Working Quarters

[shandy84]

When I lunge my filly she is very hollow, she works like a true arab (the giraffe look) when she does bring her head down her gaits are so much more fluid, yet her back end seems to sit there, so how an I able to engage her quarters and lower her head while she is lunging?

She is only three so I'm not expecting her to be collected at all times, just feel some less hollow work would be better for building up her muscles and also where she always has her neck up she has got a very large amount of muscle under her neck and hardly any on the top.

This is also true when she is ridden, she has had all health checks and it is not pain related, so i feel it is lack of schooling or asking in the worng way.

Could anyone make some suggestions?

[RachelEvent]

Well... lunging, I don't know that much about, as I don't actually do any, any more, although I used to.

I'm not a gadget fan, but I guess you could use something like a bungee or chambon to encourage her to stretch down and round a little more. That depends whether you're happy to use these or not - I'm too stubborn myself, have always said you can acheive results without, so that's the way I went about it :o I'd prefer to use a bungee or even running reins to side reins, as side reins are too fixed for my liking.. they don't allow the head to move up far, they don't allow the head to move down far. They also don't allow for bending to the inside all that easily. Fixed loosley they can cause no damage, but in my experience cause little good either!

So.. minus gadgets, it's not desperately easy to influence their way of going on the lunge (hence part of the reason I gave up lunging) BUT, if you felt she was ready for it, you could try lunging over poles. Poles encourage them to stretch down and round their backs, as they have to a) work out what to do and b) lift and engage their hindlegs to get over the poles.

I'm sure other people will have plenty more ideas.

Rachel xx

[shandy84]

Thankyou, I too am not really a gadget person, would the oles allow her quarters to work a little better do you think?

I don't really want to put her in a bungee or something like that as she is very young, just want to reverse some of the irregular muscles build up she's gained

cheers

[RachelEvent]

Yes, the poles would definitely help with the quarters, as she would need just that little more power to get over them. You'd have to try them to see if they work - the occasional horse still stays hollow as they go over them, but most stretch down and really use their back end.


I find it best to have the poles in a fan shape - although you'd have to introduce it slowly to her one pole at a time. With the more advanced horses you can then raise ends of poles alternately, and that REALLY gets them working.. but that's a little far off for shandy yet :)

Rachel xx

[chev]

Might also be a good idea to try long-reining over poles rather than lunging too. Although lots of people start a horse's education with lunging, it's actually one of the more difficult things for a young, unbalanced horse to master - bending, balancing and going in an outline all at the same time! Watch a horse at liberty, and you'll see that when they turn right they actually bend left naturally. The 'balanced bend' in the direction they're moving that we teach them is not actually a natural thing. So, to try and sum this up before I bore you to sleep, if Shandy is a little unbalanced and not confident with bending in what for her would be the wrong direction on the lunge she'll be far more likely to hollow. It's one way she tries to compensate for feeling wobbly. If you can long-rein over poles with only short periods of bending (walk over a line of poles going straight, small circle at the end, back over poles again for example) she'll start to use her quarters more and also manage bending a bit more easily.

Hope I explained that better than I think I did. Been a long day...

[RachelEvent]

Long reining is also a better simulation of the feel of riding eg. there are two reins with a riders hand at the end of each rein.

Long reining over poles sounds like a great idea!

[Mehitabel]

i prefer to do this kind of thing under saddle - much easier to get the horse working properly as you have your legs there and much more 'on the spot' to influence them.
it's one of the reasons i don't lunge much at that age - unless the lunger is much better at it than i am, it's hard to keep the quality of work up and not get problems like the under-neck muscle and so on and start bad habits. with a more established horse, who's fitter, who's legs are up to it and who understands more what i'm aiming at, a chambon is useful - but i don't think it's particularly beneficial to be putting training aids on a youngster - they don't understand any of the concepts of what we call 'correct work'.

if it were me, i'd bin the lungeing, do some long reining and otherwise just get out on board - 20 minutes a day and just forwards, relaxed and happy, listening to your leg and stepping under herself. then next year, when she's stronger and has some of the ideas of what you're after, start asking for more engagement and holding the outline together more.

[shandy84]

The long reining - Janice H has recently told me you can do one which doesn't entail having a rein behind their bottom, would this be the way I could long rein her as she has a great fear of ropes etc touching her bottom?

