (mutual grooming as you've just said) verbal, pats, scratches, is in fact natural and all the more easier/appropriate/common for a horse to understand after a job well done than dropping food in front of its face. Food is food no matter when its given to them, a pat on the other hand is a pat, a kind outward expression completely obvious to them that they did well. This is just my assessment, just my opinion that I chose to share and since I was questioned, I provided more detail to explain. Not selling anything :)

I choose to not treat Bonfire with food while we do any sort of training. I find it makes things easier. I also have a strong opinion that his reward is time with me, making me happy and me making him happy. I personally would prefer he focus on that than focus on whats in my pocket. He gets treats, ususally in his stall while we do nothing more than enjoy each others company. (This is also in comment to virtually's reply above)

Never did I intend to say that __________ (insert name) is wrong for treating with food. I apologise if my opinion came off that way. :)

[Sooty]

Well, this has certainly given me food for thought (s'cuse the pun :p )

I think I agree with those of you that say it just depends on the horse. I guess as long as the horse doesn't become bargy/nippy as a result then no real harm can come of it.

Tootsie - I can certainly see your point, and I haven't got into the habit of giving Luca treats whilst we're actually working (don't like the idea that he might be constantly turning to me whilst I'm on board in the hope of getting something, and besides, he seems to quite like the scratch on the withers that tells him he's doing well :p )

I think I'll continue to treat occasionally - I enjoy doing it :D

thanks for your thoughts :)

[helenc]

I feed treats if they are deserved. If I'm teaching the horse something new & they behave themselves then they will get a piece of carrot or a polo. They also get treats if they have been good when ridden.

I do not feed treats at other times such as when I first get to the yard or giving a polo when the horses head is stuck over the door at the same time as I happen to walk past.