Should I be using my seat this way?

[Tootsie4U]

Bonfire turns like a tank. So, I've found a way to trick him into not leaning through his turns. I post to the outside of the bend which shifts my weight which makes him react by putting his feet underneath him and out. Is this a no-no training technique? Last thing I want to do is cause more problems in the long run.

Also, even though his leaning on the left rein has decreased, its still there. When he begins to get too heavy again, I push him up harder into the bridle. Again, any detrements to that? Its helping somewhat because I think it gets him thinking about something else besides that contact for a few seconds.

Also, have found a way to deal with his spooky corners. Read the tip on the Jessica Jahiel website. It goes along the lines of 100-push ups but instead of instantly going off to do something different (circles or serpentines to preoccupy his mind) instead, push him past the scary object more intensely. Ask him to extend out or increase his tempo which gets his attention immediately. Does anyone see any negatives about that where he might be seeing that as mom encouraging him to get away from the scary monster faster? It hasn't been playing out that way, it has actually helped so far.

What do you think? Asking because as many of you know, Im not exactly qualified to train horses so everything I do has to go under the microscope :D Thanks so much. Just FYI, Bon and I are having our first formal real lesson together on Friday with a certified h/j instructor so hopefully these sort of questions will become less frequent :)

[cvb]

I guess the answer partly comes down to why we use a particular diagonal in the first place - and whether your remedy is solving the problem or merely masking it.

e.g. if it is about balance, then the problem may come through in another part of your training.

Normally the idea is to sit while the inside hind is on the ground (says she hoping she's got it the right way around). The question is why would Bon turn better if you do the opposite ? Does your riding change beyond the diagonal ?

Pushing him harder into the bridle: so that the contatc is even ? I think my basic approach would be to make sure that I am removing the "lean" by evening up the contact. That might actually be by lightening the contact, or by pushing up the "light" side to match the heavy side. I tend to go for lighter but thats my personal preference - I'm all for an easy life ! I would be tempted to go for a give-and-retake of the rein, like a "reboot" of the contact. And again, think through the "why" he is getting heavy - is it something you do (or don't do) that prompts this response ? or is it when he's getting tired ? or.... ?

Spooky corners: I've used a "work harder" approach - normally by asking for shoulder fore or leg yield along the track (at an angle so its a bit like shoulder fore anyway). I would be a bit wary about going for extension - as you suggest he may start to associate being scared with going faster :eek: (one of ours is quick to do this).

You're doing fine.... have fun with your lesson !

[Tootsie4U]

Exactly what I needed hear cvb... helping me to logically think through these!

In response:

The posting; I stay on the correct diagonal. But instead of following the bend with my body, I tilt or turn my torso out and post towards his outside front shoulder rather than inbetween his shoulders. Only to alter the center of gravity so he has to step under and out to match the change in the center of gravity.

You ask "WHY" does he lean. Still trying to sort this one out. My immediate goal is to show him that life is much easier if he doesn't lean. Therefore the pushing. I also try to vary my contact on the outside rein while he's leaning to discourage him but we haven't figured that out yet. There's some bigger underlying issue here. Im only begining to scratch the surface.

But you hit the nail on the head when you said that "whether your remedy is solving the problem or merely masking it." Thats my big question.

Thanks cvb. :)

[KarinUS]

The question is why would Bon turn better if you do the opposite ? Does your riding change beyond the diagonal ?

Okay this suggestion is probably so basic it won't apply, but just in case: When you turn, you make sure to put your weight in the outside stirup, right?

[galadriel]

Did you ever get ahold of "Enlightened Equitation"? At one point Heather talks about turning your shoulders to the outside as you turn to help the horse balance.

I was going to tell you where it is in the book, but it looks like my copy has gone astray....(!) Someone else might be able to tell you which chapter it's in.

[Tootsie4U]

Nope, dont have it. But, my equine research/reference collection is growing. That one is not yet included :o

So, does she say if that "trick" is beneficial or if its only masking the real issue?


Karin, turning Bonfire goes like this - suggest the turn about three strides away from the turn by using inside leg and rider looking the direction she wants to go. At the point where we begin our turn, rider has to immediately start applying OUTSIDE leg to keep him from falling out while still looking where she wants to go. Other than that, weight is pretty much equal in the stirrups. Thats for a 20 M circle.

To keep him on the rail on the short sides, its tons of inside leg outside rein and here's where I do that turning of the torso thinger to trick him a bit.

[KarinUS]

Okay. Try keeping more weight in your outside stirup. It's natural to have more on the inside even without us noticing and especially if we are already having to use that outside leg to apply pressure.
It may not make a difference, but I think it's worth a try.

[Tootsie4U]

Will definately give it a try, Karin. Thanks. Have made a mental note of it and will give it a whirl next time Im out on Thursday. :)

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
So, does she say if that "trick" is beneficial or if its only masking the real issue?

If I recall, she says that doing so causes you to balance properly. Not a trick, but in fact the correct technique.

[kelsey]

Interesting, galadriel, I thought that my trainer was the only one who advocated the outside-shoulder-back thing. It certainly works as it keeps your body from twisting when you advance the inside seat bone - it also helps your legs in the right place and your connection on the outside rein.

