View Full Version : I need your help. I dont know what to do.
21st Mar 2004, 05:54 PM
I'm having doubts about carrying on with Charlie's treatement.
As a lot of you know, Charlie has fractured the left wing of his off hind pedal bone, a large bone in the hoof. He has been on box rest about 10 weeks so far, and is meant to remain on box rest for another 4/5 months, and then spending the rest of a year in a small enclosed area in a field which will probably turn to dust and drive him mad at the site of grass around him.
This morning I went down the yard to do him. He did what he susally does, which is pace the length of his rope and pawing the floor and side of the stable. I left and went back earlier to skep him out and feed and hay him. I took him out the stable and tied him to the stable on the left of mione where I tie him half the time. I was skepping out and he was kicking the stable a lot, so I went out to move him. I reached round to pull the quick release, and he reared! He went right up, not even a half rear, a proper rear, and struck out with his front legs, so I jumped back. He has a broken bone in his hoof and he is rearing on it!
So I moved him to the other side of my stable where I tie him so I can see him whuile I mix his feed or do his water. So I have my back to him and am doing his feeds. I suddenly hear this squeal and thump, and wehirl around to see Charlie hopping, i.e, bouncing on his front feet. He stopped, so i turned and continued with mixing the feed, only to hear another massive bang. I turned round again (keep in mind Charlie is tied up) to see him, all 4 feet off the floor, bucking and leaping. I dropped the feed and sprinted over. He stopped as I got near, pawing the ground. I untied him and put hiom in his stable, and he hopped in.
He has to endure another 4/5 months of this and I don't think he can. He broke his pedal bone the first time by carrying on like that on semi-hard ground. Now he is doing it on concrete, and I'm worried he's going to break another one. His chances of making a full recovery at the moment is 70%. If he breaks another bone, he wqont recover at all and will have to be put to sleep. If he keeps carryiong on, he is going to mkae the injury worse, so in the same boat.
He isn't liking this, is itr fair to make him go through another 5months of this? And what can I do to calm him down? I currently feed him Kalmer and rescue remedy. I feed him chaff and Invalid Mix and garlic, and thats it. I'd rather put him to sleep then make him endure another 5 months of hell for him. I just want him to be happy. I dont know what to do!:(
21st Mar 2004, 06:09 PM
I am soooo sorry, i really wouldnt know what to do if i was in your situation too!
What i would think is what do you want to do when charlie is back to full health?
and will charlie be able to do that as his got this injury now.
Or would he be best going somewhere to rest all his life? like keeping a horse company?
I really dont know what to say and i know this is soo heart breaking too what to decide.
Whatever happens it will be for the best
((((((((Hugs go out for ya))))))))))))
Lee n Penny
21st Mar 2004, 06:15 PM
Are you feeding any painkillers? If you are, then you may want to stop. Painkillers can mask the pain and make the horse feel better than he really is; if he understands what pain he is in, he may be a little less antsy about wanting to get out & do things.
It doesn't always help...our cocker spaniel had surgery for a torn muscle; five layers of stitches. I had to keep him on tranquilizers for a week, and if it had been longer than a week, I don't know what I would have done.
Is he getting *any* thing that you could cut out? Can you (have you) cut him off grain entirely, feed only what hay he absolutely needs, etc? (I don't recognize the various names of what you are feeding, so I can't tell.)
I can see that this is making you crazy; it would be to me too. Think about what he was like before he injured himself...is it worth all this to get him back to that? Will his life after recovery be worth the stress of the recovery itself? I have to think that in most cases the answer would be yes, but I'm not there--it's you who has ALL of the facts and details, so you're the only one who can make a real judgement.
21st Mar 2004, 06:23 PM
Hi shaka, I really feel for you. I thought about this problem a lot last year and concluded that if I was in this situation with my horse, I would have him put down. All the thinking on my part came about because a friend's competition horse tore his suspensory ligament and was prescribed 6 months box rest etc.
Like Charlie, he didn't take well to it. He was increasingly frustrated and throwing himself about. I understood that my friend loved him and only wanted the best for him, but it seemed cruel to me to keep a horse boxed and frustrated for so long, when its impossible for them to understand their situation or when its going to end. At about the point that you are at, the vet provided sedatives for her horse, to take the edge of the frustration and he remained on them until he could go out. It was a difficult time, the 'quiet' turn out was also difficult because, after the sedatives wore off, he didn't want it to be 'quiet' and charged about. There was nothing she could do to prevent that of course, so she just hoped for the best.
Its a year now since his injury. He's been slowly coming back into work over the past few months and is strong and happy. Seeing him now, I'm not so sure any longer that I'd have mine put down in that situation. I just don't know. I guess I'd have to be in the situation to really know. I can't advise you what to do, its a very personal decision, but don't feel bad about considering having him put down. I think in these circumstances, it can be a perfectly reasonable and kind option.
Maybe you should discuss it at length with your vet, including the pros and cons of sedation.
Keep posting to let us know how its going, so that we can give you support whatever you decide.
21st Mar 2004, 06:24 PM
Shaka you must feel awful not knowing what to do for him! Poor Charlie!!
I agree with galadriel though about reducing or stopping pain killers. When my first pony ribbed his legs open and chopped half his foot off it was pretty grim and made him hopping lame. We didn't know whether he'd even make it because of the type of damage it was. But once sewn up and foot polticed and on some major pain killers he was bouncing off the walls. He split stitchs every day and his foot would bleed so much I thought he would bleed to death! It got the point where he had no painkillers because as cruel as it sounds he had to feel really bad or he was going to kill himself. He would of done him self hurrendous damaging and would of had to of been put to sleep. Also would need not be able to come off hard food completley and just have ad-lib hay? Or maybe a bit of basic chaff, something like hi-fi lite, only like a handful with a chopped apple or carrott just so he still thinks he's getting meals.
