Draw Reins and schooling

[WhiteIceGem]

I am re schooling my friends mare with the eventual aim to doing local level dressage and SJ. She is 12 years old and hasn't been worked properly for 2 years. She was well-schooled but 2 years at grass due to not having a rider haven't helped! She isn't very forward-going in walk or trot, but polework livens her up. she has massively over-developed muscles on the underside of her neck which prevents her from working on the bit, she pokes her nose out. Her saddlle has been checked and is ok, and she is ridden in an eggbut snaffle with a single jointed mouthpiece. We are using draw reins to encourage her into a better outline and she doesn't object to this and will work quite nicely in them once she realises she has to! I don't want her(or me!) to start leaning on them, does anyone use a different schooling aid to encourage an outline that doesn't allow the horse or rider to lean on it? I'm thinking on the lines of an elastic bungee type of gadget, and want to know peoples experiences/opinions of their use.
Thanks People!!
I know there's a lot of knowledgeable ppl out there who will able to help!

[k888tie]

instead of using draw reins, mayb try long reining her...just walking, as u wil be able to see what she is going etc and if she is using all her muscles properly....like if both her front end and back end are both engaged. im no expert but draw reins can screw up a horse if not used properly and it would be a real shame if ** horse and ** rider ended up leaning on them and relying on them too much. but i would suggest going back to the basics so lots and lots of school work, and then loads of grids when it comes to jumping!:rolleyes:

[WhiteIceGem]

She lunges fine, the long reining is a good idea to get her to go forwards, we've done a bit but she gets bored so quick! She's a stuborn little so and so, she's basically had her own way for 2 yrs and thats the way she likes it. we're getting there, but its going to take a while. Polework and small grids of cross-poles help a lot, i tend to go pretty much straight into polework when i school her, 5-10 mins of walk in the school is enough for her to switch off totally, untill the poles come out and she's a different horse. We'll have cracked it once i can get her used to going in a lower outline, the draw reins help with this, she used to go beautifully 2 yrs ago, she knows what to do, the draw reins are used as a reminder only.after 20 mins with them on i take them off, and with the help of a few raised trot poles she'll drop down nicely, but its just keeping her there!!! fFrom her point of view its either, "OK I'll go forwards and liven up, but i'm going to stick my nose out" or "Ok I'll drop down for you, but i'm not going to move!"
Will keep you posted.....

[Zingy]

I've never used a bungee (they do sound quite useful though), but I've found a harbridge very effective. I normally use it really loosely so it doesn't prevent the horse putting its head up, but somehow it does encourage a reasonable outline. You can improvise as well with side reins fitted to the bit and the girth between the front legs. I've also heard of good results from the Pessoa, but it is a bit pricey. You can't use a harbridge when jumping though, but I think that's only the same as pretty much every other schooling aid.

[RachelEvent]

Hello.. I expect you're really not going to enjoy reading my answer, but it's just what I have been through with my horse, so I hope some of it may help you!

First things first, I really dislike the use of draw reins, and I firmly beleive that any horse if schooled slowly and methodically can learn to work on the bit without them. I used them about a year and a half ago, and despite using them very gently and concientiously, it actually caused more problems. The way in which they work, unless *very* carefully handled pretty much enforces the horse work with it's head lowered. If dressage is about softness and willing submission, then draw reins don't really work to the correct ideals! My horse (Ferdie) tried to escape any contact from them, so tucked his nose into the 'correct' position but would start to nod his head to try and evade the feeling... after only 3 short sessions wearing draw reins he had a head-nodding habit which made him appear lame and took around 4 months to cure :( SO, it's not a mistake I'm going to make again. I'm not saying that draw reins are always bad, but I would be confident enough to say that they are never preferable. Suitable enough in the hands of a professional, but even then, I would much prefer a methodical system of schooling which developed the horse in a way to learn to work correctly.