I would be careful about consciously changing your weight distribution in the stirrups - I was taught that at one point and it ended up making me crooked and collapsed on one side. I had to go for some serious retraining to straighten out again. I am so paranoid about straightness now that I am constantly nagging my trainer to run behind me and assure me that I am straight.

[KarinUS]

I am so paranoid about straightness now that I am constantly nagging my trainer to run behind me and assure me that I am straight.

:o Goodness! I had no idea that my suggestion had the potential to turn poor Tootsie into a nervous wreck!
Personally I believe learning to move your body parts independently and in a controlled fashion is an important part of riding. We actually quite often ask our bodies to do something on one side and not the other or with one part of the body when we ride.
Sometimes we are told to do something because the body feel like it does something a certain way, when in actuality it does something different. Like when you start out riding and the instructors tell you to lean back! It feels like they ask you to lay on the horses back but objectively your back is straight when it feels to you like you are leaning back. I am thinking it might be similar with the remembering to put weight on the outside stirrup in a circle. Maybe I tend to lean inward even though it feels like I am even in the stirrups? I know when I do follow my instructor's advice about the weight adjustment, my horse's way of going improves. And of course we don't practice going in the same direction each time. If we expect our horses to not be one-sided, then we riders can't be either!
The reason I even suggested it is, that it seems her horse is responding well to the weight aid she is giving him by turning her upper body. If what helps him balance is a shift of her weight to the outside I thought it might be possible to get the same effect in a less noticable way (using the outside leg instead of the upper body) so that it won't be noticable to judges should she decide to show Bon, etc.
But I agree that the side affects you describe certainly sound like they would make riding quite miserable.
So with the new information on hand my legal advisors suggest I withdraw my previous suggestion... :D Don't try this at home ;)

[cvb]

I rode with a trainer in spain when on holiday (not a spanish trainer, but a nh type guy) who had me turning to outside to get the turn.

It was interesting cos it did actually work - contrary to all the normal "no reins" type stuff where you turn yourself to turn the horse (simplistically speaking).

However - my normal over-analysis self thinks that this works because as you turn, your hips will automatically turn a little with you, and hence this advances the inside hip, as well as adjusting the weight a little.

In a "normal" turn you would expect to have the inside hip advanced but upper torso turned around the corner - I think of it as my hips being parallel with the horse's hips, and my shoulders parallel with horse's shoulders.

So - as you are NOT changing diagnonal - maybe your turn to the outside is helping you snug your inside hip and leg to Bon. Now the interesting thing will be whether you can maintain this, but bring your eyeline and upper torso back into the "straight" (ie not turned to the inside, but turning straight with the corner).

If this IS what is happening, then its probably just about you as a rider adjusting to best help Bon balance and work through. So it becomes a short term reaction and will probably 'fade' with time.

It would be interesting to be able to try some of this as part of a lunge lesson, which would free you up as a rider to experiment with upper body a little.

[kelsey]

Sorry Karin - didn't mean to scare Tootsie!

I actually found it a lot harder to ride when I was always trying to make minor adjustments - now that I have straightened out, I am able to turn with no inside rein just by advancing my inner seat bone, outside shoulder slightly back, steady contact on outside rein. It has become like a no-brainer compared to the complex analysis I used to have to make every time. And its easier on the body not to be contorting everywhere like I was before.

And I agree its important to have your instructor watch you and make suggestions - the person I went to to fix my position actually told me to put 80% of my weight in my left stirrup at the beginning. It felt absolutely terrible at first (like I was going to slide off the side) but it worked.

Tootsie, I am sure that your instructor will be able to help you with this. It only took me a week to resolve my issues. Good luck!

[Tootsie4U]

So it seems that the general consensus is that turning my torso to the outside of the bend is not correct *performance* wise, but for now, it can serve to help us get things "straight" while we work on everything *training* wise.

Lunge line lesson - Im scheduled to have one this week with the dressage instructor so I'll take your suggestion cvb... :D

[kelsey]

Let us know what your dressage instructor says - mine does think it is right to turn slightly to the outside (as did cvb's person in Spain, for the same reasons). Otherwise, if you are advancing your inner hip and turning your shoulders inwards, you are twisting your body at the waist.

This turning of the body, by the way, is very slight and should not be noticeable from the ground. You should look like you are straight.

You could always ask someone to videotape your lesson so that you can look at it afterwards. If you turn the sound on, you can hear your instructor's comments too!

[Tootsie4U]

Good idea Kelsey.

Incidently, dressage instructor is not the instructor Im using for Bonfire. The dressage is just for me to get my fundamentals in order. Its at a different barn and I dont ride Bonfire. The h/j will be used strictly to develop Bon & me together. Talk about confusing but I hope it will help. It may not be a good idea but dressage instructor wont go to my barn and I dont have a trailer to take Bon there.

[laura jeanne]

quote:
". . .so hopefully these sort of questions will become less frequent ."

I like your questions and reading everyone's answers. Even tho I don't have my own horse, I think I learn a lot from reading your posts.