Will he be able to return to full work in the end?
Only you truely know Charlie and what is best for him. Everybody knows all your doing is putting his feelings first so what ever decision you make will be for the best!
21st Mar 2004, 06:25 PM
A friend of mine used to put a television in the stable block to keep her horses company. Of course, you may not be able to do this safely. My friend had a small barn type block, with 4 stables under the one roof, so a small TV could be put safely inside without actually being in the stables. Used to work for her though. Perhaps a radio put somewhere up high would serve the same purpose, and give your poor horse something to listen to and take his mind off things a bit.
21st Mar 2004, 06:32 PM
paynel, ideally, I'd like him jumping to the level he weas at, which is what I've been told will definitely happen if he fully recovers. I dont think it would come to him having to rest, as he is young, so he is more likely to recover. I dont think he'd be happy in a field all day either, he does like to work.
galadriel, I'm not feeding him any painkillers or sedatives at all. Chaff is just bulk really, to make the horse think he's eating something, but it has nothing in it. Invalid Mix is designed for horses on long preiods of box rest. It has no energy, just the appropriate vitamins eytc needed, but I could look at cutting that out. With regards to is it worth it, that's what I'm worried about. Before he was injured he was doing exceptionally well with his jumping, and we were going to affiliate him this year. The vets say he'll be able to do that when he comes back, but I really dont know if its worth his while, which is the problem! I'm worried he will just end up breaking another pedal bone, then he wont recover at all.
Stella, I'm in the same muddle as you were, is it cruel to do this to him? I will tal;k it over with my vet, and maybe get an xray for all the rest of his feet done. Thanks for your story, its very interesting and I will definitely keep it in mind!
I've already decided, if an xray showed another fracture in another foot from this, that we end it there.
21st Mar 2004, 06:34 PM
Hi, I'm sorry to hear of your problem. It must be so frustrating.
Is there any way in which you can leave your horse's loose box open and just give him a bit more space? Obviously, I don't know the layout of your yard, but our loose boxes are all within a barn with a channel down the middle for us to take the horses in and out, so you could really close the main doors at the front and let him have a wander. That way he can't really exercise, but he can be a bit nosey and wander about, maybe leave some playthings around for him?
Alternatively, if he really is going toxic, is there a very small paddock or an empty field you could partition off and just let him go in there for an hour or a few hours a day, or maybe even once every two days to start with, just to interrupt the repetitiveness of it all. You could also invest in a stable mirror for company, or maybe ask permission to bring your friends' horses in for an hour at a time, just to give him some company, so long as they are willing. Is there an equine swimming pool near you? That would give him a chance to burn off some energy without putting any weight on his foot. Obviously, you would have to ask your vet about all of this, as I wouldn't want your horse to come to any harm, bearing in mind that even if he were allowed to swim you would have to travel him there: ie, stress on the foot. Plus, I don't know your budget or facilities, so some of these may not even be feasible.
Some people say that classical music keeps horses calm. My friend used to put the local radio station on for company when her horse was on box rest, and it worked a treat. It wasn't classical though! Again, I don't know how feasible this is, but what about a companion animal? It doesn't have to be big, we have had geese, goats and sheep at out farm (although the goat was a bit of a monster, so be careful!).
Good luck whatever you decide. My thoughts are with you. :)
21st Mar 2004, 06:37 PM
tor&Warrior, I've thought about ad-lib hay, but unfortunately I cant afford it, nor can I provide it. He currently gets 3 sections in the day and 2 at night. He is getting HiFi Lite with Invalid Mix. I tried plain HiFi Lite, but he didnt want to eat it, not even with carrots or apples. Yes he will return to full work at the end providinghe doesnt break another bone, or agravate this one.
Doris, unfortuanetly there is no where for me to do this, but I did consider a radio. I'm thinking of getting a window cut in the back of his stable overlooking the fields. What do you all think?
21st Mar 2004, 06:40 PM
Aphrodite, back when they thought it wazs just a sprain or infection, I turned him out in the school every other day, whioch he loved! He woul dturn and jump across the school of his own free will! Unfortunaetly, he is know not allowed to move at all, he is supposed to stay in his box 24/7 apart from mucking out. :( There is a field behind his stable, and Im looking at getting a window cut (not sure if this would just make it worse) so he can look out and have companionship of the horses in the field. Other then that, unfortunately there is no way for him to have a companion.
21st Mar 2004, 06:40 PM
A stable mirror maybe (+ sedatives)
21st Mar 2004, 06:46 PM
A mirror! Thats excellent!! It's gonna have to be one of those shiny foil type ones cos he'll kick a real one to death! Thats fantastic thanks!
Doesnt help with the energy though!
21st Mar 2004, 06:47 PM
I am so so sorry to hear of your sad situation. It is not looking good for Charlie, or your stress levels.... I have to agree with galadriel, painkillers can hide the pain!! Maybe cutting down the painkillers.... Give your vet a phone, tell him how you feel and how charlie is not doing to well. Also try your farrier, he may be able to do something. Can you walk Charlie out in hand for short walks, even if it is just for 5 mins. Your farrier might have something you could put on his feet to cushion him as he walks. Also could you not section off a part of a field with electric fencing for him, even if its 14x14, a large stable size. he won't be able to do to much damage there.. You could move the square every day when he eats the grass down. It would get him out of his box before it drives him even more mad, or hurt himself even more. You also have to ask yourself is he going to make a full recovery, will all this pain and stress be worth it in the end, or is his life always going to be like this, how did it happen in the beginning... and if he recovers what are the chances of it happening again..
