bucking and bolting - I'm at wits end

[kedwards]

I'm sorry for the length of this post, but please bear with me because I could really need some advice.

I haven't posted about this, because I thought I could deal with it and that it would resolve. But I finally got to the point yesterday where I simply don't know what to do.

Those who've been here for awhile may know that Bud had a problem with back last year that became evident when he began rodeoing after jumps. Prior to that, he had not had a habit of bucking, but he did have a habit of bolting on the rare occasions when something spooked or excited him.

After much investigating and care by vet, saddler, farrier, and chiropractor, he seems to be in better physical shape than he's ever been. He moves much more freely, uses his hind end better than ever, and generally seems happy under saddle most of the time. But then, there are these bucking and bolting incidents which have been happening at least once a week. Unlike when it started last summer (which was only when jumping), now it seems to be his standard response to any number of things. He'll bolt off bucking if it's a nice day, he'll bolt off bucking if something surprises him, he'll bolt of bucking if he misses a distance when cantering a ground rail, etc. And it's explosive when it happens.

I don't know what to do at this point. The vet says he should be fine and, in fact, he does appear to be fine otherwise. As I said, he's rounding up and moving very well and shows no other signs of discomfort.

I don't think I'm pushing him too much. I intersperse nice trail days regularly in our riding schedule, he doesn't get worked overly hard in the ring, and any jump-work we've been doing has been crossrails and poles on the ground. He's turned out all day everyday.

I am going to reconsider his diet. Last year, I had him on a high fat feed and over winter, the yard owner switched him over to the mix that the rest of the horses are on. I'm really not sure if this could account for it. He doesn't seem generally anxious or fidgety, but he does seem more alert and responsive to things that he wouldn't have paid much atttention to before.

Any ideas of things I should consider or what I should do would be appreciated.

[mikka]

No answers, I'm afraid. But I have a couple of questions: what's his work schedule been like since his back is better? Is he up to a full load now? What work are you doing/how often, etc? Is he on 24/7 turn out? If so, does he need supplementing? Not sure what your weather's been like, but have you been in the outdoor mostly? (All our schoolies are acting nutty at the moment with the wind.) Do you lunge him?

I'm sure I'll have a zillion other quesitons as soon as I hit send!

[Edited to say that I'm sending you and Bud a bouquet of cyber hugs.]

[doris]

Regarding feed, here in the UK, horsefeeds are such big business, and the magazines are full of different diets for this and that. Many of us really overfeed our horses/ponies. It is a fact (according to many articles) that most (except those in really hard work, or with speciel dietary needs) can work on nothing except hay, grass, or fibre feed. I am not a feed expert, but I have found from speaking to horse owners, and reading about feeding, that many problems can be fixed by changing the diet, or cutting out some of the feeds that the horse does just not need. I appreciate that it is difficult if you are in a yard/barn where your horse is fed for you. But it is something to think about.

[kedwards]

You know, with all I'd been going through with him in terms of his soundness last year, I guess I was overlooking the obvious. After thinking about it today, I'm certain you are right, Doris, and it's really just a matter of needing to cut his feed down. As a matter of fact, that was the first thing the barn owner said to me when I went in today (she had observed his galloping and rodeoing routine yesterday). The problem is that he does have trouble keeping weight on. We had actually upped it late this winter when he went back to work because he was dropping weight. So, I guess my plan is to drop his feed back down and add extra hay. Maybe I'll think about adding corn oil or something if he has trouble keeping weight on again.

I longe him on occasion, but not routinely. I put him on the longe today and he started running, and running, and running, then bouncing around in a big prancing trot, then running, etc... He's definitely got a lot of energy. And through it all, he didn't even break a sweat.

Mikka, he's back to full work, except that the jumping training is limited to very small things (mostly ground poles and cavalletti). He's ridden 6 days a week, but at least one or two of them will be purely on the trail, 2 or 3 will be mixed trail and light ring work, and 2 or 3 days may be more intense ring work. We ride almost exclusively outside these days, and yes, that does make him much fresher. He's turned out in a paddock during the day and it isn't very big. Last year, he would run and play a little with his turnout buddy, but they don't seem to play anymore, so I don't think he gets the kinks out during the day as much as he used to.

[Lucy J]

sorry to hear you are having a tough time. i really can sympathise, its no fun. you don't think he could be too fit? just a thought. ciara can get really silly when she's too fresh (like you jump a 1ft high jump in the school and she gets so excited she runs off completely forgetting there is a fence round the school and takes off as if she was in an open field. she can be the same out on a hack, although she generally doesn't olt, but will jump around and rodeo sometimes.

i would lunge for 5-10 mins before you ride - either when schooling or hacking out, see if that takes the edge off. if it does nothing else it should get him paying a little more attention to you. also, what i do with ciara when she gets silly is i ban her from hacking for a few weeks and i do nothing but school. its seems to work.

other than that i can't think of anything else (other than reducing hard feed intake) to say.

keep us posted

[galadriel]

Good luck with cutting the feed down. Let us know how it works.

