Young horse, standing martingale - bad idea?

[pickleweasel]

A friend of mine has a lovely Connemara, 15hh and 5yo. Although he accepts the bit nicely, he carries his head very high. He has a very short stride, and doesn't seem to lengthen. She alternately lunges and rides him, and I suggested that she might try him in a chambon when lunging to *encourage* him to lower his head. A knowledgeable woman who owns the menage where she works him has one, and she has shown her how to use it properly - the results have been good. However, when this woman rode him, he reared (which I don't believe he has done before), and she then told my friend to ride him in a standing martingale.

Now, far be it from me to question her advice, but this sounds wrong. In my opinion, this will not help him get into a correct outline and lower his head naturally. He has a very muscular neck, and I think that being able to fight against a standing martingale may make the problem worse and further develop the muscles on the underside of his neck. Obviously the ideal is to do everything without any schooling aids, but I can't help feeling that she would be far better off using something like a well-adjusted degogue when riding, if anything, so that he is encouraged, not forced, to bring his head down.

Any advice or suggestions would be gratefully received. I am no expert, but I am concerned that the so-called 'quick-fix' of a standing martingale could be a disaster.

[chev]

I'd be inclined to agree that a standing martingale would be a bad idea, especially if he's reared once already. The rear makes me wonder if he's maybe having too much expected of him at this stage; 5 is still quite young, and usually a rear like that would indicate frustration or evasion for one reason or another.

I can understand where you're coming from with using a degogue, but my own preference would be to try and encourage him to stretch his neck and head down without; possibly trying lots of slow work on a loose rein over trotting poles, which might encourage him to drop his head down a little.

What kind of conformation does he have? Does he carry his head high naturally, at liberty in the field? Things like that are also important to take into account.

A standing martingale should never be used to try and bring a horse's head down though. They're used to prevent a horse raising his head beyond the point of control, not for altering head carriage. If used in this way, they will, as you say, develop an incorrect outline and can also encourage a horse to lean.

I'd get some poles out, and try walking and trotting using them to encourage him to lengthen his stride, which will, in turn, produce the lower head carriage you're looking for. Better that way than to bring his head down and expect him to lengthen his stride as a result - he very likely won't.

Good luck with him anyway! :)

[pickleweasel]

I don't really know why he reared? I can't help feeling that perhaps the woman who was riding him might have been a bit heavy handed and demanding - and you say, he IS young, and his owner has very light hands and is quite petite. Maybe the change in rider and style upset him, and he just didn't understand what he was being asked? I will do some investigating tomorrow when I see her.

The trotting poles sound a great idea, I will find out whether she's tried this. I do know that she's terrified by the idea of actually jumping him, so she might not even even have ridden him over poles.

Conformation wise, he's very true to type. He does have a fairly high head carriage in the field, but it really is evident when he's being ridden - his head is almost vertical, but so is his neck. He's had his back and teeth checked regularly, and is ridden in a jointed snaffle that fits his mouth well (I checked when she wasn't looking one day!) As I said before, his neck is VERY muscular with quite a thick crest.

I hate to say it, but I think his owner may be a big part of the problem, because she seems very nervous of him. He spooks and shies a lot, both in the school and out hacking. Although she has good hands and a nice seat, you always get the impression from her position and facial expression that she's expecting the worst to happen, and I'm sure this is communicating itself to her horse so he's constantly on the lookout for gremlins - she gets uptight, so he expects more gremlins, so she gets more uptight etc. etc. ...

Another friend and I had persuaded her to take him to a local show with us on Sunday, and enter in a Prelim dressage class, just so he can have a good look around. The woman who's been giving her advice has told her not to, because he'll run away with her. Just the sort of advice she didn't need really! I'm hoping that even if she doesn't ride the test, she'll still take him along because really, what's the worst that could happen? There's no pressure, she could even just lead him round the ground or lunge him if that's what she wants, but at least he'll get to see some new things.

I'm going to ask her if she'd be willing to let me ride him next week. I'm not saying he'll go any better for me, but I'm a lot less flappable, so perhaps it'll help? And if she does see him relaxing a bit with someone else, maybe it'll boost her confidence and make her relax too!

I'm just a bit concerned about her getting lots of conflicting advice from different people, and ending up in a total mess. Sigh. We'll see what happens eh?

[chev]

Does he carry his head like this when free schooled, or lunged with tack, or just when ridden? If you can isolate exactly when he does it you'll be half way to solving the problem. If, for example, he lunges without tack ok, and then starts stargazing when the tack goes on - then I'd suggest checking saddle fit, bridle fit and his neck. If he only starts when a rider gets on, try and see if this is the same for every rider, or if it's more obvious with his owner. The more detailed a picture you can build, the easier it is to look for solutions.

Has she also had his eyesight checked? Very occasionally spooky behaviour and odd head carriage can be the result of poor sight in one or both eyes. Always worth eliminating, if nothing else.

If she's worried about riding over poles, try introducing them in-hand at a walk. He could also be lunged or free schooled over them just so she knows he's not going to try jumping them!

I think you have the right idea getting him out and used to new sights and sounds. The more he sees at this stage, the more he'll learn to relax when out and about. Ialso think having you ride him now and then will do some good - if he's lacking confidence, the last thing he needs is a rider who feels the same. If he's to drop his head and work into the bridle, he needs to be able to relax. Let us know how it goes... :)

[shandy84]

I'm sorry guys i'm going to have to disagree here.