21st Mar 2004, 06:53 PM
If he's not on any painkillers he must be feeling better if he is rearing ect. on it!!
Hunni!! remember Charlie is a cutie you are a star do what you can, rest if you need it! *made that up!*
Hugs hugs and many more!!
Lucy and Fern!
P.S If you ever want her you can have ferny!!
21st Mar 2004, 06:58 PM
Trabe, I dont feed any painkillers at all. He isnt allowed out at all either, as this will just cause it to get worse. Imagine breaking your foot and then walking on it, you can't. He has heel raisers in his shoes at the moment, and the chances of him breaking it again aren't to great providing he stops carrying on at the moment! He will have to have heel raisers the rest of his life.
Lucy, thanks lol. lol! you keep ferny ya silly thing!
21st Mar 2004, 07:05 PM
No no amy! Wait ermm 4 or 5 years and you can have her (sis will be at uni!) but she'll be super and all trained up and expensive!!
Lucy and Fern
21st Mar 2004, 07:15 PM
Lol! Thanks Lucy, but in 4 or 5 years I willl be living in Portugal and showjumping at international level lol!
21st Mar 2004, 07:19 PM
Damn it!! You have to come up here one day and SJ Fern for me!! (i'm sure she would!!) Aww i wish!! You don't get your self really down about it ok??
Lucy and Fern!
21st Mar 2004, 07:24 PM
I wont get myself down about it. Im happy if it works out, and if it doesnt, im happy he's not suffereing anymore
21st Mar 2004, 07:27 PM
Your gonna have to take me up on that some day!! Good! i'm the opposite of you arn't i!! i'd think i've made her life hell!! but in truth you spend so much time with them you just feel in love!! ( arrrhhhhh Fern!!) something non horsey people will ever really experiance!!
Lucy and Fern!
21st Mar 2004, 07:33 PM
* tying a horse up outside for them to groom each other might help a bit.
* Hiding carrots and stuff in his haynet and bedding
* could you change his stable for one where there is lots going on about, like people passing by and stuff or just popping him in this in the day time.
* Apparently feeding more than one type of forage helps with the grazing thing.
* have you tried tying turnips up to the ceiling on ropes
not sure how practical these things are, but might be worth a try.
21st Mar 2004, 08:32 PM
lizness, thanks very much for that! Some I cant do, and some ive tried, but I really like the carrot and forage idea!
I wish I could change his stable, hmmm, might mention it to YO acctually...
21st Mar 2004, 08:44 PM
I can only think of those treat ball things.
21st Mar 2004, 08:59 PM
What a worry for you.
Have you tried homeopathy? they might be able to give you something for him to bring his stress levels down and keep him on an even keel.
Is the yard attended during the day, things like a radio on for a bit, closing the top door and opening the bottom for a while, opening up both and putting a chain across. lots of little feeds of hay, or small holed haynet. hang a swede upon a bit of string. Don't take him out of the stable if he's going to go ape, he probably thinks its time for turnout and nothing happens.
Alternatively turn him out in a small pasture and you may find that he will settle and be calm and not do any further damage. L
21st Mar 2004, 09:03 PM
Idea...He's supposed to keep from moving around to keep from impact concussion on that broken bone, right? What if you and your farrier got together and designed some kind of squishy concussion-absorbing pad in an Old Mac's or Easyboot? You could put the boot on (over whatever shoe he's got on, if any) and walk him out very briefly, or let him out in a restricted area, for a short time.
It might work. Obviously you'd need to ask your vet & farrier for input and assistance, but it really does sound like it might be something worth looking into.
21st Mar 2004, 09:07 PM
If you can get him out could you use electric fencing to make a small bit of space for him?
You really are stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment - I hope you can sort something out - best of luck
21st Mar 2004, 09:09 PM
Laetita, unfortunately, there is nowhere we can put a radio. Plus my YO would never do it! I might try hemoepathy, Ive been using Bach but it doesnt seem to be working! I've tried the chain before, he ended up jumping it! Occasionally I do it on weekends, but I have to sit there and watch him, as he has tried several things! Unfortunately, he has to come out the stable for me to muck him out, as the stable is to small for two of us and a wheelbarrow in there. I cant put him in a field either as he isnt allowed to move. I will look at the homeopathy though!
galadriel, thanks, I willl talk to my farrier! It sounds great to me!
22nd Mar 2004, 07:12 AM
i used a battery operated tiny radio when my horse was on box rest, i hung it up in his stab;e, i had to change the batteries every day though. i hung carrots and a swede up from the roof on baling twine.
i always used a thick shavings bed too or even better, a really thick bed of woodchips.
other than that perhaps you could speak with the vet / farrier and reassess?
22nd Mar 2004, 08:28 AM
You're in a difficult situation and i don't envy you in the slightest.
You say you can't put him out - is this because you can't make a small area for him or because he's not supposed to move?? If its the latter, i'd chance putting him out in a small area like Trabe65 suggested, he's not going to do anymore damage there than he could in his stable or when tied up and i'm sure he'd be happier outside for a few hours. Could you "borrow" an old pony to sit with him (make another little enclosure next to your horses).
I've had a couple of horses that have been injured and needed box rest, one with a fratured pedal bone. I have never kept them in more than a few days as they climb the walls and usually cause more damage to themselves. I make small paddocks and scatter carrots and a couple of turnips on the ground, which keeps them occupied for a while, but also stops them from racing round as they're more interested in the food. A bucket smeared with treacle is a good treat too as they take ages to lick it all off.