Chev it made absolute sense and hopefully, if I can so the long reining independednt of her bottom then I'll crack on and get Janice to teach me

Shandy works under saddle more hollow and giraffe necked than on the lunge Es, if you push her on she'll run, without brakes, if you leave her to giraffe apart from being irritating she is fairly balanced and even in stride, just her bum is left tailiing off behind somewhere.....any ideas on how we could suggest a lower carriage without racing?

I agree there Es, when i lunge she primarily has nothing apart from bridle of caveson on we have introduced side eins but she is not one to go down on them, so IMO no point in using them, she's too young to understand them for them to be of any use.

[RachelEvent]

I haven't worked with real babies like Shandy, but with my horse when he was an unschooled six year old, who worked pretty much as you describe shandy to, apart from being much more unbalanced on running on to his forehand I started like this;

Flexibility and following the feel of the bit had to come first.. I wanted to teach him to stretch down, but had to think a bit laterally to acheive that. When standing still, we worked on flexing his head and neck to the side following the guide of my hand... he learnt to flex his neck to either side supplely, and we also did that work in walk, working on simple school figures and making sure he had correct and soft bend as he went through the turns. I was riding with a definite contact at the time.. I personally think that if you want the horse to work forwards into a contact, there must be a contact there. Some horses prefer a lighter contact, and other horses prefer a slightly stronger one. Ferdie preferred a slightly stronger one... if there is slack in the rein, then the basic connection is then faulty. I'm not sure what views with contacts and young babies are, I'm sure someone more experienced with youngsters would know there. Anyway, he learnt that my hands would stay still, and he developed confidence in them. We then started to work on bending to the side, and slightly downwards at once. So I opened the rein outwards and would give it a little squeeze (as if squeexing water out of a sponge gently) to encourage him to drop his head.. slowly but surely he could lower his head and work in a longer outline - head in front of the vertical, but neck no longer upside-down. Then, by working in this outline he was able to develop more correct muscles. Plenty of bending encourages stretching and flexibilty, and also encourages the hindquarters to engage. Transitions are great also, but are only at their most useful when the horse is not working upside-down anyway - once in this 'baby outline' the transitions then became more useful, as the back was not hollow the hindleg could step under. If you ask for transitions with a hollow back, messy transitions are inevitable as they physically can't step underneath themselves.

It's tricky, as you have to take and release at the exact moments.. I think it taught me a lot, but it took a very long time as I had to learn to become a far better rider to acheive the goal. You need *just* enough pressure to encourage a slightly longer outline, but then be able to release at the right moment to reward and encourage..

Disclaimer though, I'm really not sure what is suitable for babies, the method I describe was being used on a green six yr old.

Rachel xx

[JaniceH]

Hiya :D

Longrein lunging, is where you are still going round in a circle, one line to the bit on the near side, the other rein goes down their off side, round their hindquarters and to you - but still in a circle - I dont know how to do this one.

Longlining is where you have the reins attached to the bit as before, and then through D rings on a roller but you stand directly behind the horse out of kicking distance, and do the same rein movements you would do whilst riding, (or in coachman style if it is a driving horse) you are just not sitting on the horse. It is not recommended to do this without either a schooling or lunge whip incase the horse decides to go backwards into you, as Shandy does not have a liking for whips that may be a problem.

Hope this helps a bit.

[RachelEvent]

That's about right, but you're under no obligation to long rein with a whip. If Shandy is quite forward going it shouldn't be a problem... well, I've only long-reined a few times with my pony and with Ferdie, but haven't used a whip at any point - didn't have any problems myself.

Rachel xx

[shandy84]

I like your symbol Janice ;)

I may be overcoming the whip thing, will have to see, i managed to touch her all over with a hunge whip and although tense we had no running off, maybe I'll try the ridden until this improves and perhaps you could teach me to long rein if you have the time. I would not want to do the longline lungeing then as she would go spare with that (can only desensitise one thing at a time)

Rachel Event that all makes sense, will have a look in my younger horse books and if they say nothing against it will see what we can achieve, I can see why it works as well :)

thanks for your advice everyone

[Mehitabel]

Originally posted by shandy84


Shandy works under saddle more hollow and giraffe necked than on the lunge Es, if you push her on she'll run, without brakes, if you leave her to giraffe apart from being irritating she is fairly balanced and even in stride, just her bum is left tailiing off behind somewhere.....any ideas on how we could suggest a lower carriage without racing?