I do find that my girls are much saner on a high-fat diet than one with the same number of calories in protein. They've been on a 10% protein 7% fat feed for some time; while they were boarded last summer they were switched to a lower fat 12% and there was a difference; they were both jumpy and sharp (I thought they just weren't being handled enough, but then I discovered that they weren't being fed the food I had requested--and that they told me they'd feed). When switched back they improved.

Anyway, let us know how it goes. I hope it helps :)

[KarinUS]

I think investigating his diet is definitely worth a try! My horse resonds very noticably to different diets.
Matter of fact usually my horse is telling something in his feeding ragimen has been changed before the YO does...

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by kedwards

I don't think I'm pushing him too much.

No you dont, but Bud does! And, thats your problem! ;)

[CityGirl]

Kedwards -
Have you had anyone else up on him? Does he do the same thing with other riders? (Just wondering if he could be acting out towards Mom?!):eek:

The other thing is he IS feeling better thanks to you, the weather is changing & spring is in the air & he's back to being worked - there are lots of reasons he may be feeling very high-spirited.

[Harry Hobbes]

kedwards,

Just off-hand, your posts sound like Bud is a very healthy and active horse, which is not something to fix; but, rather, something to appreciate (and not jeopardize.)

Feed affects the physical condition directly; and, only affects the mental/emotional condition indirectly (via the direct affect on the physical condition.)

When Bud bucks, he is merely telling everyone present "NO" (but foremost, he's telling this to himself). The task at hand is to get him to say "YES", which requires a change of his attitude.

Horses learn and exhibit physical behaviors (that is, actions, such as bucking) to "deal with" life (just as humans do). Behaviors are easily observable when a horse does (or doesn't do) anything on command, such as take a jump, because behaviors are actions; and (just as with humans), the behaviors are very much the result of the non-observable attitude, which is the mental/emotional condition of the horse.

When we train any horse, we are directly training for the (physical) behaviors we want, and discouraging the behaviors that we do not want. But, we accomplish this by indirectly training the attitude; which cannot be directly trained, as it resides in the horse's mind (which is inaccessible to humans). The best we can do is to set up the behavioral training so that the horse comes to change it's attitude, and decides not to buck (or nap, etc.)

Saying this more directly, we indirectly affect change in the attitude through training. Once we train a horse to have an accepting attitude, then it can and will learn manifold acceptable behaviors; and cease unacceptable behaviors.

Bud needs to learn that bucking (or napping) is not acceptable behavior. He will not learn this lesson by you adjusting his caloric intake (although, if you reduce his caloric intake sufficiently, he will not buck); nor by the human ignoring his current exhibited behaviors (which serves to tell him that his behaviors are acceptable.) But, he can learn the lesson through training.

I guess that I'd not be adjusting feed to affect a change in attitude (i.e., "Yes I will"; versus "No, I won't."). (The jailers raised this to an art form on Ile du Diable in the Nineteenth Century, in order to maintain strict behavioral "control" of their charges. They received the condemnation of the world for this practice, as the practice is viewed as un-enlightened at best; and otherwise as immoral.)

Put him (and yourself) on a foundation training regimen, specifically targeting his compliance, acceptance and willingness; and, he'll then have the opportunity to come to a change in attitude, which will be reflected in his behaviors.

Such a training regimen will require a (relatively) enlightened/educated trainer, as the attitude is the object, rather than the performance. But, resources are available; and, this is entirely doable.

Best regards,
Harry

[KarinUS]

adjusting his caloric intake

Adjusting his diet doesn't necessairly mean reducing caloric intake but rather balancing what he is being fed.

[Tootsie4U]

Cha-ching! :D

Listen to Harry Kedwards, been there myself. I spent all my money too wondering if its the saddle, a sore back, teeth - and thats good to do. Our horses are smart... they know exactly what buttons to push sometimes :D Going through this right now with Mr. B, you're not alone ;)

Bon will behave like a saint for certain exercises and then become a stick of dynomite for others. Its just his way of saying "Nope, aint gonna do it, I dont like it, I dont wanna". Unless I train Bonfire to accept these exercises (incidently changes in the routine for us) he'll always be reactive to anything new or anything he doesn't take a fancy to. Its up to us to train them to accept these changes and tasks. In some aspects, that is more difficult that just getting them to perform athletically in'it? You know, get control of their minds! :eek:

[KarinUS]

“When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.”

I think what I find worrisome with Harry's advice is that I don't see much listening and searching for but rather more talking and lecturing.

It must be a great position to be in to know everything, but I am not sure it's true. While there are certainly some very good points in Harry's post, I don't think he has all the answers.

I'd prefer to stay more open-minded in regards to solutions, etc. And in the end I'd rather have a horse that is excited to work with me, is motivated and willing, rather than one that is 'well trained.'

[Tootsie4U]

But how long does the "inspector" mode go on? For how long do you deal with the bucks / bolts / rears and keep exploring *other* causes except the blatantly obvious one? That we, as the trainer, skipped a step along the way?