If your only options are to rest him and have him demented or put his to sleep, i'd try turning him out for a couple of hours and see if it helps his mental state.
Hope Charlie makes a full recovery and lives happily for many many years.
22nd Mar 2004, 12:23 PM
shaka, you could ask my dad if he could cut a window in the back of the stable. he's quite busy with our lorry at the mo but he might do it. you can have my old feed ball as well if you want it, i don't use it. has he got a salt lick/likit? how about putting his hay inside 2 horsehage nets? or you could float apples in his water buckets. YO may not mind radio if u explain why.
22nd Mar 2004, 12:28 PM
I wouold cut out the mix entirely. It may be designed for horses on rest but it will still have energy in it. You say he won't eat Hifi alone so you may as well cut that out too. Instead I would give a Pasture Plus biscuit or two, they have vits and mins in and are supposed to be good for horses/ponies that dont need hard feed but obviously need vits etc.
Is there another stable you could put him in whilst you muck out? The change of sights and smells for a while may stimulate him mentally and he wont be tied up wishing he was outside.
Having worked at Liphook and seen how they cope with the box rest horses, they feed 1-2 sections of hay 4 times a day. Whilst this isnt ad lib, its trickle feeding so better for the digestion and relieving boredom. Could you do this? Or even use small holed haynets or some other way to slow him down with his hay?
22nd Mar 2004, 12:54 PM
You poor thing!
I would go onto the robinsons website they have masses of thing for horses to do in the stable could give you some ideas of what you could get or make him the mirror nd window would be a fantastic idea. Although it's hard for you both you say he's young so I really would persevere. Is there any way that someone could be with you when he's out of the stable because it seems like he waits for your back to be turned before he does it so perhaps he wouldn't if someone was watching him the whole time.
Good luck :)
22nd Mar 2004, 01:17 PM
I know exactly how you feel, i got my new horse last year and the first day at his new yard he went out in the field and slipped a shoe, the clench went into his foot puncturing his sole, he then had to be stabled (due to the ground being to wet and muddy) for over a month with constant poultices. Anyway he is as mad as a hatter, he hates being in a stable, he puts up with it over night but that is as much as he will tolerate, so he weaves and paces round and round all the time, it was horrible to watch but i just couldnt let him out, he would sweat up every day, at the time i was pulling my hair out but we got through it with alot of persiverance and patience on my part. Some of the things that helped me, i used to put a hole through a swede and tie it from the roof of his stable, also i started tieing him up in the stable and doing everything i had to do in the stable with him in it, because when i put him on the yard he thought he was going out and used to turn himself inside out, i also got him some herbal calming mix to put in his feed, the other thing i did was put a small farm pony in the box next to him so he wasnt on his own in the yard. I think athletic horses find it harder to relax.
Anyway, hang in there it may seem hopeless but you will get there and it will be worth it to see him back out in the field and back in work.
Oh yeah and i have to say that at the end of the month he had calmed down a lot and seemed to have got used to it not 100% but 70% , and picked up a few manners as well regarding his stable nature.
22nd Mar 2004, 02:28 PM
Oh Shaka - I wish there was something constructive I could add.
If you want to get a mirror I think you can find steel ones - specially designed to be kick proof (I know I've seen an ad in the last month or so, but I can't find it).
You obviously care too much to make the wrong decision - which makes deciding what is right so much harder :( .
Thinking of you and Charlie.
22nd Mar 2004, 05:23 PM
hello i am sorry to read of your situation with your horse .
there is a few ideas that may help ,stop the course mix and replace it with high fibre cubes ,the mix is not doing him any favours and may be bubbling up abit along with the staying in .
most ponies in light work can work on high fibre diet which is more natural for him and would not offer so much energy as fibre is slow realeasing energy .
put a horse mirror in his box and make things for him to play with that would hold nuts and *** bits for him to retreive .a small holed hay net he would have to work harder for the hay and it would last longer .massage and stretching exersizes will help boredom and keep his circulation fresher.
feed little and often through out the day this helps to break the day up for him. if you feed high fibre diet he will not be so full of energy and may be bubbling over .
put some nuts in a bucket with round bolders in so that he has to work around the boulders to get the nuts this can keep him busy for a while if not nut carrots swede apple .
ponies are food lovers but be cause he is standing in you ned to use food that is not full of energy such as molased chaff or cereal
all the above will help to keep him quieter and with less energy to need to burn off .
i hope it helps ,best wishes .
22nd Mar 2004, 05:42 PM
Ack he was horrible today :( I made the mistake of telling some people at my yard my worries, BIG MISTAKE. The child who looks after him when I'm away started on at me saying how I was doing everything wrong, and how he was fine with ehr and everything. She was saying oh yeah, I mucked out in his stable and he was fine and everything. I was just like, yeah, thanks for telling me how to look after MY pony! Then went and saw Charlie and had a chat and a little cry with him lol (shhhhhhhhhh) Anyway, I tried mucking him out in the stable, first loose, but he shadowed me and was striking out, so I tied him up, and he started kicking the fdoor eventually, then bucked, narrowly missing me, then reared. I was scared he'd get caught on the door, so went round, drew the bolt back, holding the rope so he wouldnt run forward, but he bolted out into the yard at a gallop. He was still tied up though, so got to the end of the rope and snapped round. he stood fine for a while, then someone brought three ponies in and tied them up, and he suddenly started bucking again. When I made his feeds and did his water etc, I shut his top door so he couldnt see me or anything else. There was no noise, but I hate doing that.
Lucy J, Im going to see if I can finds a radio, thanks! He has a thick bed, but the stable is quite small so mixes everything round!
