Thrush? Pain? Permanent sedation?? HELP!!

[shaka]

Charlie is off to Liphook Equine Hospital on May 4th (shaka's Birthday!) And Im worried about a few things.

He was really carrying on today. Bucking, striking out, rearing, both in his stable and out. He kicked out when bucking while toed up on the yard as there was no where else to put him, and he put his back hoof through the headcollar hanging up outside the other stable. He got it out himself, but then had to be put back in his stable. I then had to get Forbesey to hold him outside as I put his water inside his stable, as I knew he'd run out, and I didnt want to shut the door and be in the stable with him. We wrapped the lead rein round his nose and both wore hats, THATS how bad it was. She let him go back in the stable and said he seems to have calmed down a bit. He then squealed and attempted to buck, which kinda told Forbsey lol!

First question. I am having the most enormous problems with thrush in his hooves. The main one is I can't treat it, and I cant pick his hooves out every day, simply because I get kicked everytime I do, and a lot of the time I can't get hold of the foot and have it still. He strikes out with his fronts, and even rears. I dont think it's pain. Today I only managed to pick out one hoof, I have taken his bed away, he is on matting, and just has banks all round. The old sole came away a few days ago leaving the new one underneath, but I know that is going to rot away soon to. The only thing I can think of is sedate him maybe twice a week (thats all I can afford) and pick his feet out then. Any other suggestions?

Second: He really isn't settling as well as we thought he was, and Im worried he has done more damage. What do I do if the vet says permanent sedation or euthanasia? I dont want permanent sedation, I really dont. In my eyes, he's as well as dead if thats how it has to be. I'd liek to know what ytou all think though, as Im sure you all know a lot more then me!

Third: I always thought he was behaving as he does out of frustration in being locked up in a cage, really. Now Im not so sure. I used to thuink he wouldnt kick out if he was in pain, but he IS kicking out, and I know he must be in pain on the broken hoof, but what of the other three? How do I know he's in pain in the other hooves?
I know these questions may be hard, but I need answers:(
If the vet says he has another broken pedal bone or other bone, I dont want him home. I want it done there and not know about it till it's over. What do you guys think? Do you think he can cope with two broken bones? Do you think I should be there? Also, what if he says its getting worse? Do I have him home then?

[luv2jump2!!!]

Hunni!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hugs!!!

All i can say is do the best for him AND YOU!!!!!!!

Lucy and Fern!
P.S. Add me on msn again plz!! i wanna chat!!!

[shaka]

You're gonna have to add me I dont have your addy! americusfarm@hotmail.com

[JaniceH]

I'm not surprised you are worried, you and him have been through such a lot. I don't know much about injuries at all, but he is going to the best place, with really knowledgeable people who know what they are doing and have dealt with problems similar to Charlies before. Write down all the questions you want to ask them before you go, just like you have here, so you dont forget anything. Personally, and this is just my opinion, if he were mine and if the choice was going to be permanent sedation or being put to sleep, I would choose the put to sleep option - I couldnt bear to watch any horse suffer like that.

[Tootsie4U]

Shaka, does he get any turn out now? Anything, even if its just in hand grazing or a quick stroll across the lot?

It seems to me that the primary focus should be to *somehow* get him calmed down so that you can treat him effectively. I know thats easier to say than do. :( I'll try to think about this tonight. I feel for you, so sorry you have to go through this. :(

[nutkin]

Shaka I really feel for you having to go through all of this. Tootsie is right in that it would be far better for him if you could get him calmed down. I presume that as he is on box rest he is no longer having hard feed as he shouldnt need it. Is it at all possible that he could be penned in somehow in an outdoor soft surface the same size as his stable as i would think just being out of his stable would benefit him enormously.
We have a horse who has blown a tendon in 2places and is supposed to be on complete box rest. He is now living out in a field on his own as he was pacing round in his stable and we thought he was going to do more damage because he was so stressed. He only damaged his tendon a few weeks ago and already there is signs of improvement since he was turned out. I know that Charlie needs to be kept calm. Perhaps you should talk to your vet and explain how dangerous he is becoming as a result of confinement and you are concerned he will do more damage if he is confined much longer. Can he see much of what's going on around him whilst he is stabled. If not is it possible to move him to another stable so as he can see what is happening all day. I wish you the best of luck and i really hope it doesn't come down to having to put him to sleep.

[shaka]

Janice, thanks very much, I will do the questions now.

Tootsie, he gets absolutely no turnout. he gets no grass in hand either because to get to it he would need to walk quite a way. I was giving him a supplement to try calm him, but it had no effect at all. Thanks very much.

nutkin, he is having a handful of hifi cubes and hifi chaff and thats it. And plain hay. I thought of penning him out maybe to the school or a field, but the thing is, to egt hgim there he just has to walk to much of a distance. He would also jump if he was penned in a field, when he ate the grass and saw the other. Frustrating, but I know he would.
I will definitely talk to the vet again, the story on your friends horse with the tendons has helped. From his stable he can see the main yard and all fields including the xc course where he watches other horses ebing ridden. When he watxches he is totally still, so I dont think thats what is exciting him. Thanks very much!