whether it's under saddle or on the ground, she won't know that this isn't what you want unless you teach her. if you don't know how to teach her this then you really need someone on the ground to help and say 'more now, now back off, now give, now ask a little more'- it's so much a matter of feel and reacting to the individual horse that, especially teaching her for the first time, it's very hard and quite possibly counterproductive to suggest how to do it online. how petal learned compared to how flora learned compared to how caboodle learned and how i'm currently teaching denim have all been so different in terms of how i asked, what their reactions were, how long it took, how hard i used the aids.

[shandy84]

That's fair enough Es, a friend of mine has brought on a few youngsters and works hers to a high level in dressage, so i'll ask gher to come out and see where and when I need to do things as well as point out if i'm doing things wrong

cheers

[chev]

I wouldn't worry too much about the whip when long reining - I never use one, regardless of which horse I'm working. Partly because my brain doesn't cope with that level of multi-tasking (two reins and a whip?!) but partly also because I've generally found that most horses are more likely to jump forwrads than back up into me, even when just learning. If they do back up flicking the end of one rein at them has the desired effect, without having to worry about the whip. Having said all that most people do manage to long rein and hold a whip at the same time.... :rolleyes:

[TBEventer2002]

Having an entire herd of Arabs (and three babies), I can sympathize with you!!! :)

I tried to reschool one of my mares to huntseat from Saddleseat... whoa!!! LOL We stopped fighting about it after about two years or so. ;)

Arabs are bred to carry their heads high. They have a naturally-high set neck, coming right from the withers. Especially as your baby has already developed the common "baby muscle" underneath from not yet learning how to properly carry herself in order to stretch thru the back, it will take some patience.

I, too, prefer to work on this sort of thing from the horse's back, even if it's only for 15 or 20 minutes a day, walking (you can add gaits and time as the baby comes along). However, I would think that long-reining (we call it ground-driving over here) would be beneficial. It is possible to ground-drive from behind the horse, although some people are totally against it (sorry, I was taught you could ground-drive from behind after the horse works well on the circle), so you could possibly eliminate the whole "rope-on-rear" scenario. I personally would start out doing lots of stretching out and down thru the neck until she loosens up thru the back and crest, with lots of rewarding. I really have found that a key component to getting their nose out of the air is a horse that is very compliant and soft to the bit. :)

Unfortunetly, I worked under one Arab-horse-trainer who insisted upon putting the babies right into surcingles and side-reins. Sometimes that worked, sometimes it didn't, I was too young back then to understand why, LOL.

Good luck, and let us know how things go!!!! :D

[shandy84]

Thanks for that TB Eventer. We took her out for a walk in hand on Syunday and when she had a herd of horses run over to her she found her ability to hold her head nicely, so I now know it's physically possible for her I'm a little less tentative in trying it.

Do you think she could also be having an evasion to the bit? It's just she has a french link but doesn't have a lot of room in her mouth, would I be advised to try something else?

[TBEventer2002]

As eager as I am to share my knowledge, I prefer to leave bit questions to the rest of NR for the mere fact that everyone is different and I really don't want to mis-inform you. :)

[Tootsie4U]

Its a whole picture - not pieces.

You can't get a horse soft in the back if he/she's not soft elsewhere.

Its not a matter of lunging or poles or long reining. You gotta fix her resistance, not the performance.

Speaking from someone with a horse somewhat conformationally the same who had very similar problems in the begining. Try the side reins or what have you but you'll still have the same problem when you take them off. Don't try fixing SYMPTOMs, fix the real problem :)

[shandy84]

Tootsie - precisely, I do understand that I need to fix it but can you understand that I'm not 100% positive how to and am hoping for advice generally along this line.

I think i posted that she only ever got lunged a little with side reins and that I had given up with them as it made her resist more, I am not a gadgets person.

Any suggestions on the bit Tootsie or any suggestions as to how to "fix" her resistance?

[Tootsie4U]

I was waiting for you to ask why first, before I just mouthed off techniques - you know "don't give advise unless its asked for". I thought maybe you were looking for a way to change the performance and that I didnt have an answer for ;)

You can't make a horse do anything it doesnt want to do. Side reins will SHOW a horse how you want it to work, but if he doesnt want to work that way, he wont when you take them off.