Alibi, unfortunately, he's not allowed to move, Id like to put him in a small enclosed area, the only problem is getting him to the field, as its to far a walk. There is also no way to make a small area. Does treacle give them energy? Otherwise Ill try that! Thanks!
Rosanna, thanks, YO said she would talk to him when he's not busy, so we can hang on lol. I give him hay in a horsehage net, and as for the apples, I tried that and he wasnt quite sure what to do with it! He's a bit thick! He has a likit, but its proving very expensive to keep topped up, as he finishes iot in 5 minutes, so I change it only every week or so. Thanks!
tasha, I spoke to my YO, who said I can use the stable next door for mucking out. Unfortunately, I cant feed him 4 times a day when Im at school, but I can do it this weekend, I'm photographing at my yard this Saturday, so can make excapes between lessons lol. I will do that with his feed thanks! Do you know where I can get Pasture Plus?
shandy, thanks for your words of support, unfortuanetly, no one has the time to do with me down there!
berties girl, my YO says he should settle, he just takes longer then usual! I'm glad your horse is ok now, I dont think he thinks hes going to the field, he hasn'yt seen it in about 12 weeks now, as he had an infection before.
Tangle, thank you for your kind words, I've been trawling the ads in horse magazines for those kick proof mirrors!
welshcobl;ady, thanks for your advice! I will order fibre cubes ASAP. I was doing stretching as of a few weeks a go, then he struck out and reared, so I gave up, as I decided I valued my life! Unfortunatekly, the stable is to small for a ball, and the YO gets annoyed with the banging against the door!
What does anyone think about having an empty milk bottle hanging from his roof?
22nd Mar 2004, 06:35 PM
Good idea! But to give himn something to work for could you cover the top and put a small whole in it? then fill it with pony nuts or something?? So he works for his feed through the day??
Lucy and Fern!
Chat with me hunni!!
22nd Mar 2004, 06:47 PM
OK Lucy Ill try that to! Thanks!
Im in chat, but your not!
23rd Mar 2004, 05:59 PM
How about hanging some nice big, round swedes or turnips up on string, so that he can amuse himself by trying to bite lumps off them.
Or, how about hiding bits of carrot, apple, swede, turnip and parsnit about his stable, in his bedding etc. so that he can hunt for them.
If I think of anymore, I'll post them.
23rd Mar 2004, 07:37 PM
I hung up a bottle today from the roof, but I'd like to make it a bit more interesting, so was wondering what you thought of putting treats, or covering it on mint or something?
I will try hanging another swede upo tomorrow, was very interesting trying to hang the bottle up today!
23rd Mar 2004, 07:41 PM
Try this . . . it's very good
How To Make Hanging Herbs for Horses (http://www.mybackyard.com/current/128r3p1.htm)
23rd Mar 2004, 08:08 PM
Sounds like he was a little sod today - if only he could understand that he's being kept in for his own good.
As for the treacle, just put a light smear in a feed bucket or on a turnip which is on a rope (i particularly like this one as they lick like mad but don't get a lot of treacle).
How about hanging a football up in a haynet, or fill a haylage net with a mixture of empty plastic bottles and turnips.
Make some huge icecubes using old icecream tubs and stick some apple a carrot slices in them.
And that's it can't think of any other ideas at the minute!
23rd Mar 2004, 08:19 PM
Hi, for whats it worth Id cut out the mix completely, just feed dengi and lots of carrots, swede, parsnips etc...as for mucking out in the stable-if hes striking out then its only a matter of time before you get kicked-could you not move him into another stable so that hes not tied up and frustrated by the others coming and going whilst you muck out??? then at least he would be safe and you would not risk him getting free and doing more damage...try alsoo feeding wendals herbs-I use special calmer as my horse is spooky and bad to hack out in the winter as hes young and they have worked well-hes much more laid back on a hack and they dont cost the earth...just a thought...I think the problem is that although there is no room for sentiment with something as big as a horse (not the indoor pet are they!) you have to keep going as youve tried for so long...as for the others on the yard-ignore them-hes your horse and only you know how hard this is and you do what is best for him ...good luck;)
23rd Mar 2004, 08:23 PM
The mix amy uses is actually designed for horses on box rest, replacing the vitamins and minerals normally recieved from the grass but not giving any extra 'fizz' normally associated with coarse mixes - see Balanced' Horse Feeds - Invalid Diet (http://www.balancedhorsefeeds.co.uk/) to find out more
23rd Mar 2004, 08:37 PM
hi shaka, theres another forum I go to so I posted your question there about charlie and heres what few people replied, sorry if they say things you already answered here, they didnt read the afterward replies:
A very high-energy TB mare in my coach's barn had a broken bone that meant she had 9 months of stall rest. It was hard on her, but she got through it! I'll list some of the things that helped her out, and maybe they will work on Charlie, too.
Is Charlie allowed to be hand-walked? Lots of gentle handwalking (with a chain over the nose if necessary - you MUST keep him at a walk and quiet in order to prevent further injury), and letting him graze will relieve a lot of the boredom and tension. It's remarkable what an hour or so of quietly grazing on the end of a leadrope will do.
Playballs in the stall (like a Jolly Ball) can also help a lot with boredom.
I would also suggest to never tie him up. When his stall is being cleaned, put him in another horse's stall. If you must, ask someone if he can stand in their horse's stall, with the resident horse tied up outside! Being tied can make even a calm horse bored, and with his broken bone it is dangerous to have him tied on concrete.
Especially do not tie him within sight of food being prepared as described, since he will be able to see and hear the food, and will get anxious to be fed. That will lead to pawing, jumping around, etc.
