Dundee - our story so far and help apreciated

[Moody Mare]

I was first asked to ride Dundee just over a year ago, for a friend's friend who couldn't cope with him. Then he was an under conditioned five year old who had had very little correct training - from what I can gather his breaking in was done very quickly with a 'do as I say or else you'll get beaten' kind of way at a dealer's yard and was quickly sold on to the lady I was riding him for.

Because of his past, he was fairly nervous and also very uncooperative. He was a fairly nervous ride and would either canter off at break - neck speed, only stopping hen he had either exhausted himself or unseated the rider or he would stay rooted to the spot napping and bucking.

His owner had taken him back to basics with lunging work and ground work, and had just began to ride him again. But, unfortunately she was pregnant and unable to continue riding him.

Having ridden Dee for a few months we decided to buy him and I've had him for around nine months. In this time, I've had regular lessons on him and have basically started from scatch, helping him to gain confidence and trust in me.

At times, it has been so hard and many times I though of jacking it all in, but these few months things have started to come together.

Now has a nice walk and can accept a constant contact without trying to run away from it or back off for it (for a fairly long time the minute we tried to achieve a constant contact that wasn't he would either nap like hell and try to spin around or would panic and try to b***er off and run away from it). And Dundee is now fairly balanced and relaxed in trot - although it does vary and we can still have our moments of the 'old Dundee'.

Our canter work is 'intresting' and for that reason I'm reluctant to do too much of it - our strikes off are usually messy with a lot of running (although I do expect that) with a far bit of bucking thrown in as well! When we are in the canter it varies from very hurried with a lot of pulling, head throwing and bucking to a very 'stufy' canter.

I know we've come a long way - although I am aware we still have a long way to go, but I was wondering for some advice.

At the moment I really do only do small amount of canter work and only when the trot work has been good, otherwise Dundee either becomes very nervous and anxious in the canter and so rushes and pulls and bucks or he becomes very stuffy and resistant.

Is this the right way to go? Or should I be doing more canter work? I ask, because a friend's instructor (who I havn't had a lesson with but have spoken to her about Dundee) said I should be working on the canter everytime I ride so he accepts the canter - but I'm worried that because our sessions can be a bit yo - yo like (one ride he can brilliant, the next time he's very much the horse he was year ago and it can sometimes take a whole lesson to get half a circuit of nice trot without any bucking, nappiness or just general nervousness or awarkdness) that if I push for canter it'll be too much for him and I don't want to overface or overpush him and for him to lose confidence...

And for his napping - am I doing the right thing? I don't carry a whip as he's terified of them and just goes mad if I carry one, but I sometimes wear spurs on the advice of my instructor, but when he naps I don't yank or kick him (as I once was told by a rather unrealible source) but sit and ask him to go forwards, keeping a contstant contact and if he tries to spin round I just stop him from spinning further and ask him to re - turn around.

For example - if he's napping and trying to spin to the left I ask him to walk forwards and keep a slightly stronger contact with my left leg and right rein to try and turn him to the right. If he takes a step forward, I praise him either with my voice or by a pat and offer slightly with the reins and stop asking my moment with my legs. I then re- ask for the forwards movement and if he argues I then just calmly keep re- asking until he does where then I praise him and then re - ask until he's over it and he'll walk quite happily again.

However, the same instructor who told me about the canter work, has told me that I need to be much firmer with him and instead of 'asking' for the forwards movement to 'demand' it - she basically implied that I needed to kick and pull as hard as possible that he stopped napping. I admit, I tried this once and he although he didn't nap again he did become very unsettled afterwards and was leaping about all over the place, to which she replied - 'He's learnt his lesson then, he'll think twice about napping next time'.

Am I too soft? Although he does nap still with me, he also seems to be gaining confidence and as long as I remain calm and think things through we don't have too many problems - he's far bettter than he was with his napping.

So... after this long post I guess I'm looking for your general comments on well, our progress. Should we have come further in the time I've had him? Or am I doing the right thing by taking things slowly, and although we're still having a few problems they're more minor than they were nine months ago (if that made sense?) ....

[nappy-R-us]

I would say that you are doing brill! As long as you are happy at the pace you and Dee are progressing that is all that counts. There is "all the time in the world" and you seem to be doing things properly and consistently in the hope that he is learning and gaining your trust too.

My own horse is very similar in character to yours and I too am taking things slowly as my horse has been ruined in the past by the antics of previous owners. It is more imprtant for me to teach socks that he is safe with me and I will not be moving him on the minute he plays me up.

I am patient and if it takes 2 months or 2 years to achieve my goal as long as he is not hurting me every time I ride I am prepared to persevere....sounds like you are doing the same.