"Another friend and I had persuaded her to take him to a local show with us on Sunday"

Not trying to be devils advocate but to be honest you sound to be putting a lot of pressure on your friend to go faster in her progress than she would like and this could be disaterous for her confidence. Also if the horse is that spooky the worst thing she could do is take him to a show where the atmosphere is buzzy better to take him on long walks in hand or under saddle.

"I hate to say it, but I think his owner may be a big part of the problem"

It sounds a bit like you have no faith in your friends abilities, not to be rude but why should she let you ride her horse just because you seem to think you are better than her i'd be furious! All that will happen is that 1 if you do well you'll make her feel useless and its her horse and 2 if it goes wrong she'll be even more terrified of him.

The best way for you to be a friend is to suggest she get an instructor to help her.

I am one for being gentle with the horse etc but if adding a standing martengale for a while helps your friends confidence then all the better.

You are comming across as if you think you are so much better than her and be aware if you sound like that around her she'll end up hating you.

[chev]

Sorry shandy but I can't agree. Adding a standing martingale will not solve the problem, even temporarily. If his owner gains confidence from using one then she really needs to stop riding him for a while and go right back to basics. Gadgets should never be used to give a rider confidence.

I think you're right saying that dragging her out to compete might be a bit much though - hadn't thought of it like that. I was thinking more that an outing to just look around might help, but you're right saying that if he's really spooky it could make matters worse.

I'd still advise her not to start using martingales or training aids to serve her own needs. Bad, bad idea.

[shakari]

putting a standing martingale on a horse that evades by rearing is NOT a very clever idea. As appossed to making the horse think 'damn my heads stuck best keep it down' your much more likely to make him think aghhhhhhhh my heads stuck i better pull against it rear higher,fall backwards and flatten my rider, especially a confused youngster. Why is it neccesary for your friends horse to be carrying itself in an outline so soon? Does she specifically want to dressage???

[pickleweasel]

Ok, just to clarify things a bit ...

My friend bought her horse when he was 4. I believe he actually turns 6 in a couple of months. I know that she really wants to do dressage on him, and she was due to ride him at a show a few weeks ago, when I did my first ever dressage test. She backed out at the last minute and then when she came to watch me said that she really wished she'd brought him along too, and was annoyed with herself. As I said, there is no pressure for her to actually ride, she could just lead or lunge him and let him have a good look around.

I have plenty of faith in her ability - that's why I'm worried! It just seems that she's convinced herself that everything's going to go wrong. I definitely don't think I'm better than her at all - I don't think what I wrote came across that way, and if it did it wasn't supposed to. We have know each other since we were about 14, and years ago, when I had a horse I was having problems with this same friend rode her with no problem and gave me the confidence to keep on trying (which I did).

She has asked me for help, I said that I didn't have the expertise to give it, so she approached someone else. The person she approached has told her she should ride in a standing martingale, which I can't see is the right thing to do (and she's concerned about it too, which is what really prompted me to post in the first place - to ask you all what you thought).

The main thing is, my friends horse has reared once only - not with her, but with the person who told her she needed the martingale.

I don't want my friend to feel she has a problem horse on her hands and decide to sell him - he's too good and she's too good for that, and it's simply not true! Trouble is, that's what she's hinting at.

[ros]

I agree with Chev.

What have we got? Strong, cresty, young (Connemara) pony; lightweight rider, quite good but not incredibly assertive and at the moment lacking confidence in her own abilities (whether justified or not); pony trundles along with a short, choppy stride, nose in the air, and therefore almost certainly hollow-backed. He's reared once with a strange rider who probably tried to push or force him, which he isn't used to. His owner has two problems - first that she can't get him to work correctly, and second that his spooking and shying is worrying her.

First thing, as Chev says, is to get everything checked and rule out the possibility of any physical problems - tack, back, sight etc. You just never know.

If a rider is at all nervous, spooking and shying tend to become a vicious circle - the horse spooks, the rider tenses and probably starts riding on a shorter rein, the horse feels that a) his rider is nervous and therefore isn't giving him confidence and b) since he's therefore got to be the one to spot the tigers and make the decision whether to run away (:rolleyes: ) he gets even more worried because his head isn't free to allow him to look at things properly. Young horses particularly need to be allowed to look around them; sometimes if they aren't really concentrating they'll come across something that's too close for them to focus on and they have to jump away a bit so they can see it properly - then of course we think they're spooking when that's not really the case...

Head carriage - could very possibly be down to the saddle, which may also tie in with the fact that he was worse with a heavier rider. Only a possibility. He may not particularly like a jointed bit? If he's light-mouthed he may be more relaxed in a mullen-mouth bit of some description - could be he doesn't like the tongue pressure you get from a jointed bit when he carries his head lower (no, they don't always hit the roof of the mouth, it depends where your hands are in relation to his mouth). Could also simply be that he's never been taught to work correctly. Having eliminated the possibility of other problems, the pole work is a very good idea; also lots of exercises (transitions, circle work and the like) that will encourage him to use himself properly and look where he's going, and, of course, relax.

There are occasions when a martingale isn't an Evil Gadget, but I really don't think it should ever be suggested as a first-line solution to a problem like this.

[H & Bailey]

I dont think a standing martingale will help.I ride in a standing with Bailey but that is because of his past if he is feeling a bit naughty he will try and evade by sticking his head right up and go.I tend to ride very light with minimal contact and push forwards from the seat.if you try and get her to ride with longer reins and iuse her seat and leg more to push the horse forwards it should lengthen and stretch down into her hands,she may panic if the horse gets jittery but if she can just sit tight and try and not shorten up the reins to tightly which is why its poking its nose and hollowing.
I would definately check the saddle and see if the bit is light..its may prefer a lighter bit like a hollow mouth?