I hope that helps! It is difficult to go through rehab for severe injuries like this, but it is definitely possible. Tell your friend good luck!
I agree w/ bunnyinthehouse! Also she can get an old coke bottle, put water and glitter in it. So. when the horse's push it all the glitter floats around. Also u can get a canister poke holes in it and put treats in it. So, the horse can push the canister and treats fall out.
P.s This doesn't have ne thing to do w/ the problem. But ** friend said she been giving him rescue remedies. Yall know how to use remedies! Thats so cool. I've been trying to find out how. I've been really interested in them after reading about them. If yall do know some and how to use them will u please email me at: email@example.com
Good luck. I really hope she doesn't put him down.
Are you feeding him to hot? In other words are you feeding him alfalfa while he is in his stall or grain? You may be giving him more energy than he can use in a stall.
I would suggest you look at Frank Bells website
Contact him to ask what you should do. He seems to be a very caring person who would be glad to help or at least send you an email back with suggestions.
If the bone just needs time, then give it time.
hope this helps~:)
23rd Mar 2004, 08:59 PM
Hey shaka, what a great bunch here at New Rider, some very helpful ideas here, I really really hope for you and Charlies sake that they help. I actually had a little tear in my eye reading your initial post there. It is so hard, I am going through a similar problem with Cheeky, hoping that all treatments will help and whether they can really establish a fullfilling quality of life afterwards, and still be happy. I really hope Charlie pulls through! Cheeky went out for his first ride since his operation today and was ok, I am having to keep a close eye on his eye, I am extremely paranoid now!
Anyway, all I can offer is my sympathies and that with a great owner like you looking after Charlie that stuff works out for the best, bored horse or not!:)
23rd Mar 2004, 09:20 PM
Thanks all for your support and replies!
Ladyrose, thanks for that link, I will find a chain and loko into it! But I can just see him eating the soil...:o
Alibi, will treacle wind him up do you think? I like the idea of smearing it on, and I LOVE the football idea! I will definitely try that!
AJB, as said, the mix is specially designed. I have moved him to another stable when I muck out, much to the relief of my YO! Thanks very very much for your kind words.
ladyrose, thanks for posting the link! Hmmm, interesting, now I know what I am feeding my horse!
Equisgirl, Awww thank you so muich for posting that! It seems a very friendly place! I've looked at the suggestions, some I will use, but some I cant, as he cant be handwalked, tell everyone thanks very very much!
I think theres been a misunderstanding soz! He can't see me making the feed. He can see me cleaning the buckets out if I stand right by the taps, but I dont tend to, and have my back to him if I do, but feed is mixed where I can see him but he cant see me.
I loved the glitter idea!
Cochise, they certainly are a fantastic bunch! Thanks for your comments, Im very glad Cheeky is getting better! I was thinking of him the other day, wondering about how he was!
24th Mar 2004, 09:59 AM
(((hugs for you Amy)))
(((hugs too for Charlie)))
I'm so sorry you're going through this Amy hunni, it's really awful. Poor Charlie. Please give him a hug from Milly and I.
Can I ask a really dumb question??? What is a swede?? I've seen heaps of people post about them in this thread, and no one in my family has any idea what they are! (maybe it's called something else in Australia?) lol I thought a Swede was someone from Sweden? :confused: :confused: :confused:
*thinking of you lots, Amy* hang in there hunni
24th Mar 2004, 10:00 AM
It's a bit like a turnip
24th Mar 2004, 10:47 AM
For amusing Charlie a little more in his stable, try some of these ideas -
- cut up a couple of carrots, and squeeze them between the haynet rope bit and they hay - you have to make the haynet very tight and full of hay, so maybe a smaller haynet would be more useful.
- get a plastic drinks bottle, and cut small holes in the side, then covering the sharp edges safely with black tape (or something similar), fill them with pony nuts, carrots, apples, swede, carrot ends, dried nettles, anything that he likes! this might be only possible when someone is close by, but it depends if he takes to destroying the bottle!
- hanging carrots and swedes in stables can amuse horses for hours, as can a mirror.
I do have a few more ideas, but I will put them on here when I get home!!
In the end though, just think for whats best for him :)
Ax ~ Emx
24th Mar 2004, 11:15 AM
Sorry to hear about how things are going. Tango broke the outside wind off her nf pedal bone 3 yrs ago (just after the crack in that bone on the inside had healed) and she had 8 months box rest (as she also damaged the cartilage in her stifle at the same time...).
You are right not to think about turning him out at all, even for a short period. Although his remedial shoeing will be helping and is acting as a 'plaster cast' on his foot, if he is turned out it is likely that he will be a bit wilder (wilder tahn when in) and will stress his foot. There is a limit to how much a metal shoe will hold a foot! Sadly box rest with a broken pedal bone means exactly that - no leaving the stable if possible!
When we had Tangers in we hid a battery operated radio in her stable- tuned into Radio 4 on longwave so there was no need for an aerial. she loved it and used to stand and watch it! We hid apples and carrots round her stable - in her water bucket, on any 'shleves' in the bed, etc, etc. We were able to muck out with her in the stable as it was a big stable, but that could get a bit 'exciting'.
I made sure I spent a lot of time with her each day - difficult as we moved house the day she had her operation on her stifle and I work full time. Spending 30mins grooming her in the morning and evening was clearly appreciated by her.
We also gave her adlib hay/haylage to keep her busy. If cost is an issue, why not see if there is some nice lookign straw that you can feed him? An eating horse is an occupied horse!