Good luck with it you are doing so well and have achieved such alot in those 9 months so pat yourself on the back and be proud of yourself!

Best wishes with your future together

Clare

[Harry Hobbes]

Should we have come further in the time I've had him?
Moody Mare,

To use a naval analogy: You are trying to make progress by rowing a leaking boat. The first priority is to re-work the boat so that it is water-tight; progress can then be attempted; and you then stand a good chance of succeeding. (At least you will not fear for your safety.)

To transfer the analogy: You are riding a horse lacking in a solid behavioral foundation; and without a solid foundation, which all else is built upon (and rests upon), you will have nothing but trouble; or nothing but compromise.

I guess that I'd take Dundee back to foundational work. (The "foundation" is described and differentiated philosophically in my posts here: http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30926 )

I'd do this because he is behaving as if he does not have the solid foundation necessary to work cooperatively with humans.

What I'd Do

I would also disregard the advice of the instructor (politely, of course); for the following reasons:

1. Dundee does not have a "canter" problem; he has a problem with a human on his back driving him forward and simultaneously constraining forward movement (i.e., contact.) (Being a horse, I'll bet that he canters, trots, gallops just fine, perhaps in his pasture, while at liberty, with no human constraint.)

I'd make it a priority to train him that he can go forward at any gait, carrying me, without my interfering with him; then, when he learns this lesson, I'd gradually introduce contact, until he realizes that he can both go forward and take up contact.

I'd teach this to him using the "Severance Exercise", described in my posts here: http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28450&highlight=Severance

Only after twenty to thirty minutes of traveling, would I attempt to add contact; then, only gradually and intermittently. I'd repeat the Severance Exercise every training session (it would also be our warm-up.)

2. Spurs, whips, bits, etc. used to "demand" riding performance from the horse are no different qualitatively, then what he experienced when he was "broken in". Force is force; he knows it, and is reacting to it, whether the human realizes it or not.

I'd not add to, nor reinforce his impulsiveness and fear by reminding him of the demanding force used with his breaking in. Rather, I'd make a point of teaching him that he has nothing to fear from my use of tools, by always having a whip (or other tool) in my hand while in his presence; and I'd use it only for petting. In fact, I'd do all petting with the whip (of various flavors); never using my hand. (Me and my whip would be inseparable.)

3. "Firmness" is fine; in dealing with criminals or convicts; or nosy neighbors. Consistency is what is needed in dealing with horses; and firmness is not identical to consistency. (The horse can always be "firmer" than the human; because of its' greater strength and weight; but, the horse will be more consistent, only if the human is less consistent.)

I'd be "asking" consistently; until he gets beyond compliance, then past acceptance, to willingness. If this took 10 weeks (two hours per day, five days per week), then I'd spend the time and effort to do so (and I have). Further, I'd expect Dundee to require me, as an interruption to some activity/training in progress, to cease asking for some intermediate or advance movement, and instead focus on some basic behavioral action, such as softly yielding, requiring consistent reinforcement.

4. "Demanding" is a good way to get into a fight with any horse (depending upon their individual psychological makeup, of course.)

I'd rather train, than fight (now that I know how destructive fighting with a horse can be). If I consistently come back and ask for something, until the horse just gives in and accepts my asking (actually, my quiet, persistent nagging), then I don't have to fight with the horse. Although, I do have to be more patient than the horse.

5. His "...napping and trying to spin…" is his way of evading you and your aids; and your asking him to go to work.

I'd drop all contact (both mouth and legs) when he did this, and merely pick up one rein, and pull his head laterally into a very tight turn, using one rein only, thereby giving him a place to go forward into (a circle), for as long as he wishes. (This means that I'd pull his head laterally to the left or right, with my elbow straight; but, not backwards, as I do not want any rearward constraint on the horse's face; if I give him a place to go forward into, he will not buck.)

When he gets tired/bored with going nowhere, very fast (or otherwise), and decides to cease acting out, then I'd offer to let him go straight, by dropping the one rein I had used to turn him into a circle. If he repeats his unacceptable behavior (and he will), then I'd ask for the tight circle again; immediately; and again; and again… (I actually had to circle a horse about 25 times once, a couple of years ago; but that horse was a confirmed outlaw - but he's not now.)

The Foundation

You see, it makes little sense to try to force ("demand") the horse to perform a level 2 (or 3, or higher) task or action, if he doesn't have a solid behavioral foundation; such as not having an acceptable, soft yield, 100% of the time; or acceptance of the human's asking. However, our "riding instructors" are not foundation instructors, so they naturally put us into the saddle right away, and then proceed to attempt to fix the horse's behaviors through the use of mounted work, which is their area of expertise. This often results in horses behaving such as Dundee; and is why there is such a large and expanding market for "natural horsemen"; the natural horsemen's area of expertise is the behavioral foundation.