Listening and searching is exactly what Kedwards has done for the last year. Exemplified by her comments about vets, saddles, chiros. Same for me. One day, you just have to take a step back and look at the *entire* picture and that involves looking at US too - not just the horse, diet, saddle, bridle, bit, anatomy. Did we mess up? Could be.... And that IS being open minded ;)

You have a nice horse Karin and you two get along great. Some of us own horses of another personality who object outwardly when we alter something or "push the envelope" a bit more in their training. That is what I believe is happening with Kedwards and Bud. He performs what he finds *reasonable* but when he's asked to perform more, or something he doesnt particularly enjoy doing, then he becomes reactive. Kedwards can choose to obligue and listen to her horse and just stop asking for those things, or she wont... that doesnt make her a bad owner.

I remember a long time ago you used to have problems tying DJ. Do you still? That is a sincere question, I dont recall any updates about it. Have you gone about training him to *accept* being tied? If so, how did he react to it in the begining? Or, did you just recognize that is a fault in DJ and just accept it? Either one is completely fine, as long as you're fine with it. But, just because I personally wouldnt be fine with it and train Bonfire to accept tying doesn't mean that I disregard his opinions. Teaching a horse to get past their mental hangups is extremely valuable and that is all Harry and I are saying. Some people just choose to accept the limitations. We are saying you dont have to and the horse wont be any worse for wear for it!

[KarinUS]

:D I was actually referring to Harry's ability to listen to people, but I guess it also transfers to horses.

For example: Galadriel mentioned how different feed compositions affect behavior but Harry simplified it to a matter of caloric intake. I just felt that the cookie cutter approach might be a bit too simplified. One solution does not work for everything.
And yes, getting all the info and listening before responding is a good thing. But that's just my opinion. Harry has a right to his as well. But that's all it is... opinions.
Kedwards has noticed a discrepancy in his feed and from my own experience I think it is worth checking into. That's all.

[KarinUS]

I remember a long time ago you used to have problems tying DJ. Do you still? That is a sincere question, I dont recall any updates about it. Have you gone about training him to *accept* being tied? If so, how did he react to it in the begining? Or, did you just recognize that is a fault in DJ and just accept it?

I am glad you asked! He is tying fine! Crossties or tied to a trailer. Not as problem at all. What kind of training did I do? Patience and observation. The problem occured when the YO adjusted his feed without my knowledge and the problem solved itself when we changed his diet (as Galadriel mentioned less of the high protein concentrate and more fat- which by the way has 2.25 more energy, ounce per ounce, than carbs or protein, so- no- we are not starving or torturing him).
And bingo I have a well-behaved, 'easy' horse again :)

[kedwards]

Galadriel, thanks for sharing your experiences with high fat diets and your girls. I was using a high fat mix last summer and we just switched this winter.

That is what I believe is happening with Kedwards and Bud. He performs what he finds *reasonable* but when he's asked to perform more, or something he doesnt particularly enjoy doing, then he becomes reactive.

I wish that were the case Toots. It would be much easier to anticipate and deal with if it were. The episodes, unfortunately, don't follow a predictable pattern in terms of how they relate to the work we're doing.

I suppose the fact that bucking is involved may confuse things a bit, but the episodes are better characterized as spooks. Something startles him and he tanks off at racehorse gallop, the bucks are big, but secondary to the initial bolt. Whereas other horses might shy, freeze, leap to the side; his startle response, like a lot of ex-racers, is a full-out gallop. What is different now is the number of things that seem to startle him and the frequency with which it happens.

[kedwards]

Oops, and just to clarify, I may have given the wrong impression by saying "reduced feed." I did, in fact, mean reduced hard feed, not reduced overall caloric intake. He's lean and doesn't need fewer calories, but it may help to have more of the calories coming from slower burning fuels, as it were.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by kedwards
What is different now is the number of things that seem to startle him and the frequency with which it happens.

Aha! Much more clear, and yes, that really does sound like an energy overload.

[Dizzy]

When we train any horse, we are directly training for the (physical) behaviors we want, and discouraging the behaviors that we do not want. But, we accomplish this by indirectly training the attitude; which cannot be directly trained, as it resides in the horse's mind (which is inaccessible to humans). The best we can do is to set up the behavioral training so that the horse comes to change it's attitude, and decides not to buck (or nap, etc.)

I disagree with this opininion, I use my aids to explain and teach the horse to respond - if he misunderstands, or objects, I look for the reason why. When I work with a horse I insist that his attention is on me.

Breeze used to nap and buck, it had nothing to do with an in inaccessable part of her mind - it was a young mare in lust, who didn't want to leave the gelding she'd fallen for. She was very green under saddle (only 4 ) at the time, so I long riened her out a couple of times. Then rode her out successfully.

Feed affects the physical condition directly; and, only affects the mental/emotional condition indirectly (via the direct affect on the physical condition.)