Anyway, Charlie will not (even with your best efforts) be on best behaviour when on box rest - he is a horse, they aren't meant to live 24/7 in stables so you have to be prepared fro some 'willful' behaviour, but it sounds like he has a slight excess. Can you try to teach him any tricks while he is having a calm moment so taht then you can use the trick to calm him? We taught Tango taht sayign 'foot foot' means pick her feet up and getting her playing that game with her feet would keep her mind occupied while the other person mucked out.
basically you have to keep the horse occupied as much as possible - by using their mouth (grub!), ears (radio) sense of touch (grooming), brain (foot game). You can't really fill their eyes with new things though as they have a limited view.
Good luck. it is worth persevering. I would never now know that Tango had broken her pedal bone.
24th Mar 2004, 11:33 AM
That Invalid Mix doesn't look great to me having followed the link. It has 9.8Mj/kg of digestable energy which is average and 12% protein which is high.
Leisure Mix (Dodson and Horell) is 9.5 DE and 9% protein. I'd be feeding this, literally as a handful in each feed.
I pick my feeds by looking at the nutrient analysis rather than their names and descriptions-you'd be surprised as to what goes in what dispite their names.
24th Mar 2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Sarah
why not see if there is some nice lookign straw that you can feed him?
The usual reason given for not feeding straw is that it can give them impactive colic -
Wheat or oat straw, a highly non-digestible fibre source, has been implicated as causing impaction colic in horses.
Impactive Colic - This occurs when the intestines develop a blockage of food material. Usually found when a horse suddenly starts eating its bedding (straw or poor quality hay)
Since horses might eat straw bedding, impaction colic can be a concern
24th Mar 2004, 01:12 PM
I thought that theroy had now been shown to be incorrect in that most impaction colics are due to tapeworm problems. You can alway mix the straw with hay to lighten the load on the guts.
24th Mar 2004, 01:36 PM
Have to agree with Tasha re the invaild mix. Followed the link and it does not look great at all. I would change it to spillers high fibre cubes, if he is not working he does not need concentrates/mixes. He should be on a high fibre diet only.
You can mix good straw (introduce it slowly) safely with hay, it will fill his net out and save money. Some times they may eat round it if they dont like it but that is still time consuming so its still giving a distraction.
Dont know where abouts you are or what the surounding area is like but i used to go with a friend picking long grass/thistles and stinging nettles etc from field and putting it in her eldery geldings hay net or on the floor for him to make a change. We did look rahter odd but we would walk out with a hay net each, natter away picking stinging nettles (which gardening gloves on!) and enjoying being in the fresh air! We know he appricated it :D
24th Mar 2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Alex
Can I ask a really dumb question??? What is a swede?? I've seen heaps of people post about them in this thread, and no one in my family has any idea what they are! (maybe it's called something else in Australia?) lol I thought a Swede was someone from Sweden? :confused: :confused: :confused:
lol Alex - as ladyrose says, it's a bit like a turnip, but I'm not sure if you have those either :p!. They're both root vegetables, grown in cold wet horrid countries and are generally eaten by humans when cooked (roasted, stewed, boiled or mashed). I think they're also related to mangle wurzles. I think they were fed to cattle - just don't ask me what they look like :D!
Amy - I found you a couple of places to look for mirrors.
The ones I think I read about are called Lincoln stable mirrors, and you can buy them here (http://www.touchexeter.com/webpro/live/jacksonarenas/prodshow.cfm) . They aren't cheap (pretty well £100), but they do claim to be the right size, shape and thickness for horses.
I also found these (http://www.csmirrors.co.uk/index.php?pageID=stainlesssteel) , which are also stainless steel and are cheaper - I don't know if they'd be thick enough, though, or whether they're the right size (or how critical the size really is).
From memory, the article I read suggested that the positioning of the mirror was quite important (not next to the door, or where you feed ;)), which all seemed fairly logical once I thought about it. The reservation they had that I wouldn't have got was based on the character of the horse - if Charlie's a fairly dominant guy in the field he might just try to fight his reflection :(.
I'd love to hear how the glitter bottle goes down - would keep me quiet for hours :o .
I'd imagine treacle as a steady part of his diet might wind him up a bit - it's pretty well neat sugar. Then again, if it's hard to get at and there's not much (ie smeared on a swede in mid air :D) it'd probably be all right.
Good luck hunting for a radio.
24th Mar 2004, 01:51 PM
I also know one lady that used to paint little lines of molasses all over the stable walls, so her horse could lick them off and move around the stable! Nothing made her horse loopy though and she was not a lami risk either! :D
24th Mar 2004, 03:24 PM
before I reply to everyone, Ladyrose, Straw is fed in Portugal, so Charlie would be having it there anyway!
Alex, aww thanks for the hugs! :) I know you are having a few problems with Milly at the moment as well, so best of luck to her to! Charlie sends kisses!
(Pssssssst, I didnt know what a swede was untill I moved to this country either!)
horsefreak, thanks those are great! I'm going to try make the bottle today!
Sarah, thanks very much for your advice! I'm glad Tango got better! I will look into getting some straw in, and will find some way to attach a radio, I was looking yesterday and can't quite work it out just yet, but I'm getting there!
I have taught him a few tricks, bow and kiss, and am working on some others, so it's something, but he can get very impatient with them.
tasha, thank you, I will look into Baileys as well. I'd like to call a feed line, but I don't want to just ehar about their feeds, I'd like to hear about all feeds on the market lol!
nat17, thanks! I will try with the straw, I'll order some tonight! I was thinking of getting him some grass, but wasn't to sure whether it would wind him up or not, theres only one way to find out though! I'll dryt out some thistles to!