Anyway, I think to understand what you want to acheive, you have to understand what the term 'On the Bit' includes. There is much more to it than the position of the head on the vertical - the position of the head is the RESULT of softness in the back, self carriage, and engagement of the hindquarters. What the majority of us have been guilty for now or in the past, is of trying to get the head position first and getting other things after. A horse that is working with it's head on the vertical, but is not active and soft is not correct, and is not 'on the bit' SO it may help you if you don't actually focus on the position of the head, and if you have a series of goals to work towards, that will help your horse re-develop the correct muscles (it takes a long time to redevelop muscles after two years, she may not have forgotten how to work, she merely can't work correctly YET!)

That's all very well in theory, but actually acheiving an outline through softness and working from the hindquarters is not something which many of us are taught... It's not desperately easy, as the horse works as a whole, and how one part is working directly affects another part, so for example, if the back is not relaxed, then the hindlegs can't step under the horse, and the neck can't be loose and supple. This makes it a bit bewildering as a rider, as we want to fix one part of the horse at a time, yet that isn't entirely possible. What we can do is work on a series of excercises which increasingly develop the whole of the horse.

I like to think of the horse being able to bend in two different planes. There is longitudal bending, ie the rounding of the back and neck muscles into a position of being 'on the bit' and there is latitudal bending, which is the ability of the horse to bend through it's spine to turn with the hind feet following the forefeet. I have always found, that work on the latitudal bending first, and it really helps the longitudal bending. So really work on acheiving true bend. You can start in halt and bend the neck towards your foot, which just helps the horse to learn to follow the feel of your hands.. increasingly work on excercises which involve bending, and more specifically changing the bend (eg. loops, serpentines, figures of eight) try to avoid simply riding around the outside of the school and doing 20m circles - the horse must be interested so keep doing a variety of things .. the polework is a great thing to be doing, and I would continue with that. I quite like to put poles in a fan shape, so you are bending the horse and lifting the stride at the same time. If you go to the narrower point of the fan you can work on a little more collection, and the wider point of the fan encourages a little more lengthening.

Transitions are great, try and work on getting quite snappy responses to your aids. I personally find that direct transitions from halt to trot and back again encourage my horse to step underneath him and move forwards with purpose.

As the level of schooling increases, lateral work becomes very useful to increase flexibility, but there's just far too much for me to write to even start on that yet :p :D

Another thing that is really important, and a hard concept to grasp, is that of the contact. Y'see working on the bit requires a consistant and steady contact to work into - this means that your hands have to stay still (when I say still, they aren't still, they are moving with the horse, and therefore look still!) the hand has to be relaxed, but contrary to what we think, a hand that is softly closed around the reins is kinder than an open hand. The softly closed hand provides something for the horse to work into, whereas the open hand is like a faulty connection - you don't receive all of the messages from your horses mouth, and the ones that you send are likely to be 'louder' and jerkier. The idea of being of the bit, is that the horse is seeking forwards into the contact (something that, unfortunately, draw reins don't encourage) so for the horse to want to seek forward, the contact must always be there and be steady. You can give small squeezes of the fingers to encourage the horse to round further, but these work like a reminder to the horse to soften in his neck and jaw.

Anyway, I'm sorry this post has become very long and rambling.. in summary I guess I would say, I'd prefer to train gadget-free - it's difficult as you have to accept at the beginning that it IS going to take longer, and that it MAY be quite difficult and infuriating at times, but at the end of the day, it will be even more rewarding, and will look far far better. A willing compliant and muscularly developed horse will always be happier and more successful in the long run, than a horse who is taught to simply tuck it's nose in. I could probably write another 10 pages on this, so any more specific questions I'll gladly answer.. sorry for the essay!

Hope it helps

Rachel xx

[kathyt1]

It seems a bit unusual for a horse that has not been ridden for two years?
she has massively over-developed muscles on the underside of her neck .
I am not experienced enough to tell you why this should be, but in my experience these muscles are normally only developed in a poorly ridden horse that goes above the bit, I am surprised that in a horse not ridden for such a long period of time that this should be so? Maybe there is some other physical reason for it that someone more experienced than me could point out?