That is not true, though feed does affect condition, if they are under or over nourished, meaning they'll lose or gain weight. The type of feed we give them should be considered carefully. I have a coloured cob who remains fat all year round, in the worst of weather, unrugged. I use a weight a tape. as a guide - she only gets hay - and never alters.

My other mare is Arab/Welsh x QuarterHorse, she also lives out 24/7 lots of hay in winter, a bucket feed if the weathers horrendous, I weight tape her every week - if she's losing I up her carbs and oil intake.

Last winter she was fed haylage for a short time, she is a lovely mare, on haylage she was unbearable, she was niggly, impateint, bargy and bucked. As soon as she was swapped back onto hay, she was the horse I knew and loved. Haylage did not affect her indirectly - it completely altered her personality.

To state that altering Buds calorific feed won't help, may be true - but its one of the first roads I would take with a difficult horse. Maintence diet for a horse is fibre, to take them out of the fibre bracket where they will lose weight, you'd have to work them pretty hard, on a regular basis.

To state that overfeeding doesn't affect thier mental or emotional condition beggars belief.

Tootsie horses do not plan thier reactions, they are spontanaeous, when he reacts to a situation he's not trying his arm, he's looking for guidance and reassurance. Believe me, he is not plotting to make your life difficult - he's telling you in the only way he can, that he does not understand or trust the situation he's been presented with.

Scientific reasoning is cold and unfeeling, thier reasoning and views don't always make sense to us , but does mean a whole lot to them.

I couldn't help noticing that you picked Karin up on critising some of the posts. Suggesting that she was lucky owning a nice horse.

I agree with Karin and I own 2 brilliant horses that make me burst with pride every time I think of them.

Sometimes you have to 'get outside the box' and work on your instincts. You also need to get out of the schooling ring and let your horse see what real life is about.

[LittleD]

Dizzy

Going to sound thick as a plank here, but I didn't realise there was so much difference between hay and haylage, my mare is currently on haylage and goes through all the characteristics mentioned in previos posts - she has a large(very large) haynet full of haylage each night, together with a bowl of Dengie HiFi, a flat measure of broad spectrum vits and mins, and as many carrots and apples that will fit in the bowl, she's also turned out several hours a day - do you think feeding her hay instead of haylage would alter her personality - she's an angel with groundwork and on the lunge but a tad unpredictable and bouncy when saddled!

[Yann]

I agree the first port of call should be to look at his feed, especially where physical factors have been ruled out. In my own (limited) experience it can have a very marked effect on a horse's personality and behaviour. The symptoms you describe are consistent with this.

Not every problem is a training problem, and not everybody is an expert at solving training issues. If you had to be nobody would be able to ride because not many of us get it 'right' or even close to it. Automatically making sweeping statements that someone is pushing their horse too hard are not helpful.

Haylage is different, usually much richer then hay, my horse was a lot spookier on it, and it's quite possible that a horse could end up 'hot' on it, though of course not all do.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Yann
Automatically making sweeping statements that someone is pushing their horse too hard are not helpful.


Taken out of context. This was not the point being discussed.

What was meant was that what Kedwards thinks is *reasonable* for Bud, Bud might have a different idea. If he's adequately developed physically to take a jump over some cross rails, we as the human would analytically think that the horse is capable of going over those jumps. However, if the horse is not keen on going over those jumps, it wont matter what his physical condition is - he can just plain refuse. Then we start asking ourselves "Well why wont he go over it? Does his back/teeth/feet/legs hurt? Does his saddle not fit? Thats good to do and good to explore. But, after you've explored all options and each one comes clean - then what? Could it be that the there's a loop in the training? It certainly should be a last option, but why can't we be open minded and include in our assessment that maybe our horses are just choosing to not cooperate? That is just another option I've brought to the table - ooh, how dare I suggest it.

Feed can affect a horse mentally and physically but should not be used to excuse away the *underlying* issues at hand, and that could be many possibilities.

Kedwards, spook, buck, rear, bolt, whatever - my assessment still stands :D They are much smarter than we give them credit for ;)

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Dizzy

I use my aids to explain and teach the horse to respond - if he misunderstands, or objects, I look for the reason why.

Gee, I hope all horses you meet already understand every aid. Where do you find these mind readers? Gotta get one for myself :D And I condone looking for reasons, search every possibility. Some have higher priority like saddle fit but dont forget the ones like "my horse just doesnt wanna." That one is a bit harder to do though as it requires us to evaluate the relationship / bond / our training.

Originally posted by Dizzy


Breeze used to nap and buck, it had nothing to do with an in inaccessable part of her mind - it was a young mare in lust, who didn't want to leave the gelding she'd fallen for. She was very green under saddle (only 4 ) at the time, so I long riened her out a couple of times. Then rode her out successfully.

Because you trained her to get over her mental hangup. Not because she needed a feed change, saddle change, bit change....

Originally posted by Dizzy

Tootsie horses do not plan thier reactions, they are spontanaeous, when he reacts to a situation he's not trying his arm, he's looking for guidance and reassurance.