[paddywak]

i assume you mean sedation while on box rest i think you should try other calments before sedation try sumin like relax or placid etc! give him more likits spend time grroming fussing him etc give him ad lib hay!!!! like 1/2 bale it will keep him quiet!!! why dont u work on picking up his feet up or get the oxycare spray from nat the vet gave it to her it kills thrush immediatly!! just get him more likits and toys and stuff cut up carrot and mix with his shavings!it takes them yonks to get it all out! these are just tips to calm him down and chill him out !

[shaka]

I have tried calments but to be totally honest Im not happy using any form of sedation at all. I would like to give him more likits, the only problem is it's pure sugar, so not good! I cant afford ad-lib unfortunately, I know you think its all money, but I am paying for two ponies on box rest. With regards to oxycare, to use it you have to hold the foot up for a length of time which I cannot do. As with picking his feet up, what do you think Ive been trying to do every day lol!!
Somebody went into my stable and mixed carrots up in the shavings. He ate practically none, and when I kept them in he kept apwing quite hrd which I wasnt happy with. Im also not happy that he might be eating woodshavings.

I would get him a ball but cant see that being good! Hell be chucking it over the door every two mins lol!

[Tor&Warrior]

I think really you know whats best for him and any decision you make, what ever your reasons, we will support you 100%.
You've got to think about whether you can cope with him for the rest of the time he's got to be on box rest, and also whether he can cope!
One of the eventers at works fractured his hip really bad last year and had to go on box rest. He is an ex-racer only off the track a year and a half and box rest just blew his head. We had to do something or he was going to kill us or himself. The vet also said that he was damaging his hip bad and it would never heal if he didn't stop. We were left with calming him down or putting him to sleep. We decided as it was his only chance so what did it matter if he damaged himself beyond repair, we turned him out. Like nothing was wrong. He had a complete fit around the field and by the time he was finished could hardly stand he was so lame. He was seriously lame for a couple of days but it got better. And after the initital mad moments he was a total dream because he'd let off the steam he'd needed to and he was out so he was happy and because it hurt he was quite as a mouse. 3 months later he was totally healed and coming back into work. We took a major risk turning him out, he could of ended up being put to sleep there and then but if we hadn't risked it he wouldn't be here today. Maybe mention it to the vet, it could be a last option! I really think you need to let your vet know how dangerous he's becoming and see what he thinks. Ask him his honest oppinion about the whole situation and what he thnk would be the best thing to do. Good Luck, keep smilling and keep us all up to date!

[shaka]

Thanks Tor! It would be fantastic to be able to turn him out. I was turning him out in the school about twice a week beofre we knew what was wrong, and he would throw a fit everytime, but loved it. He would always come in more lame though. I talked to my farrier ages ago about a shoe that galadriel suggested, and the idea of turning out, he said the pedal bone was a moving bone, like the wrist, which I knew, but still didnt answer the question! The hip and tendons move though, so myabe. I will talk to John when I see him. The thing with Charlie, is he is pretty thick, he is probably in pain now, but still he keeps banging the hoof against doors and walls, so I don't know?

[Tor&Warrior]

Yeah it'll only work if once he's had the initial mad moments he chills out, like Rocky did. If he carries on being a maniac even when out its not much help and it'll just be worse!

[LindaAd]

Poor you, Shaka - what an awful situation. I had Barney on six weeks' box rest last year, so maybe I can help. B was demented being shut in a stable, he's a heavyweight cob, but he was trembling, and the sweat was dripping off him... The thing that calmed him down was giving him a companion - there is a little fenced off paddock in front of the stables, and we put an old pony in there full time, and he and Barney made friend, grooming each other over the stable door and talking to each other - the difference was unbelievable. Could you arrange anything like that?

The other thing is feed - I wouldn't give a horse on box rest anything but hay. The vet told us to mix B's hay with straw, so it would give less nourishment for more chewing. And we put it in two haynets, one inside the other, to make it slower to eat. Oh, yes, he did get a bucket feed with hi-fi and plenty of carrots, just to keep him happy, and I cut lots of green stuff - grass, nettles, tree branches to chew - to put in his manger, again to keep him happy. It wasn't fun, but it was manageable.

Barney had to go to Liphook too, and they were wonderful there. The whole place is so calm, and the people are so kind and helpful, he was perfectly happy there. Didn't want to come home in fact.

Hope this helps a bit - what is he having done at Liphook?

