running + standing martingales

[ridehorses]

could someone please explain the difference between the two? i've been told many different things about the uses of each, and i just wanted it cleared up.
also, a friend of mine rides western and runs barrels, and puts all of her horses in a tie down, which i'm guessing is the western equivalent of a standing martingale. i was just curious why she would use one, because at our barn we put them on horses who need their headset corrected, and to prevent throwing of the head, or bit evasion. why would a western barrel racer need to keep her horse's head down and collected? am i missing the point, or is a martingale simply used for extra control, or is it as i think to correct headset?

thanks, -ren.

[ridehorses]

a picture of me on her barrel quaterhorse gelding, Billy.
as you can see, he's ridden in a tie-down
Maren + Billy (http://groups.msn.com/NRphotos/gilesrun.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3912)

[ladyrose]

A running martingale is used to make sure that the pressure on the bit always comes from the right direction and should only come into action if the head is thrown up. Prevents the horse from getting his head above the angle of control -
http://www.horsematters.net/tack/runningmart.jpg
A standing martingale gives extra control over the horse by attaching to a cavesson noseband. It has the advantage that it doesn't interfere with the bit, but many horses do not like it and it isn't suitable for jumping in as it stops the horse stretching over the jump - http://www.summerpastures.co.uk/images/Economy%20leather/standing%20mart.jpg

[Tor&Warrior]

When I first got Fly I rode him in a standing. He was ridden in a standing before I got him too. I did it because I didn't know him well and he had been known to rear and has reared with me, and because if he got scared out hacking his head would come really high and he'd spin round and take off. His reaction to everything he didn't like was also to automatically shoot his head really high. The standing just kept it at a sensible height so I still had control and didn't get smacked in the face because his head would come so high he'd literally have it turned almost with his nose facing the sky!! Now I know him I no longer use it apart from occasionally jumping. The reason I didn't want to use a running is because when he shot his head up all the pressure would be applied to the corner of his mouth through the reins and I thought this would just make him react worse. I tend to think Runnings are just for horses that tend to sometimes carry there heads a little high or come a little above the bit where as standings are for horses who rear and have really bad high head problems. I may be wrong and others will know more. My friend plays Polo X and her horse wears a standing even though she doesn't need one and so does every horse that plays on the team. Every Polo X bridle I've seen seems to come with a standing but I don't know why because horses that don't need them where them, so maybe its the same as your friends horse!

[ridehorses]

thanks guys. i knew what each of them look like, and i have ridden in both, but i just didn't really understand the difference between the two.

[entreat]

Originally posted by ridehorses
why would a western barrel racer need to keep her horse's head down and collected?

Tying the head down will not automatically make the horse collect himself. Collection is about using himself through his back & lifting his tummy (and some other stuff). Collection has to worked towards with a balanced & confident horse, but many riders just expect it to happen.

I can't really see why she'd need to put a barrel racer in a tie-down because IMO, if the horse was inclined to throw his head in the air & prevent slowing/steering, a running martingale should suffice. Maybe ask her why she uses a tie-down. She might just be using because that's what the horse came with.

[Harry Hobbes]

at our barn we put them on horses who need their headset corrected, and to prevent throwing of the head, or bit evasion.
A tie-down neither corrects, nor prevents; it ties down (i.e., constrains; and only in one direction: down).
why would a western barrel racer need to keep her horse's head down and collected?
An under-trained horse often throws its' head up when it departs; and folks who do not wish to spend the time and energy to teach the horse to depart with the head low, use tie-downs in lieu of training.
am i missing the point, or is a martingale simply used for extra control, or is it as i think to correct headset? Control does not come from gadgets; it comes from training of the rider and horse (in that order). But constraint can and does come from gadgets; and yes, mechanical gadgets can constrain a horse into a "correct headset" (just like tying up a foot can constrain a "correct knee bend".)

Your friends are merely spending their time on one part of barrel racing (the fun part?); and are using the mechanical gadgets on the another part, rather than spending the time to train the horse to keep its' head down.