You are partially correct, IMHO. Bon leans because I allowed him to lean. His leaning became severe because I tried explaining it away on everything other than the obvious; That I was assisting his insecurity by always holding him, always guiding him, and not insisting that he "spread his wings" and learn to carry himself. He was physically capable, but he had a mental hangup about it that I just had to push him through. Once I did, Bonfire tried every trick in the book to go back to leaning including rearing and threatening to bolt. He through a temper tantrum - on purpose. I'd say he planned that. (And, incidently, I burst with pride knowing that we're getting through yet another hurdle along the way as a parternship. I help him, he helps me.

Originally posted by Dizzy
I couldn't help noticing that you picked Karin up on critising some of the posts. Suggesting that she was lucky owning a nice horse..

Yes, she is lucky.

[KarinUS]

I agree! I am lucky. I love him. He is a nice horse. But I do think Bud is a nice horse as well. And yes Bon is a nice horse, too.
I very much agree with Dizzy on her assesment that Bon isn't out to make your life difficult.

I think what Dizzy meant (and I might be wrong) is that DJ is allowed and expected to be a nice horse. If I was silly enough to pick a fight with him, I could. He is sensitive. Afterall he is a Throughbred, not a Belgium.
He has had many small trouble spots and we have gotten over all of them.
He is a very smart and sensitive horse. If I get to the barn and am stressed from work, most likely he will be more anxious and difficult as well. He is very much in tune with my attitude.

And that's where I am back to the start. I said something about Harry's post because I know from experience that the diet aspect should not be ignored. But also because I think the combative attitude that you and Harry have towards Bon could very well contribute to Bon's combative attitude. Yes, I believe Bon is a nice horse, too. If he ever wanted to spend a few weeks on Karin's little farm of herbs and happiness, he would be very welcome! :)

I know DJ could be a bugger if I was that combative with him.
Maybe Throughbreds are different? I don't know. Probably it just boils down to leadership styles. If it sounded like I just accept anything I may have not been clear enough before.
If DJ behaves in a manner that endangers him or myself, of course he will be corrected.
But rather than focus so much on submission and being the BOSS I think of myself as the MOM. I am in charge because it is better for him. I am a strong benevolent leader. I set him up to succeed. I think of him as a good horse with some minor trouble spots (and there were plenty: head shy, spooking, sitting back in the cross ties, etc.). It is my job to provide him with the guidance and support he needs to be a nice horse.

Toots, I am sorry I derailed this thread like that with my critizism of Harry's post. I think we will always disagree in regards to leadership styles and that's fine. I just think you are missing out on something good and hope that some day you will realize what a nice horse you have.

By the way what did you think of the solution to DJ's tying problem? What would your course of action have been?

[Tootsie4U]

Course of action doesnt matter. I think it was a change in your attitude that changed DJ's responce to tying.

"Afterall, he is a thorobred" and "If I was silly enough to pick a fight with him..." - more about your attitude regarding your horse. Its all about how we put things into perspective. :)

I bet Bonfire would fit in fine at your place. I bet he'd enjoy that very much. As long as you stuck with his routine and expectations, you'd be happy as well.

Karin, I very easily could adopt your attitude and JUST BE HAPPY with what Bonfire is willing to give me. That would mean that we become a happy hacker and never go any faster than a trot. But I know my horse - I know he has so much more to offer than that and all it takes is molding him and showing him that these new things wont be the end of him. What was a big deal yesterday isnt a big deal today. He doesnt quite have the drive to do it himself yet, and he sometimes forgets his place, that is his personality, but Im always there to help him and encourage him and likewise, he's always there pushing me to be a better rider/owner. You seem to not understand that rationale and view it more as me being "combative".

This has gone quite a bit off-topic and for Kedwards sake, before this thread gets closed, I'll take it backl on course.

Kedwards, explore the possibility that too much energy is going in and not enough is coming out (feed). I hope that works for you and Bud. If not, just try to explore the possibility that Bud may just need a quick refresher on his "despooking" training... ok, Im done ;)

[KarinUS]

:D I actually put in the blib about him being a Thoroughbred because you mentioned before Bon is stubborn and that's part of him being a Morgan.

Another failed attempt at seeing things your way!

Anyway from past experience I can only say that diet has greatly affected behavior and that I am very very glad Kedwards is considering a diet change.
I think changing his diet back to normal will make a big difference.

I just finished reading a book called "Beyond the Hay Days" that's very good in explaining the nutrional components, etc. Definitely a good one to read when deciding what to feed.

[KarinUS]

Karin, I very easily could adopt your attitude and JUST BE HAPPY with what Bonfire is willing to give me. That would mean that we become a happy hacker and never go any faster than a trot.