[shaka]

Tor I cam imagine!
Linda, outside the window (Below) is a field that has mares in during the day. He gets on OK with them, bud doesnt really talk to him. He doesnt have space for a companion though, which is a great shame.
http://img29.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Shakaandme/Charlie%20pics/playpen.jpg

Ive done the two nets inside the other, and will order some straw, I really like that idea. Ive been getting him some grass occasionally, do you think thats ok this time of year? I will cut out the feed, thanks!
Yeah I love Liphooks stables! Beds are nice lol!
He went origianlly for an MRI and nuclear scan as they didnt know what was wrong, but just did the x-ray and found the fracture. He is going back now for another xray on the same foot, but due to the way he has been carrying on he is getting all 4 feet x-rayed.
Thanks very much!

[nat17]

I know its tough shaka , having a horse on box rest, as Min was also on long term box rest after her accident. But, is there anyways you can turn him out in a pen, school,mud paddock, orchard etc anything basically?? Turnout can be the best solution for horses that cant box rest, just restrict what room the horse has to gallop about , reduce or stop bute altogether, and maybe give an old companion/goat/sheep etc .If not then you need to serriously need to look into providing ad-lib hay to keep him occupied, the usual tricks will help , hay nets inside each other etc, but to stop his frustrated behavour something needs to change drastically before some one gets hurt, including charlie. I know its costly but its something that has to happen. We dont want anything to happen to you, but you need to make a change to his life as he is going stir crazy.

[paddywak]

amy u shud ask dd and gavin iff you can fence off a tiny bit of the car park and put him in there im sure it wud be fije also when horses r on box rest u dnt pay turnout so that would mean u could buy more hay with tthat money that would have been spent on turnout try spraying oxycare spray on a large lump of cotton wool and then make him stand on it then he will get it on his sole and frog u never no its worth a try i have a decadron toy if u want u can use that for a while as paddy is turned out most the time at the mo trouble used it when she was in and it calmed her down loads coz all the treast never come out!

[Tootsie4U]

The only thing I could come up with is this, and it might be a far stretch for your yard.

What about a small little round pen where he could go for the day? He'd be able to be out, see the sights, smell the fresh air and talk to his horsey neighbors. They're small so it would limit the amount of running and thrashing about, but the most important thing is that his mind would be occupied.

Depending on your farm's budget, they're not *too* expensive (for the smaller ones) and the benefit is that they'd be able to take it down and store it until another layup comes along (or a mare has a foal and has to have restricted turn out, stallion turn out....)

Wish I could think of more to help...

[LindaAd]

If you're buying straw, it should be oat straw, n ot wheat - sorry, forgot to say that...The enclosure idea is good if he'd stay in it (Barney wouldn't); could you "borrow" one of the mares and tie her up outside the stable for a while, or pen her next to the stable? Because if they're in a herd, they won't bother with the one in the stable. But anyway it's not long now til you know what the future will be... Best of luck.

[Lovecat]

re. the decahedron type toys - I have seen a lot of horses get very angry and annoyed with them because they can't get the food out, and have ended up kicking them repeatedly against the stable walls in frustration... so possibly not a good idea for Charlie?

[shaka]

nat, im going to look into maybe seeing if it would be at all possible in any way to get a companion animal. The only problem is the stable is very small, and I can see him getting annoyed. he has a mirror, but hasnt seemed to noticed its existence. Thanks for your reply!
Paddywak, thats not going to get me any more money, buit I have spoken to an adult on the yard who didnt think the car park would be a good diea, due to the gate and the cars that are in there, I can see him putting a foot through the window. With standing on cotton wool, horses dont like standing on foriegn bodies, and Charlie is no exception. He would regard the wool as a foreign body and wouldn't stand on it. Im bringing some sedative down today though, and if Nat feels like giving him a free shot Ill see, if not, I dont think I could afford it. Thanks for the offer of the decadron toy, but as loveccat said, it can cause great frustration, and you dont know if the horse has colicked with all the noise going on. Thanks for your reply
Tootsie, Ive thought of it, but the only problem is where. The yard itself is a big area, and I know to get him to a field he would have to have on a chifney, halter, quite a lot to keep him on the ground! Plus at least two handlers, if what happened when he last went to Liphook is anything to go by. I will talk to the vet though and see what he says, if its ok, there is a garden he might be able to go in, but its very small and there is a swing and log in there, and the fence is only about 3', which worries me! But its grass! Thanks for your reply!
Linda, lol, yea i know about the straw. as for the mares, thats how he got his foot through the headcollar yesterday. There was a mare that he was talking to and he just went crazy, he seems fine with a gerlding though so I might do that, thanks!
Lovecat, yea Im not really a great fan of balls! Thanks!

[galadriel]

Originally posted by shaka
With standing on cotton wool, horses dont like standing on foriegn bodies, and Charlie is no exception. He would regard the wool as a foreign body and wouldn't stand on it.

...is that actually bad? If you can come up with a way to let him work of some energy, but keep him from being enthusiastic about actually stepping on that foot--wouldn't that be a helpful possibility?

[shaka]

Hey that would, thats a good idea, I'll talk to my farrier and see what he can do, thanks that sounds a good idea!