Best regards,
Harry

[ridehorses]

thanks everyone.


Originally posted by Harry Hobbes
A tie-down neither corrects, nor prevents; it ties down (i.e., constrains; and only in one direction: down).

thanks. i was referring to a martingale when i said "we use at our barn to correct headset.." etc., not a tie-down. maybe a martingale isn't used in a correcting manner and to constrain, but where i ride, it's always used in a training + correcting manner.

Originally posted by Harry Hobbes
An under-trained horse often throws its' head up when it departs; and folks who do not wish to spend the time and energy to teach the horse to depart with the head low, use tie-downs in lieu of training.

but what i don't understand is she has five horses, all of which she uses a tie down on. only two of her horses are young, and don't have much experience under their belt yet, but her other three she runs competitively, and none of which would i consider 'underschooled' or in need of one because she has not 'trained' them. she has done very well competitively, especially on her 14 year old gelding, Billy (pictured). i do not see it was a 'too lazy to train' issue, as she has broken almost all of her horses herself; i was curious as to why she (and most people in that area of Mississippi) automatically put tie-downs on their horses, whether or not they need them. wouldn't constricting your horse's head hurt rather than help while barrel racing?

and what you said about gadgets

"Control does not come from gadgets; it comes from training of the rider and horse (in that order). But constraint can and does come from gadgets; and yes, mechanical gadgets can constrain a horse into a "correct headset" (just like tying up a foot can constrain a "correct knee bend".)"

i agree with you there, in the exaple you provide, however i don't see a martingale or tie down as and 'easy fix'. wouldn't putting a martingale on your horse be a first step towards training him to lower his head? or in Tor&Warrior's case:

When I first got Fly I rode him in a standing. He was ridden in a standing before I got him too. I did it because I didn't know him well and he had been known to rear and has reared with me, and because if he got scared out hacking his head would come really high and he'd spin round and take off. His reaction to everything he didn't like was also to automatically shoot his head really high. The standing just kept it at a sensible height so I still had control and didn't get smacked in the face because his head would come so high he'd literally have it turned almost with his nose facing the sky!!

she was using a martingale, as you said as a 'gadget' to constrain him from rearing, however she used it as an aid in getting him to keep his head low, until eventually she didin't need it anymore. her horse not rearing because of the martingale, i would consider gaining more control.

i guess what i am trying to say is it sounded like you were comparing a tie down or martingale as an 'easy fix' or 'gadget' that's using force to keep the head down for people who are too lazy to train their horses. in some degrees, i agree, but i would look at a martingale or tie down as a training aid to achieve a lower headset or whatever, as long as used in the correct way.

lol, okay now i'm confusing myself. i will ask her why she puts a tiedown on her horses though, and thanks everyone! thank goodness for NR! :p :)

[entreat]

wouldn't putting a martingale on your horse be a first step towards training him to lower his head?

Tor&Warrior may use the standing martingale fairly loosely, and it would only come into effect when the horse wants to toss its head. But I don't know 'cause I haven't seen how she uses it.

In many cases, standing martingales and tie-downs are used more tightly, and used to pull the head down into a more classical position. From what I've read about horse-nature, horses will naturally push against any pressure with equal force (if possible). When a tiedown is used in this manner, it gives something for the horse to pull against, so when you take it away, the problem still remains. But now the horse has a stronger neck! It isn't actually *teaching* the horse anything (he doesn't understand the purpose of the tiedown). The horse's head will come down with balance and training. I don't want to say that your friend isn't training her horses - I'm certain that she is doing very well with them! But some slower work may assist the horse in becoming more balanced. But each to his own!

[Lucy J]

a martingale should not be used to lower the head, it should only come into action if the horse raises his head beyond the angle of control. i have never had the need to use a martingale on any on my horses, even my ex racehorse who reared, although if going cross country i sometimes will, just incase it does need to come into play, but generally i never use one.