I am sorry I give you the impression I just sit in the saddle and whatever my horse decides to do I consider terrific. DJ and I work very hard on improving. We just take a different approach. Basically I think people and animals learn better when they are set up to succeed rather than having the focus set on the negative.
Don't snub hacking by the way! It can be a great test of trust and rather fun and challenging. After every trail ride we went on last year I felt we came back a better team. And I was proud of my boy because he would go trough the water and around the obstacles and listened to me perfectly. The friend I went with has a very well trained horse and he'd pick his own route, not listening to her, etc. I think it's those real life applications where the difference between trained and real trust tend to show...

[Tootsie4U]

Im sorry mods, really I am. But I feel the need to defend myself. Tried responding to Karin via a PM but her box is full.

Karin, where did I say that you and DJ are limited to hacking? And that its a bad thing? I said that Bonfire would happily continue on with things at the level we're at (slow trotting and hacking periodically) and never push himself beyond that. If I wanted that, I'd could just as happily live that way for the rest of my days as well. Im not- I know we can do better so I encourage him beyond that level.

I give up. People are taking offense to this when none should be taken. I apologise if my tone has come off incorrectly.

[Esther.D]

Play nice everyone:)

I think we are in a situation where everyone is right.

In my opinion, for what it is worth:

feed can make a difference, not every time but it can, in my own observation I can tell you that Rupert gets 'high' on certain treats just like a child who has had too many sweets. And when I look on the packet sure enough they have lots of high energy ingredients. But food is not the answer to every problem.

pain can make a difference. It is certainly worth cancelling out pain as an option before you assume it is a training issue. Even then there are certain types of pain not readily identifiable by the usual methods....eg what happens if a horse is getting migraines (as an extreme option)..I know if I had a migraine and someone made me work I would certainly object strongly, yet migraines cannot be seen by a dentist or chiropractor. So pain is not always easy to rule out, the best rule of thumb is to know your horse really well and if you 'feel' it is pain then keep searching. But pain is not always the answer either.

attitude and training can make a difference. It is amazing how many horses have advanced training without the basics. And I agree that horses can just plain refuse to do something. They are capable of independent thought so therefore they are capable of saying 'no' either because

a. they don't understand what you ask
b. they don't want to
c. they don't trust you
d. they are insecure in their own ability
e. they are in pain
f. they are effectively 'drunk' on too much high energy feed

etc etc

But again, training is not the answer to every problem.

You are all just tackling the same issue from different viewpoints and you do actually agree on quite a lot of points if you read the posts back over..its just no-one has realised this yet:)

[Tootsie4U]

Bless you Esther! You have said it so eloquently.

Good point about migraines Esther... you're always thinking ;)

[ros]

Gosh - lots of opinions here! ;)

I think everyone has a point.

At the end of the day, horses aren't always the little angels we'd like them to be. I'm a great believer in giving mine the benefit of the doubt, but if I've ruled out all the things that could be my fault, then I just have to accept that they're taking the mickey.

I do rather wonder whether Bud is doing just that, and I think if he were my responsibilty - having taken all aforesaid precautions, of course - I'd do as has already been suggested and cut out all hard feed; if that didn't make an appreciable difference after a week or two, I'd stick him in a sharper bit and jolly well stop him dead if he tried to take off ;) .

[CityGirl]

Always an interesting discussion. I do think that all of us here agree that the first step when a horse won't do something is examing the outside influences. Does the saddle fit / is he in pain / too much or not enough feed / etc. We have to rule those out before we can move forward.

That being said, I do entirely believe horses can be out to make our lives difficult:D IMO, a horse has a personality just like a person & they too can have difficult days & take advantage of their rider. Case in point, I saw a girl jumping her pony this weekend at the show. They went beautifully in the schooling ring & pony was very responsive. Then we had a rain delay for about 90 minutes. The pony clearly wasn't excited about it & REALLY didn't want to go back in the ring. Tossed the rider at the first fence. She got back on. Tossed her again. She got back on. Went over 2 jumps, pony tossed her again & came merrily cantering over to the gate (jumping several jumps in the process in perfect form;) ) That pony clearly made the decision he was done for the day & having seen him earlier it wasn't a pain, lameness whatever issue.

I also think different horses need different leadership approaches. Some will respond to the "benovolent leader" approach. Karin, from your posts it seems that works for you & DJ. You don't have to make an issue of things b/c he looks to you and accepts your guidance. Some horses in my opinion are too alpha for that. Some need to be constantly checked & reminded that they are the beta horses (especially when they're younger). Maybe this is the case for Bon.

At the end of the day, we're all trying to do what's right for our horses. Some approaches will work, some won't. But we're trying them & that's what is important.....

[Yann]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Taken out of context. This was not the point being discussed.



How can you take a one line post out of context?

[Tootsie4U]

Glad I dont have the only horse out there who tests his limits now and again. I was begining to worry :D

Alright Yann, you got me:D I guess you cant. Just wanted to say that your assessment of what you thought I meant wasn't quite it. :) It can be hard to express tone via written word.

[KarinUS]

City Girl- the voice of reason! :) I can agree with that. I had a problem with Harry completely dismissing the idea that the change in feed would not be worth pursuing. Then I started to be as closed minded as I found that post to be. Shame. Shame...