My professional Dressage riding instructor, not dissimilar in approach to your instructor, broke a spur on a young gelding last Fall, while "demanding" performance; and after putting a "stronger bit" into the horse's mouth. The gelding subsequently had to be taken to a very good local "natural horseman", who "re-started" the horse, to help him recover from his traumatic experience, and the subsequent emotional behaviors. (The gelding will be just fine; consistent kindness within the training context tends to heal the emotional trauma.)

I am currently re-starting a five year old Morgan Mare, who was sold last fall as a trained English Dressage and Jumper. She has no fear, but is not too dissimilar to Dundee in behaviors, but with a strong domination streak; and she too has a very shaky foundation - including the bolting and evasion resulting from contact. The prior owners and professional trainers "…don't believe in all that natural horsemanship stuff", did the conventional "breaking in"; including "demanding", with "firmness", so she has gotten very good at building and operating within a contentious relationship. (Her professional trainers told the new owners not to "abandon" her by reducing or not having contact. Can you imagine that? A trainer thinking that the horse feels "abandoned" when someone doesn't keep it constrained in the face, or about its' barrel?)

So the mare's foundation is very shaky and weak (but, she can sure do a shoulder-in); and the problems rear their ugly head when the new owners (who are not "green"; having 30+ years of owning many horses) try to work with her without all of the constant contact in leg and mouth; and the force required to get compliance.

So, I have to re-work the "leaky boat".

We've eliminated the constant contact, and the mare is now well on her way to re-building a solid foundation; and this is accomplished via the Severance Exercise, significant ground work (Parelli, Lyons), and requiring the new owners to forget about contact until the foundation is re-built.

I suggest that you too re-work the "leaky boat"; then, you and Dundee will have much more fun, enjoying each other, and doing whatever vocation you and he pursue.

Best regards,
Harry

[martini55]

It sounds like you have done a great job with this horse. This is just my opinion but I wouldn't do canter work with him until you have a well established walk and trot and he is well balanced.

With regards to the napping, I wouldn't demand for him to move forwards, more encourage and once he moves stop asking for it. Work with the basic pressure/release way of training him and he'll soon discover moving forwards is easier and more pleasant than napping.

As it sounds like he is still improving I would keep working the way you have been with him as this sounds to be working!

Good luck!

[Moody Mare]

Thank you for all your replies guys - they are really appreciated and it's nice knowing that other's think we're doing ok!

I do admit that after the comments off my friend and her instructor I have been questioning our progress and more importantly my ability, but I guess we must doing ok as no - one else shares these concerns!

Just to clear something up, as I don't think I explained it terribly well, that when Dundee starts napping I don't demand that he walks forward, I ask calmly and consistently that he does so. It was my friend's instructor that told me I need to 'demand' it and that certainly doesn't work - as poor Dundee gets nervous and wound up so naps even more!

Harry Hobbles - you've certainly given me a lot to think about! Thank you! When I'm feeling better (One hell of a headache today) I'll read your previous posts in more detail. However when Dundee naps, turning him in a circle on a completely loose rein seems like a really good idea - and very obvious once I thought about it - and will definately try it out!

I forgot to mention in my previous post, that we already do a lot of ground work, as when I first got him he seemed to very little understanding of such things. We do things like leading (he used to pull dreadfully as he didn't understand the concept of being lead) and circling, with plenty of stopping and starting - just so that he gradually understands - and he's definately improving. I try to keep it 'fun' and we do some pole work on the ground and we use barrels and jump stands. We do things like bending round the barrels, sometimes halting at them, sometimes circling around them etc, all the time working from the ground. It may sound silly, but our bond has definately deepened through this work and he's gradually learnt how to cooperate with me and to trust me.

Hopefully, it's just a matter of time before the same happens when he's ridden - but he's definately better than he was nine months ago.

Thanks again for your help - and please, keep the advice coming! It's definately helpful having 'fresh eyes' on our situation

[Harry Hobbes]

turning him in a circle on a completely loose rein seems like a really good idea Not to your horse; and that's the point: If he naps, then put him to work on circles, which is hard work, and a "bad deal" for him. Then, give him an opportunity to get a "better deal" by behaving. If he takes the better deal, and behaves, then great. But, if he decides he doesn't want to behave, then put him back to work on circles (a "worse deal".)

Horses, being inherently lazy, will quickly look for the better deal; but, only if we consistently present them with a poorer choice when they mis-behave.

