Which bit for jumping?

[DITZ]

OK a bit of background first...had horse 18mths, hack in french link, sometimes with flash, soetimes with martingale, sometimes with market harborough - you see he is the master of evasion. He is generally very good in this but does have a tendancy to lean in this bit but only when he gets excited and ignores any aids to lighten. Have also tried waterford, also leans in this eventually (after about 6th or 7th use). I have tried to jump him in the french link but it was terrible. When we were first teaching him he got too strong in it, we persevered for ages until one day on my own I tried him in a pelham (mullen, elastic curb) and found the results were excellent because somehow he didnt seem to be able to lean on it. I tried a couple of shows in the french link but they were awful, he got very heavy on the forehand which meant he was long and got under the jump resulting in some horrors!

So I went back to the pelham but got told this week that it wasnt good as I wasnt riding forwards enough it was too strong but I simply dont feel safe enough to ride him in anything less.

I am concentrating on riding him forwards (he used to lurch because I was lacking impulsion and as such used to catch me by surprise and I suppose I was catching him. Obviously I dont want to hurt my horse or put him off jumping so I was wondering if I should try another bit until I am confident /more skilled to jump him in a snaffle.

[Calsanjo]

Hi Ditz,

I have the same problem with my young horse. Whilst he's pretty balanced on the flat and light in front (in a snaffle) he sometimes loses his concentration when he's jumping and as you describe, ends up getting in too deep as he leans.

I now jump him in a pessoa bit. It's a happy mouth with a nugget, so it's not very harsh, but it encourages him to elevate his head carriage a little. It is similar to a dutch gag but with less poll pressure (a lot of horses get behind the contact in a dutch gag due to their indirect severity).

I don't think a pessoa is the type of bit you can borrow from a bit bank unfortunately. If you have trouble finding one.... they're usually for sale on ebay!

Let me know how you get on; of course all horses are different but I'd be interested to know if it works for your horse like it does for mine. :)

[Lucy J]

i had similar problems with ciara. i don't like resorting to stronger bits, although i schooled her in a cheltenham(balding) gag for a while which helped the evasions (especially when circling) she is now back in a snaffle and after a few weeks of schooling with lots of transitions she is fine.

perhaps instead of thinking about the bit you could try lots of transition and different placing poles and trotting poles to encourge the horse to learn to adjust stride.

i found the cheltenham gag very useful to lighten the forehand though, but you need to have soft hands for it otherwise it is quite severe. use 2 reins. i have seen a few professionals with this set up too though and it seems to work quite well in conjunction with plenty leg.

http://www.kellystackshop.com/gagsnaffles.html

you need the cheeks too. snaffle rein in normal place, gag rein on little ring at end of cheek pieces

http://www.equips.com/cgi-shl/loadpage.pl?user_id=705&file=bits_gag.htm

[DITZ]

I dont think i have particularly soft hands when jumping, I know I do when schooling but I seem to have the 'death grip' as soon as I get in a ring. I think I'll maybe just concentrate on riding forwaards with giving hands more for now because I suppose it doesnt matter what bit I use unless I can stop hanging on for grim life I'll always have a harsh contact.

Must admit I did find it easier last time by using roundings. I think I am in the habit of holding the reins stronger when there are 2 to worry about.

[eml]

HAve you tried split reins with the pelham. They enable you to choose much more than roundings wheather you want any curb action or just coming in later. Normally you have to have them made as they are usually used by kids in Working Hunter classes and only come in pony size.

[Horseyheaven]

what about a french link with just 3 rings.........same mouthpiece but extra for the leverage and stoping power??????

[helenc]

I think I would try using something with poll action. I would start with a hanging cheek snaffle & if that doesn't work I would then move onto a dutch gag/pessoa but try it on different rings to see what the differences were. They also come in lots of different mouthpieces so you can find the best one to suit your ned. If he's happy with the french link for schooling & hacking I would go for the hanging cheek french link to start off with.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by DITZ
I dont think i have particularly soft hands when jumping, I know I do when schooling but I seem to have the 'death grip' as soon as I get in a ring.

Then this is probably what you ought to be focusing on. If you lean on him, he'll lean on you and get on the forehand. This can happen with any bit. If you lean on him in a harsher bit, he'll probably develop a habit of getting behind the bit--it may feel like he's up in front and balanced, but he'll be just as hollow as if he were all strung out on the forehand.

[DITZ]

yep galadriel i think you're right. What do you think he meant by riding him forwards more? I was thinking it was a mental attitude thing when he first appraised me but now I think i realise its more than that. I asked him if he meant me to ride with looser reins or move my hands forwards but he said no to both just ride him forwards. (??) I just concentrated on 'letting him go' more and he said that was better but I am a bit confused as to whether I'd achieved what I was supposed to be doing. We had a much more fluent round but I though this was largley just to do with me taking them all at canter and thus avoiding the lurch.