[Yann]

Fair enough:D

I have one of the world's nicest horses, but now and again I run up against her iron will. Most training and things we ask of them involve some things they don't want to do and will resist in their own way, how we approach this and respond to this is what matters. Being open minded and taking the horse's perspective into account are what matters.

[kedwards]

Thanks everyone for you input. When I posted the original question, I was feeling abnormally frustrated after a tough day, but I found a bit more "wit" the very next day. I guess I wasn't at it's end of it after all:D

We've already cut down the hard feed and the yard owner will be slowly switching him back over to the higher fat pellets. It worked for us last year to keep weight on him when he was working harder, so I suspect that will do the trick.

For what it's worth, I really don't see him as "taking the micky" so to speak. There isn't a malicious bone in this horse's body. He's otherwise very willing and the bolts don't correlate with work demands. It isn't that he's bolting off when I ask him to do something, he's just more inclined to spook in general. Plus, I can't see how he'd have much to gain by it, as my response to a bolt isn't very pretty and he most certainly doesn't get out of work as a result.

I'm feeling very optimistic overall. Bud is an extremely sweet horse and I feel bad if I've given anyone the wrong impression about him. He's never nappy and he doesn't tend to be particulary willful, but he has become "spookier." Hopefully the adjustment in feed will take care of that. If it doesn't, I'm prepared to bit him up if need be.

[IrisSilverMoon]

have your reactions about what he "might" spook at changed over time?

I notice a lot when a horse gets spooky the rider sees something as a potential spook and then the horse all of a sudden sees what you are looking at and starts worrying because you are worrying. I do it every so often and i think most others do as well. Just may be a reason to look at.

I used to ride a horse that spooked at literally EVERYthing...he wasn't mean or unwilling to do work, he was just very scared of the world. The good part about him being so spooky was tat since he was also inclined to be lazy a little spook usually woke him up! I often had a better ride afterward...:p So also try to look at this as maybe a good thing, bucking and bolting is never good I know, but if he has a little extra energy afterward you can really use that to get more energy out of movements that are otherwise harder for a horse to do...very surprising how they can actually bend AND be forward after a spook. I got a very nice shoulder in from George (the current school horse I ride) after rain started making loud noises on the arena roof...:D

are there specific things bud seems to be looking at? I know a bunch of people at my stable with horses spend lots of time doing natural horsemanship and just walking their horses everywhere they can so they can see the world and get a chance to hang out and maybe eat some grass (we have a very scary parking lot...LOL...one of the things people do is take the horses down the driveway, the result is the parking lot is less scary) Maybe something like that could help?

[Tootsie4U]

I was at a Chris Cox clinic and he mentioned something that never dawned on me before. A horse can see what his rider is looking at. Their peripheral vision allows them to be able to see what our eyes are pointed at! If you are looking at the scary object, the horse figures there is all the more reason to be afraid of it. What do ya think? I've noticed, it tends to be true. :)

[LittleD]

Tootsie4U,

We ride in an indoor school which has a door that comes up to the top of my head 5'10"! When we ride 20m circles down that end I can't help but look over the top to see what's going on, and every time my horse looks out over the top as well, my instructor said "OK next time, keep your eyes focused right in front between her ears" and guess what she never looked over the door once, so yes I suppose they do look where we look and maybe we could use this for spooking past scary things by not looking at them ourselves!
I live in hope!!:rolleyes:

[KarinUS]

A horse can see what his rider is looking at.

I think that's defintely true! I attended a Parelli Playday last year and they told us how important it was not to anticipate or pay attention to scary objects (they used lots of tarps, etc.) or the horse would get worried too.

I still think Kedwards is on the right track though, just because I have gone through something similar with DJ. It's difficult to explain and probably sounds kind of crazy but too much grain seems to make some horses loopy.
The thing is that when my horse went through that phase (when the YO had doubled his grain without my knowledge) he would get jumpy and spook for no reasons apparent to me. There was nothing I would have given a concerned look! Him sitting back in the cross ties seemed to happen out of the blue. I didn't anticipate any scarey objects. I had no clue that his feed had changed so dramatically until after I mentioned to the YO that DJ seemed terribly anxious all the time all of a sudden.
Once we dropped the grain and added corn oil instead to keep the calorie count the same he returned to being his sweet old self.

Again I understand why this may sound like I am making excuses for my horse and it was something entirely different that made him overcome this phase, but the easiest way to explain it for me is to look at it like this:
Toddlers have certain sleep requirements and horses have certain feed requirements.
Imagine you have guests over. It's nearly midnight and your toddler is behaving terribly! Cranky, whiney, and totally wound up all at once! You know your kid. He normally isn't such a brat. He should have been in bed 4 hours ago.
You could take the kid to the bathroom and spank him. After some crying he would probably be quiet and you'd have achieved what you set out to do.
Or - as I would do- you could realize that he is behaving that way because he is sleep deprived and pack him into bed.