[chev]

Have to echo RachelEvent I'm afraid. Can't add anything to that except that it's vital to be aware that draw reins and similar gadgets can cause serious damage in a horse that has the correct muscles - in a horse with a neck like you describe forcing (or even strongly encouraging) her to use under developed muscles using training aids can do irreperable damage. I'd take it a lot more slowly to be honest - results achieved quickly using draw reins are not going to do you or her any good long term. Better to aim for the correct outline over the next couple of years, and know she's developing good muscle without damage.

[Dizzy]

I wholehearted agree with the last 3 posts, apart from the fact that it will take the next 2 years to achieve.

You say that she has had her 'own way ' for the past 2 years. But she hasn't been asked to do anything - is just grazing and keeping your self to self 'having your own way??

Its your responsibility as a trainer, to teach her and spark her willingness to learn through praise. Her 2 year 'rest' was'nt her choice.

You must bear in mind that horses do not have any idea of what you want achieve. So though they are not working with you, they are not deliberatly working against you.

How you decide to coordinate the 2 sides is up to you.

Because I hate draw riens infinitley I'm going to pass comment. If your mare has been a field ornament for the past 2 years, draw riens are totally unfair, and I don't think you completely understand the severity that they entail.

[chev]

Sorry Dizzy, didn't mean to imply it would definitely take two years to achieve - just meant that while sometimes correcting muscle development like that can take a while, in my view it's better to do it slowly and without overdoing things, whether it takes two months or two years. It seems that a lot of people use training aids to speed the process up - it might seem that improvement happens faster when using them but in reality since you're still developing largely the wrong muscles, it's not in fact the result you were aiming for. Draw reins and the like tend to develop the big muscles at the centre of the neck, rather than the muscles in the back and along the crest. Gives the impression of a good outline but the horse still isn't using himself properly.

[LindaAd]

I know, lots of people are passionately opposed to draw reins (and to whips, spurs, all sorts of things) but....there are at least two different gadgets called draw reins, and, as with everything else, it all depends how they're used. If you do a search on here, you'll find a lot of discussion, both for and against.

I'm also interested in the muscles under the horse's neck - usually these develop when a horse is being ridden. Or has she been regularly fed from a haynet that's fixed too high up? That's the only other cause I can think of - unless she spends all her time grazing on trees!

[Mehitabel]

there are at least two different gadgets called draw reins,

are there? what's the other one?

[RachelEvent]

As far as I know, there is only one type of draw reins, but you can also get running reins, which are confused with draw reins.

Draw reins run from the girth between the legs, to the bit, to the hands. Running reins run from the girth straps on the saddle, to the bit to the hands.

They are different kinds of reins, but are often confused. Unless you meant something else LindaAD?

As for the underneath muscles, that's puzzling to me too - usually a horse at grass, grazing, shouldn't develop these muscles. As LindaAD mentioned, a haynet fixed too high could help these develop. Possibly they are remnants from the way she was ridden in the past, eg in an outline, but actually not 'on the bit' working through resistance. Draw reins, in fact can encourage these muscles - the horse may push against the force of the draw reins, which will develop the lower muscles.

Rachel xx

[cvb]

Rachael - just to confuse things further, I would divide draw and running reins by only ONE being to the riders hands, and the other goes from between horses legs, to bit, then back to side of girth i.e. is fixed and not determined by rider. Just don't ask me which is which cos I always get confused.

However - WhiteIceGem - I have used a chambon before when lunging a horse with an "upside down" type outline and it is a good way to encourage them down, offering a reward that they themselves trigger. Nowadays I would use a bungee rein instead - same idea but more 'give'.