This sounds silly, but you have to start with mental before you'll get physical. To control the horses feet (or insert any body part), you have to control the mind.

The right bit fits into this as well. If she doesnt like the bit, she'll be stiff in the jaw, stiff in the poll, and maybe even stiff in the neck, shoulders, etc. She can't correctly use the back part of her body if the front is braced against the reins.

But, you've got to start somewhere with the babies. Start with the mildest bit possible, and focus on what her preference is for thickness. Then, teach her to be soft in the mouth. Lots and LOTS and LOTS of "give to the bit" exercises in ALL directions. Start with just giving in the jaw, then ask for her to break at the poll, then through the neck, then the shoulders... then, much later, add giving to the bit while she does lateral work. You're gradually building on the last training block so that way when you're ready to get on her back, she'll already understand to be soft.

It has to start somewhere. Start in the begining with the easy stuff. Asking her to soften as a package (back, engagement, bridle) is putting the proverbial cart before the horse. One step at a time, always building on the last step. :)

You break the training up into pieces so that way when you're both ready, she'll be able to put it all together and work as a whole. All of her needs to be soft, not just parts of her :)

If you need to learn what "give to the bit" exercises are, just ask and I'll be happy to help :)

[shandy84]

Any suggestions you could make Tootsie would be well received, I have to admit, that I have never really had a horse that resists the way she seems to so i feel like a complete novice when dealing with some aspects of her training, any relevant thoughts etc would be really helpful

[Tootsie4U]

As long as you're 110% sure its nothing physical, then the only other choice is that she's resisting mentally. So, you have to break that barrier. Any good NH technique will help you do that. (I was very anti-NH when I first started with horses and wrote it all off as a bunch of loons- until that one fine day... :D)

"Give to the Bit" is a John Lyons technique so everything Im going to say can be reserached farther by having a look around on the net.

You can never EVER get a horse soft enough. Its an exercise that has no limit! I used it in the begining and am using it now as a refresher. It holds such great value and is a great foundation to all training - intermediate or advanced.

Give to the Bit; start simple. If you really want to do it right, start in a halter and lead rope. Clip the rope to the side of the halter and stand by Shandy's side. Gather up the rope and add pressure (less is more in this case!!!) HOLD until she gives. She'll probably only give a centimeter the first few times. Doesn't matter, RELEASE the pressure !IMMEDIATELY! and tell her she's a good girl. Continue until you get immediate gives by her consitently. Make a game out of it, or you'll get bored. Carry a stop watch and see how much she improves.

The biggest mistake people make when doing this is not being patient and/or pulling the horses head thinking its a "give". Nope. The goal is to not PULL your horses head around, SHE has to MOVE HER OWN HEAD! Otherwise known as "yielding mentally".

After she's good at that, use the exact same principles to get her to give in other parts of her body - usually the poll is next followed by the neck.

I promise, if you make this a priorty, you will have the lightest and softest horse on the farm. She will be more attentive to what you're asking of her as well.

Bonfire's back is out right now and as a result he's become very stiff in the neck. Im taking a few weeks to go back to this to re-establish the mental connection. He's been preoccupied with worry that his back hurts so he's resisting. I've got to fix it and I'm starting with give to the bit exercises.

"Free your mind, and the rest will follow" - (thats lyrics to a song) :D:D:D:D:D

[RachelEvent]

All great sense Tootsie, I'm not sure if you read my earlier post re. ridden work, but I think what you describe as 'giving to the bit' an altogether clearer and fuller explanation than mine, was what I was attempting to say in:

Flexibility and following the feel of the bit had to come first.. I wanted to teach him to stretch down, but had to think a bit laterally to acheive that. When standing still, we worked on flexing his head and neck to the side following the guide of my hand... he learnt to flex his neck to either side supplely

I totally agree with the 'whole horse' comments. As riders we want to focus on the exact spot where the physical resistance is haappening, yet that physical resistance will be affecting every other part of the horse - a horse who's back is not relaxed, is therefore not relaxed in his neck, and cannot step underneath itself.

From the initial start of softness, comes the build-up. You don't want a full outline to start with, just a less up-side down shape, which is allowing the hindleg to step under. Reward every try :)

Rachel xx