:)

[galadriel]

The human head is a rather heavy thing. The shift in weight caused by turning your head is quite evident to a horse :) Even just flicking your eyes, though, can change your posture slightly such that the horse can tell that your attention was directed there.

[kedwards]

have your reactions about what he "might" spook at changed over time? ]

Yes, I'm finally starting to realize that I can't take for granted that he won't be bothered by things, so I ride him more positively if there is something I expect he might be distracted by. I have little trouble getting his attention refocused on me if I have reason to believe that he will spook. It only ever results in a bolt when I don't see it coming.

[ros]

Just to pick up on what Karin says about the Parelli philosophy, I think we ought to qualify the idea that you shouldn't pay attention to scary objects.

I think we need to be aware, at least, of things that our horses may notice. There's no harm in regarding such things casually and making a mental note. If we don't worry, he probably won't worry. Fine.

However, if our horse DOES find something scary, I think it's worse for him if we purposely disregard whatever it is he's scared of. If he thinks there's something out there that we should be running away from, he's far more likely to overreact if we ignore his messages than if we say "Oh yes, I can see it too. It's just a cow/puddle/twig/bunny rabbit - nothing to worry about."

If Merly sees something he doesn't like I have a phrase he understands. I say "D'you want to look?" or "D'you want to sniff?" and that tells him I've seen whatever it is he's wary of and I'm not bothered by it. Sometimes he'll stop and look; sometimes he'll go up to it and sniff it. More often than not he won't bother.

Obviously that's all very well if you're reasonably alert and your horse doesn't catch you unawares, and I know it isn't quite the same as what Bud is in the habit of doing, but I thought it worth a mention if we're on the subject of spooking.

[KarinUS]

ros,

I think the difference is the timing.
Like when I see something that I think he might get worried about but he hasn't shown any signs of it yet, the correct approach would be to ignore it so I don't give him the idea that there is in fact something to be scared about.
If there is something new in the field (we just had some rolls of new fence wire brought in for example) and he shows signs of being worried about them, I don't see a problem with letting him take a look at it.

[kedwards]

I think there is a place for the approach and sniff, especially with green horses or with truly scary objects, but I wouldn't use it with every horse as a matter of course. If you haven't set up the expectation that going past minor distractions is expected, what do you do when you meet new obstacles or distractions in competition? Stop and sniff?

In Bud's case, he really is pretty good with new objects. It's only the unexpected bolting to suprises (startling noises, animals suddenly running nearby, that sort of thing) that has been a problem.

[IrisSilverMoon]

have you considered sacking him out?

by this I mean putting him in a lunging cavesson and snapping a whip or a bag, something scary that looks wierd and makes a noise and not letting him run, another part of this is running the whip over every part of his body so he sees the scary object making the noise won't hurt him.

this is only something I would do with the help of a trainer that has done it before though, someone that knows they can keep the horse from running and exactly how to do this method.

the idea is that he learns scary noises happen and no one will let him get hurt when they happen, its something we do with every new horse that comes to our barn for training.

[ros]

Karin - yes, exactly. That's what I mean about being aware, but ignoring in the first instance.

Kedwards - I know what you mean. Merly has always been the jumpy type, particularly if we're on new territory. I don't use this approach routinely but I find it extremely handy on occasion. I'm quite happy to push him on past something if he's just out to be silly, but I'd never attempt to "kick on" if he was really scared. Consequently I've never had a "battle" of any description with him. If I were to compete him I think he's the sort who would get sufficiently fired up not to notice little distractions anyway - it's amazing what a bit of adrenalin can do ;)

I'm just watching someone with a youngster. She's had him for about 6/7 months, broke him last autumn, and is still having REAL battles when she hacks him out alone. She wants to compete him and says exactly what you do about not being able to stop and look at things in competition, but I think in her case she's taking it a bit too far. Baby jibs at something and immediately she's at him with heels and whip (it's quite normal to see her clinging to a spinning, rearing horse, or disappearing up thje road in full canter) and he certainly doesn't seem to be improving at all as far as WE can see :rolleyes:

So there's a balance, isn't there?

[Tinkerbell]

Absolutely, Ros.

And everyone is the expert on their own horse.

[kedwards]

I think we're on exactly the same page Ros. It's one thing to ride positively past a scary object or to calmly redirect a horse's attention, it's quite another to make the whole situation even scarier by spurring and yipping at them. The whole object of habituation is to reduce anxiety, doing things that key the horse up even more can just heighten it.

Again, thank you everyone for your responses. I've had a hard time putting Bud's behavior into words without sounding as though I'm contridicting myself. But, for the record, he really is a very kind, confident, and willing horse.

Since I've written the original post, I've had another lesson with my regular instructor and had the opportunity to talk to my previous trainer. They are both all smiles about him because he looks great, moves beautifully, and responds better under saddle than ever (short of the occasional yeehaws). They both just see him as exploding with energy and being a bit, shall we say, overenthusiastic. I'll keep everyone posted on his progress.