Best regards,
Harry

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Harry Hobbes


Can you imagine that? A trainer thinking that the horse feels "abandoned" when someone doesn't keep it constrained in the face, or about its' barrel?)



Harry, about that... can you please read this and comment. This is relative to Moody Mare's post so Im not really hijacking :)

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/200104201932.phtml

[Harry Hobbes]

Harry, about that... can you please read this and comment. This is relative to Moody Mare's post so Im not really hijacking
http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/200104201932.phtml

She was on a roll until her eleventh paragraph (beginning immediately after: "I think that your horse is trying to tell you that he is unsure of your hands and afraid of the sudden movements of the bit in his mouth.")

Her opinion regarding "...no-contact, one-rein-at-a-time school of riding is a Western one...that assumes quite a few things about horse and rider. One assumption is that the horse is fully trained."

…is just plain contrary to the facts.

All of the Dorrance School trainers that I have studied use the loose-rein, pick-one-rein-up to cue, then-throw-it-away technique in one form or another, to train green, or re-train seasoned horses to learn to accept the rider and the demands of the rider. But, most importantly, it is the rider that is being trained how to manage themselves (body and mind), and their hands while asking the horse to perform.

I use this technique extensively; on all horses that I train/re-train; because it works better than any other that I'm aware of; including contact. As an SOP (standard operating procedure), I test the level of a "seasoned" horse's training by using this technique. (A horse that has major problems with this technique is a horse that is not mentally/emotionally flexible, adaptable and accepting; indicating the presence of "holes" in the foundation.)

This kind of training usually employs the gentlest of all equipment on the head; which is why Parelli (and Brannaman, Pate) uses the halter and lead rope, rather than the snaffle/headstall.

Her comments about "A horse in Galaxy's situation won't be able to relax and move forward confidently with a relaxed jaw and closed mouth, because he will always, at every moment, be worried..."

…are certainly pertinent, and bear attention; and this is exactly the reason why we pick-one-rein-up to cue, then-throw-it-away, until the horse gets over its' fear/anxiety and consistently accepts our cues; and also, learns the discipline to follow a cue until cued otherwise (which Bonfire, as an example, may not have learned.)

Picking up one rein to cue, then throwing it away (no contact), is nothing more than a form of pressure and release. The horse learns that we will cue (pressure), then release (and leave it alone.)

Contact has no inherent release; the horse must mature enough in its' relations with humans to learn that the release will come in a more subtle manner, and accept and postpone its' desire for release; which is why taking up contact is a higher-ordered skill in a horse. (Notice that in Dressage training, we train a lot of basic skills directly and initially; but then, allow the horse to find, and take up contact on its' own schedule; although we may encourage contact by asking, then immediately releasing; then extending the time of the subsequent asking.)

Please don't misunderstand me, Tootsie: I am not "anti-contact"; I am anti-"under-trained horse" (and rider). The pick-one-rein-up to cue, then-throw-it-away technique does not replace contact; it precedes it, as a training technique.

Contact must be employed to communicate to the horse during intermediate and advanced maneuvers, such as sorting cattle; but, communicating within the contact context is a subtle and complex skill, and the horse (and rider) must be trained in its' proper use; else there is nothing but trouble.

And, as in training for so many other things, first we learn the simple skills (no contact); then, we build upon that success (with contact.)

The Bottom Line

When you review my trainee's riding of her new (trained?!?!?!?!) mare on the tapes, you may come to the conclusion that the underlying problem with the trainee is her (very human) reluctance to just let go of the horse. When she learns to let go (mounted or otherwise), things will improve immensely. (I'll leave it to you to speculate about the causes of her reluctance.)

Best regards,
Harry

[Tootsie4U]

I hope you dont mind Moody Mare, but Im going to type out my train of thought along the lines of contact / no contact.

The more I learn, the more Im able to discern people's interactions with horses around me. The common thing is that people very often "put the cart before the horse" and ask the horse to "run before it can walk". Those are merely metaphors for "skipping steps in a horses training".

So when you say Harry, that the one rein cue is taught as a foundational concept, and not as a replacement - Im there with ya! Its got to start obviously and as the horse refines, then we can build on it.

The contact issue really has no bearing when you look at a western reiner and the responces those horses are capable of performing with minimal rein contact!

Quoting Harry "Contact has no inherent release; the horse must mature enough in its' relations with humans to learn that the release will come in a more subtle manner, and accept and postpone its' desire for release; which is why taking up contact is a higher-ordered skill in a horse." Well said.

This is really a frustrating topic for me.