Horseyheaven - is that a particularly strong bit? I dont think till my hands are sorted i ought to be going stronger. :o

eml - by split reins do you mean two reins? if so yes I normally ride with 2 reins but change to rounding this week as I had snapped a pair of plain and was riding with a plain on the curb and rubber on the top. I opted for rounding as i though that rubber probably wasnt helping me to 'give'. However I bought some new plain ones today so I could go back to them. In fairness I didnt notice too much difference when I used roundings.

[DavidH]

Hi Ditz
Galadriel is spot on with her advice.
People often think their horse is rushing/getting strong because they are excited by the prospect of jumping when the reverse is usually true.
Remember that a horses only available response to fear or pain is flight.
So the cycle usually goes -
Rider holds on to horses mouth over jump, horse feels pain so starts to rush.
Riders thinks horse is getting excited so uses a stronger bit, shock effect works for a short while but horse experiences more pain so rushes more.
riders thinks horse is getting even more confident/excited so uses stroger bit.........
And so it goes on.
The strength of the bit used should be directly proportional to the riders hand, only one of them can be strong.
The best advice I can give you is to use the softest bit you can then take your self and horse back to basics.
Practice over and over using grids to control the horse, not your hand. Accept that the horse will rush for a while. It will get better. Ascending grids are very useful for this as the stride between each fence effectively gets shorter which slows the horse down without any action by the rider. Once you are confident enough to ride the horse to a fence with impulsion (not speed) and allow it the freedom in the last couple of strides to do it's job, which is jump the fence then start jumping single fences again.
I know this might seem like a backward step but in the long run it will benefit both of you enormously.
Don't expect miracles over night, measure progress month by month. Not session by session.
It is extremely difficult to revert to a softer bit and goes against every instinct when a horse is carting you in to a fence but it is generally the best, long term solution.
Please don't take this as a criticism. I offer it as a long term solution to what is a common problem I get to deal with quite a lot.
Hard at the start but fantastic to see when it all starts to come together.
Good luck
David H

[DITZ]

No offence taken David, advice always gratefully received:D

I didnt want to go into a stronger bit but I find that the french link is just too light so I was thinking of something in the middle. I can school/warm up/practice in a french link but as soon as he gets in the ring the excitement takes over and he stops listening.

We only taight him to jump last year and he rushed the whole time. I was taught to let him go whatever the speed and I have no problem with that when we are talking about single fences in isolation but when we are doing a round he simply leans and goes too deep into them which means we overshoot/lose rythmn etc etc. Yes I would definitely say I would be guilty of pulling on the reins using this bit in an arena. I found he has sufficient respect for the pelham not to do this so the rounds are better. I was aware of 2 occasions during my session this week where I caught him in the mouth so I do know when I am doing it (I worried the week before because I didnt think I'd done it at all). I know twice is too much but out of 26 jumps its not heinious (is it?) and could be rectified quickly once I have my confidence up. Its a Catch 22 situation though because if I try and go back to a french link I'll destroy the confidence I've got.:o

I'm going to a show tomorrow just to do the clear round so I'll perhaps take both bits and give it a go.:eek:

[Harry Hobbes]

DavidH,

Does the attached graphic support your point?

Best regards,
Harry

[DavidH]

No, I don't think twice is too henious

Originally posted by DITZ
We only taight him to jump last year and he rushed the whole time.

I think you have the answer right here.

The biggest confidence problem is his.
If he were mine I would not be taking him out to shows and jumping him.
If he can't work over fences in a calm relax manner at home then he and you will real problems at shows.
I still believe (even more so now) that you need to go back to basics. Even if it takes you another year to get him working calmly at home it will be worth it.
He honestly won't get better by going to shows.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't take hime to shows, just don't jump him there.
Time spent in the early years building a proper foundation are never wasted.
Give yourselves time outside the stress of shows
How often do you jump him at home?
David H

[galadriel]

Originally posted by DavidH
If he can't work over fences in a calm relax manner at home then he and you will real problems at shows.

Among Ditz's problems is the fact that she has no jumps at home, so can not in fact school over jumps except at shows; this is why she's going to so many.

Ditz, I have a suggestion for work to do at home--and get really confident with before you go back to jumping again. I believe I've mentioned something like this before.

When you're riding at home, work on schooling the horse at canter. Go into a flatter, more strung out canter; sit up and get a more balanced one. This is important: do NOT ask him to slow down; ask him to balance. You should be able to get a balanced canter without losing too much speed.

Go back and forth between the strung out and the balanced canter. Get really comfortable with asking him to balance up.

This will help you very much in jumping, because you and he will have a good communication about what you're asking for--you don't want him to slow down, you want him to feel more controlled (and balanced). He feels that you're pulling him back, and leans more. You two really need to communicate on the transition to balanced canter. I doubt it will take fewer than 6 sessions for the two of you to feel decently polished together; make sure you work on this until it feels really good, really smooth, and really confident.