Tangle, thanks very much for the links! I talked to the YO, and she is going to organise to get a stable mirror from one of the other stables into the stable. CHarlie isn't dominant, he's to friendly and wussy! I can just see him standing by the mirror, staring it down going, hello, why wont you talk to me??
hehe, Im looking forward to this glitter bottle to!
nat17, OK thanks Ill try that to
Thanks for all your help! Ill try everything I can out!
24th Mar 2004, 09:07 PM
I just read them all again and now it seems like with all this he's not gonna be able to move!! lol! Aww! he's so sweet! i love the charlie man!
Lucy and Fern!
24th Mar 2004, 09:11 PM
Just to chip in, I'm thinking of you and Charlie, Amy. It must be so difficult on you both :( But it does mean you can spend lots of quality time together :D
I don't know much about natural horsemanship/Parelli, but is there any of that sort of stuff you could do with a stabled horse? If there is, this could occupy Charlie.
Oh, and then there's the TTouch stuff. I don't know much about it either, but I suppose it's worth looking into
24th Mar 2004, 09:55 PM
Lol Lucy! Thats kinda the point lol!
Aww thanks kyanya. I always automatically do Parelli with things like putting his headcollar on, and asking him to move over in the stable, and NH is how I was taught, so thats nothing new to him. I've been doing a bit of TTouch, but he's getting very annoyed with it, it doesnt seem to be helping anymore! I am going to keep up with it though!
25th Mar 2004, 01:56 AM
I believe the field will cure most things, after all people heal better if they are in a positive frame of mind.
My gelding once severely injured his Flexor tendon and I was told to box rest him for 5 months. After a month he was box walking so bad, I thought he was doing far worse damage then if he was out in the field. I told the vet what I was doing (ie turning him out) and he said try it and see. My boy healed in the same time as he would have if he'd been box rested. Initially, he went silly etc but soon settled.
Speak to your vet again to discuss options.
25th Mar 2004, 04:08 AM
Try to have your horses feed all ready, don't let him see you preparing his ration. This might help him to stay calm. Also cut his grain and only give him hay for a while, this too might make him calmer. You mentioned concrete? Use rubber matts as they really soften the surface and you'll use less bedding too. It is hard to watch our so loved horses in recovery, but you are doing your best and give it some time, as the wait always seems too long. Good Luck
25th Mar 2004, 03:39 PM
casey, he hasn't box walked as of yet...*knocks wood* I hung a swede up yesterday which he seemed very impressed with!
horselady, he has rubber matting in his stable, when I muck him out he stands outside the stable on concrete. Only now he is in another stable when I muck out. I cant afford to give him more hay unfortunately:(
25th Mar 2004, 04:07 PM
If he's impressed by the turnip, give him some variation by hanging big cauliflower up. Other suggestions are big parsnips, potatoes, melons (mine prefer honeydew - it can get a bit messy but mine love melons so much they'd do cartwheels for them!) a whole crusty loaf of bread (get them cheap when they are stale in the shops at closing time / weekends).
Have you hung it quite high in the middle of his stable so he can't use the walls to bite in to it?? Make it a little bit hard for him.
How has he been today? Are you getting a window put in his stable?
25th Mar 2004, 07:05 PM
Cauliflower must try that! And honeydew!
Yes its hung int he middle of the stable, I need to getr a pic of him chasing it round in mid air, its very funny!
He wasnt to bad today thanks, I couldnt put him in the stable next door, so he spent the whole time attacking the wheelbarrow while I tried to muck out! Not clever! I am getting a window cut in hopefully, and hopefully a mirror will be moved in.
25th Mar 2004, 08:59 PM
today i took his best mate regiie round and they groomed each other and said hello it was soooo cute then charlie started biting him so we took him away i will try to do this more often so he doesnt get too bored!
26th Mar 2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by shaka
he spent the whole time attacking the wheelbarrow while I tried to muck out!
You forgot the other thing he was doing - using me as a temporary source of food! And I thoght horses were meant to be herbivores :rolleyes: lol
26th Mar 2004, 03:55 PM
If I might add a good idea to keep him from getting bored AND teach him something at the same time...?
I just got back from the first day of Equine Affaire yesterday. There was a VERY interesting (one of those "why-didn't-I-think-of-that" things!) vendor there selling CDs of different annoying and scary sounds, such as air brakes going off, riots, gunshots, car horns, banging, dogs barking, etc. There were four different CD's, and they are acutally used by mounted police academies here in the US to play during off-hours of the day to get the horses used to these scary sounds. Since they are on CD's, you can set it to repeat a particular sounds as often as you like, and you can adjust the volume on your player, too.
Neat idea, I thought. Might be useful, or at least keep him entertained. ;) I remember Rumby's next-door stable buddy went home for the weekend, and there was a commerical on the radio that had a horse whinnying twice, and Rumby would perk up and whinny back! It was so cute!
26th Mar 2004, 07:05 PM
TBEventer, unfortunately, after checking and checking, I really dont see anywhere I can put a radio or CD player, but those sound CDs sound a very good idea! That whinnying thing is to cute!
Lol sorry Ladyrose! Yes he was also using you as a scratching post and source of food!
We turned Charlie's stable intop a playpen today, and he already seems much happier. A window has been cut into the back of the stable, a window moved in (Thanks Gavin!:D ), the swede has been replaced, sop there is now a bigger new one, and I tried the glitter thing, but he seemed terrified so I took it out lol!! It will be very intersting tomorrow when the mares in the field behind Charlies stable are turned out!
26th Mar 2004, 07:29 PM
Aww! sounds asif he's having fun! and mum giving him alot of new fun things!! I just had another idea!! not sure if its been said but anyway! Have you tried a bordem braker or a horse ball? i'm sure it would be very funny with a horse ball!!
Lucy and Fern!
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