[Harry Hobbes]

Moody Mare wrote:I forgot to mention in my previous post, that we already do a lot of ground work...It may sound silly, but our bond has definately deepened through this work and he's gradually learnt how to cooperate with me and to trust me.
Silly? Not at all. Natural? Definately; because you are realizing the the inherent nature and resultant behaviors of the horse.

He is responding to his alpha (leader), which you have become within the context of the ground work. Do a search on "Understanding The Ancient Secrets of the Horse's Mind" on this forum, and you will find several references to a book by Dr. Robert M. Miller, DVM, which describes the whys and wherefores of your horse's behavior toward you.

Best regards,
Harry

[Moody Mare]

Originally posted by Harry Hobbes
Not to your horse; and that's the point: If he naps, then put him to work on circles, which is hard work, and a "bad deal" for him. Then, give him an opportunity to get a "better deal" by behaving. If he takes the better deal, and behaves, then great. But, if he decides he doesn't want to behave, then put him back to work on circles (a "worse deal".)

Horses, being inherently lazy, will quickly look for the better deal; but, only if we consistently present them with a poorer choice when they mis-behave.

Best regards,
Harry

When you put it like that Harry Hobbles, it really makes sense (and seems rather obvious, I really ought to have thought of that myself! :rolleyes: )!

[Moody Mare]

Although I must confess, I am now officialy very confused! English has never been my strongest subject, and I'm a bit confused trying to keep up here! I do apologise....

So, when Dee naps do I keep the same rein contact and just turn him immediately in small circles, before presenting him with the option of walking forwards or should I be dropping the rein contact and then turning him?

[Harry Hobbes]

Moody Mare,

No apology required.

Do what you are comfortable with: If the horse will turn a tight circle with contact on both reins, without acting out, or bucking, then retain contact with both hands. If not, then use one rein and temporarily drop the outside rein.

Remember, the objective is to cause the horse to work hard when he won't behave, by turning in a tight circle; so that the horse comes to the conclusion that he'd rather just behave on the straight-away. If you need two hands in contact to accomplish this task, then use two hands.

The subsequent discussion regarding "contact", although pertinent, was a side-discussion.

If you practice the circle maneuver in the arena, prior to hacking out, then you can determine your comfort level before you actually need to correct the horse.

Best regards,
Harry

[H & Bailey]

It sounds like you are doing great work on dee.sometimes it does feel like you are going backwards but the best thing to do is write down how the horse was when you first rode it and compare.
can you lunge Dee??
From the cantering aspect I would get dee going on the lunge and use lots of voice aids so when you ride Dee definately cannot misunderstand what you want.
try and get dee to canter on the lunge and constantly say canter canter canter......
when riding i would just take it lesson or ride by ride...if you feel dee can have a try depending on behaviour i would but if you are having trotting etc issues dont push it.
Bailey had never cantered before when i got him ....he had also been a tethered pony and I honestly dont think until I had him that he had trotted or cantered free!The only way to teach him was to ride out with someone else on a steady horse and get them to canter....when bailey had to canter to keep up i did the voice aids to match..eventually he has clicked on and canters easily on the lunge.Rose my newer horse is the same she didnt know the aids for canter and didnt have a clue..she will canter outside on a hack but only if she feels settled but i still have trouble on the lunge.rose is also a nervous type horse and is a horror with large traffic she does nap slightly.i have stopped the reversing but she sometimes will still not walk forwards...i do let her just stand until the monster has passed...some people will disagree but if you try and 'force' her past she gets behind the bit and ends up going sideways or back...
when rose is going to nap I tend to use lots of leg keep my rein contact light and push her forwards with lots of voice aids, it seems to work but you have to be really positive.
As Dee is genuinely scared of things and expecting the punishment I would try not to force dee through a situation which you seem quite happy to do and disregard the instructor saying if you force dee it wont do it again!Ive found thats usually the case if the horse is just being naughty and not scared

[Moody Mare]

It's funny that you should mention the lunging, as I lunged him tonight as I didn't have the energy to ride! He was actually better than I had excpected to him - I've been quite bad and have let the lunging slip and have been concentrating mainly on the riding side of things - so I'm definately going to lunge him regularly.

It's odd that he's terrified of the whip when riding but he doesn't bat an eyelid at a lunging whip - despite much longer and scarier! He still naps a fair bit, but it's a silly sort of 'I'm going to go sideways and try to turn myself on you' kind of napping and as long as you move with him (you need to be quick though!) he seems to give up and work through it.

Although I didn't canter on the lunge today as we were pushed for time and I didn't want to strat something I couldnt' finish, in case we had problems, he was still very good and no where near as bad as I thought he would be.

I'm definately doing more lunging!