[cvb]

Harry - could a tie down be used to help with balance ?

Just thinking that Icelandics use their head and necks differently to be able to balance and move at some of their gaits...

and that to barrell race at speed you really are pushing the envelope in terms of balance. So I was wondering if the tie down acted as a support of some kind, or helped an inexperienced horse to stay within certain limits of head/neck placement ?

[Tor&Warrior]

Yeah Flys martingale is only loose, and will only come into use if he lifts his head up high enough. If he didn't wear it some days I permanently have blacks eyes from being smacked in the face. I've never had to use one before on any of my horses but in Flys case it is needed. And although they can be missed used, like everything, there is times when they are needed and they should not be totally written off as a bad thing. My instructor used it on Fly when she took him XC yesterday. She is a 3Day eventer so she's pretty experienced! But if she hadn't of had it on he would of been toally un controllable and would just not of been safe. Its loose so there is still alot of movement but his head was still really to high and he was only just rideable so I would hate to think what he'd of been like without it. For him I prefer the standing to a running as a running would put the pressure on his mouth and he'd be a million times worse! I find people look at standings as a awful gadget. People see it on Fly and you think I had his nose strapped to his chest the way they carry on. But running martingales are far widely abused. You go to a show or pony club and 80% of there horses there will have running martingales on, I bet nearly all of them don't really need them. I think people who use standings do so for a real reason as they are rarely seen and only in the hands of experienced people. But I'm not saying I agree with them being used as tie downs to encourage a better head carriage as thats just stupid as the horse will just pull constantly against the pressure.

[Harry Hobbes]

Harry - could a tie down be used to help with balance ? Tie-downs are not used in events where training for balance is paramount: Dressage, Jumping, Cutting, etc., as they inhibit the horse learning to balance itself within movement.

But, don't take my word for it; try this experiment yourself: Tie your head down (only far enough so that you can't raise it completely upright, or back), and see if that trains you to keep your head down; or to improve your balance. :) Use a "running" variety of the tie-down and have someone hold the reins running to your head. How are we doing? :eek:

I suppose that the horse could or would lean against itself (through the tie-down) as emotional support, much as they sometimes lean on rider's hands via the reins; but, leaning against oneself, or the hands of a rider on one's back (a variation of isometric exercise) can never provide physical support (for balance or otherwise); although it does expend (isometric) energy. If it did, we could patent the tie-down as a "Perpetual Balance Machine"; and make Billions. (You and me, cvb; 50-50. :p ) Remember, the horse is tied to itself (via the rider on its' back in the "running" variety); not some steady object (such as the rail fastened to a wall, that a ballet dancer uses to assist with developing balance.)

Entreat's discourse above is "right on the money"; particularly the reference to the Opposition Reflex ("...horses will naturally push against any pressure…")

Best regards,
Harry

P.S. Parelli and Lyons (and others) teach exercises that result in the horse breaking at the poll, and assuming a balanced carriage; thereby training the horse, and negating the need for a tie-down.

[galadriel]

To depart slightly from the direction of the thread... (I fully agree with both entreat and Harry, so anything I might say has already been covered).

I was on the verge of a conversation recently, where a barrel racer was talking to a master saddler about her horse. She said that she'd get about 2/3 of the way around the turn, then the horse would throw his head up and evade the bit. Thus, she rode in a tie-down.

The saddler's response was that since the evasion was so predictable, it was likely a problem with her saddle. At that point in the turn, the saddle began to dig into the horse's back, and he threw his head up to avoid the *back pain*, not the bit. By tying his head down she removed the horse's ability to tell her that he was in pain.

He described a common type of tree twisting that could cause precisely that problem, and she brought her saddle over later. She had a twisted tree. He did also say that a badly fitting saddle could cause the same reaction, but that the particular twisted tree problem was pretty common too.

Anyway, the original post asked why a barrel racer would need to tie the horse's head down. Since I'd heard a barrel racer explaining why she tied her horse's head down, I figured I'd chip in.