Then once you've accomplished that, put a pole down. Practice going around turns, getting your "approach" to the pole set, and asking him to come back to a balanced canter. Again this will take a few sessions, maybe quite a few, to feel "right."

Once you've got that, set up a "course" of poles. Practice going around the "course" asking him to balance up for each "jump." The two of you will need to be really, really good at this before really jumping a course will feel good to both of you.

[DITZ]

OK I get all of that but the instructor who has been teaching me finds theres nothing wrong with his canter/approach/jump etc etc, disagrees with me when I say he is rushing/going to fast and that the problem is in my head and that I just have to get used to the speed. All problems he tells me occur when we are going too slow - I assume he means that I feel like I am going too fast and pull him back instead of riding quietly and forwards.

When we came to the end of our training at home last year (before the ground got bad) I had him back in a french link and was OK with it and was working calmly. It seemed that the pelham had taught him to be calm and I was then able to go back to the snaffle. Like with everything he likes to evade so as I said earlier I sometimes use a flash or martingale too but take them off when he stops evading. He seems to creep back into the habit every now and then! Anyway, when I could no longer train at home I started taking him to local shows to practice but the first few times I took him he was just too heavy for me in the french link and so went back to a pelham. Although he did progress to going well in the collecting ring in the f/l but just losing it in the ring.

Current instructor says that because I am worried about him running away with me I am holding him back and for this reason alone the bit is too strong, he says that I just need to ride him forwards and all will be fine (which he said it was this week and in fact only problem was taking a poor line).

I'd be inclined to agree with you about the pain + rushing theory but (touch wood) I dont think we;ve got there yet as I am told he doesnt rush at all.

I really value you guys' opinions so please keep them coming I just dont know if I made myself clear on the rushing thing - he isnt actually rushing its just that I THINK he is.

[DITZ]

BTW Galadirel I remember some time ago you telling me that I was confusing speed with power and that is absolutely what I've been doing. When I watch a video back of us jumping he really is not going fast or rushing, he put the correct number of strides in everywhere and actually looks balanced and in rythmn (but only when I let him!!):mad:

[galadriel]

Originally posted by DITZ
All problems he tells me occur when we are going too slow - I assume he means that I feel like I am going too fast and pull him back instead of riding quietly and forwards.

The exercise above is designed to counter *this exactly*.

You get comfortable with him going fast, but balanced; he gets comfortable with you asking him to balance himself but not slow down. I think that right now you feel out of control; you can *fix* that by getting comfortable with all the flatwork above before you jump again. The goal of the exercise above is to help you feel in control while still going fast.

Feel the difference beween a fast unbalanced canter and a fast balanced canter--and get to where YOU can ask for it and HE can do it when you ask; you *need* to communicate with your horse on that point. At the moment you grip and try to get him to go slow, which won't actually give you the control you feel you're missing. And if you try to get him to slow and he does actually pull in response, then he's not balanced anymore. If he can't jump in balance he WILL go back to rushing from being unbalanced and frightened.

If you make sure to get comfortable riding over the poles (since you don't have jumps at home) just as you would a course, it can become close enough to second nature that you will not grip so badly when actually out jumping.

[eml]

No slit reins are one rein which divide about 30cms from the bit so it can be fastened to each of the pelhams rings. You can adjust the comparative lengths of each connector to change the effect of the bit from more snaffle to more curb

[DITZ]

cheer gal I understand what you mean now. He's not actually unbalanced but I feel like he is thats why I am fretting and hanging on so if I get used to what an unbalanced canter really feels like then I will feel happier about jumping froma balanced canter (hope that IS what you meant!). That is a great idea and I wil ldef try it. Decided not to do show today as far too windy to tow a trailer but have got jumping clinic with my usual instructor next Friday so I will practice my canter before then.

eml - I've never seen them before do you know where they're sold?

[galadriel]

Originally posted by DITZ
if I get used to what an unbalanced canter really feels like then I will feel happier about jumping froma balanced canter

Yes, I think so. If you can get used to the different feeling of a banced vs unbalanced canter, and he can get used to you asking for a balanced canter WITHOUT slowing down--I think that will help you very much :)

[eml]

I had mine made by a saddler...I don't think they are stock items any more. If you are interested I have drawing I can Email you (daughters assistance required...beyond my computer literacy:o )

[DITZ]

I think I'm going to stick with roundings for the time being and maybe even take the elastic curb off. I think I seem to be overly concerned with where his head is (previous schooling under instruction has had me practicing on holding the reins when he tries to raise his head above a certain point and releasing when it came down again) and I think I am transferring this into the ring - ie when he raises his head in the approach I think I am trying to hold him and the curb will be backing that up I suppose.