I know there have been previous posts singing the praises of the Pessoa thingie, but have never tried it myself and it looks far to complex for me - I'm a K.I.S.S. person myself ;)

[Mehitabel]

i'd only known of draw and running reins as rachel described them - same piece of kit, but attached in a different way.
i've heard of the thing you describe, cvb, but not with a specific name.

[cvb]

Originally posted by Es
i'd only known of draw and running reins as rachel described them - same piece of kit, but attached in a different way.
i've heard of the thing you describe, cvb, but not with a specific name.

Its ALL the same piece of kit, but attached either to side or girth and then riders hands, or without going to rider's hands at all.

I'd actually lunge with the "fixed" version as its like a slideable side rein.

[Mehitabel]

how would you fix it to the girth though, being one continuous 'piece of string'? perhaps looped behind run-up stirrups?

i quite like chambons to lunge in as there's no 'inwards' action - the horse can stretch forwards and down as much as it likes, it;s only the hollow upwards movement that's restricted.

[katieB]

Firstly start feeding from the floor, the muscles do sound like the result of a haynet that has been hung too high. Its better for horses to stretch the horses neck down and will avoid any tension in the poll too. Do plenty of lunging, as mentioned the pessoa is expensive but worth it, they dont fix the horses head in a set position and really teach them how to drive themselves forward from behind. You are better off off the horses back while the back muscles are developing so lunging is good for this, also at this stage when you ride and ask your horse to work properly take an eventing (slightly forward) seat.
You mentioned that she enjoys polework, poles are great for strengthening the hindquarters and getting her to step under, start with a few poles on the floor and eventually slightly raise them. Whilst on the lunge arrange the poles in a fan shape (close together at one end, further at other) this will encourage her to lenghten and shorten her strides, a good suppling exercise :)

[cvb]

Originally posted by Es
how would you fix it to the girth though, being one continuous 'piece of string'? perhaps looped behind run-up stirrups?

i quite like chambons to lunge in as there's no 'inwards' action - the horse can stretch forwards and down as much as it likes, it;s only the hollow upwards movement that's restricted.

:D thats the beauty of it. Imagine your long (draw/running) rein with loops at either end. Now take one loop and put the girth/girth straps through it on one side of horse. Take rein forward through bit rings and then down between legs. Pass rein under girth and now back to the other bit ring. Through bit ring and back to girth - where you use other loop to attach to girth at side.

Now you have a '>' shape of rein either side, with the point being at the bit. If the horse reaches down, he can move through an arc allowed by the '>' of rein, as the rein will just slide through the bit. Unlike a side-rein it is not just a straight 'pull' back to the (single) attachment point.

If you're lucky, the rein is the right length. Now as the horse turns, it will move slightly at the between-the-legs girth point, allowing some adjustment side to side.

If the rein doesn't "fit", then you shorten at the middle point, though this will reduce the amount of side-to-side adjustment so you need to get it right !

(This is why I like the bungee rein, as it adjusts between the ears).

[flowergirl]

On the draw rein debate (although I would include anything that straps the horse down )....

The draw reins (as someone else has said) only fix the head into the appearance of a good outline, they do not get the horse working properly from behind. The muscle on a horse with draw reins will develop on the top of the neck rather than on the base of the neck (where it should be). The nuchal ligament which runs from the poll to the wither can be damaged by the use of draw reins and once this damage occurs it will not repair.The are may reasons not to use gadgets, they replace patient and consistent schooling and unfortunatly the quick way is rarely the right way. As someone else has said the pessoa is prob the best as it doesnt strap the horse down, these are much cheaper on www.divoza.com.

I would echo the others in saying feed from the floor etc, as much turnout as possible would be beneficial, this muscle under her neck is prob tight and will make it difficult for her to work properly, so keep the empahsis on long and low without asking for to much roundness at first and once she is comfortable going round keep it only for short periods.

I have attached (or trying to!) a diagram which shows the neggative effects of draw reins or any gadget that straps the horses head into positition.

I am having terrible trouble attaching this diagram but will email to anyone interested, i have a ttached the pessoa to