Inconsistent dressage scoring

[augermoon]

I just wanted to get some feedback on a bad encounter I had at a local dressage competition last night.

I have had Arnie for 7 months now. He is a 9yo Hanoverian x TB who had done nothing before I got him. Last night was hs third outing - the first two had not been too successful. The first was a bit nervy for both him and I and we scraped 48-50% in the two tests that we did, which was deserved as he was too busy gawping at everything else to concentrate.

The second was actually worse as we took his field buddy along with him and he spent the whole time calling and running around with his head in the air. He was truly awful and again we scored around 48%, which was fair.

Well last night, we decided that we meant business and my instructor lunged him when we got there for 40 minutes. It took this long for him to concentrate but finally, he got the hang of it and went beautifully. By the time I got on, he was forward and round and lovely to ride.

I rode my first test and almost cried when I came out because it was so lovely. He was on the bit, forward and obedient througout and gave me a lovely ride. I went straight into my second test which was almost as nice aside for a slight whinny as we were doing free walk. I was absolutely delighted and raring to have antoher go.

However, when the scores came out I was horrified. For the better of the two tests I scored 46% and for the other i got 60%! I have done quite a bit of dressage and am well aware that each judge scores differently but this is ridiculous. With my 46%, I was 9th out of 18, so there were another 8 people below me. I have to admit that the scoring was consistent but the winner had 57% and everyone else was scraping 50% or in the 40's. And this was not a beginners dressage. From what I could see, everyone knew what they were doing and all the horses looked to be fairly well schooled. One poor lady even scored 30%!

At a small Prelim competition, I cannot see how this can be encouraging. I am experienced enough to know to ignore silly marks like this and move on. But for others who are not so experienced, it must be heart-breaking. Luckily, I came 5th in the other test so I wasn't too disheartened.

Just wondered if anyone else had ever encountered anything similar.

Thanks.

[horsemad]

Hi augermoon

Sorry to hear about your experience.

Was it the same judge who judged all three of your tests? In my (very limited!) experience of doing dressage tests, I've noticed a huge variation in the way the judges score tests. I've come away from some tests thinking we didn't do too badly.....only to find out we've got a really low score. But equally, I've done some really awful tests and have been given a decent overall score - which I think I don't deserve! Admittedly I have only ever done dressage at my riding school at a very novice level - there may be more standardisation of scores at 'proper' dressage competitions.

I tend to look at the comments rather than the score - that means more to me because of the variation in scoring. And bless those kind judges who give you positive comments even when you've done a rubbish test !! The most disheartening score sheet I ever got did not have a positive word to say at all, and that upset me more than the low score I got. :mad: Even in a test that I completely messed up, the kind judge that day managed to say something nice - she said I had a 'pretty horse' . OK, its not really the sort of comment you are really looking for in a dressage test, but it was still a positive comment. :D

[Jane.A]

Speaking from the perspective of both competitor, organiser and probationary affil. dressage judge I can appreciate your frustrations. I suspect the organisor will not be inviting that particular judge again either as I have no doubt they will have received an ear bashing. It can however be extrememly difficult to get judges for competitions partic. during the busy summer months. Was the judge listed or on the probationer list do you know? Were their comments valid even if the marking was harsh?

As a competitor myself I tend to value my own assessment of the test more highly than the placing I receive or not. Remember as Wendy Jago says in her book Solo Schooling "a competition is like a snapshot, it can catch you at a glorious or in glorious moment, it is not a fianl truth!"

From a trainee judges point of view the message from British Dressage is consistant and clear; The scales of training are paramount,rythm,suppleness,contact,impulsion,straightness, collection. The first three of these apply to the the prelim and novice levels. Is the horse being produced in such a way as its musclecature can correctly develop to sustain the work at higher levels at a later stage? Is it moving freely forwards in a regular balanced rythm? Does the horse accept and seek the contact partic. in free walk? Is it in front of the rider's leg? Unfortunately very few horses are meeting these criteria at unafilliated level primarily because the message has not yet filtered down. We are told we have a responsibility first and foremost to the horse to encourage correct training, then to the rider. We should be honest but without anihalating the rider's confidence, nor should we over-inflate the marks to give people an unrealistic perception of where they are at and we should avoid two tier judging. Try and combine all that!
I was judging at the weekend. I try to avoid giving below a five (sufficient) if at all possible at unaffiliated level, but with the highly variable standard that then means that some of the more polished competitors should be getting 8's(Good) and 9's (Very good) when in point of fact they are actually worth a 7(fairly good) at most but compared to the others they are stars! If those people then become affiliated they could then be disappointed at the drop in % they receive. Its a thankless task. Try sitting in or writing for a judge and you will, I guarantee, see the class from a whole new perspective.
You now at least know which judge you want to avoid if you wish to keep your ego in tact, but perhaps you should just put it down to the fact that what they saw was not what you felt and leave it at that.

[augermoon]

Hi guys,

thanks so much for your replies. I have just found out that the judge that gave the low marks is actually the organiser of the event and owner of the yard. So no ear-bashing there then:p Just hope I don't have to ride in front of her in the championship.

Jane, it is great to hear the comments from a judge's perspective. I totally agree that the marks need to reflect correct training and way of going. The thing that really gets me is that I should differ so much between the two tests. My instructor (a BD registered judge herself) watched both tests and said they were very similar in standard. She was baffled at how I could be averaging 4's in one test and 6's in another when he way of going was almost identical, if not better in the second test. I had scored the odd 7 and 8 with him in our first outing, when he was horrid for most of the test and when he was nowhere near as settled and forward-going so it just doesn't make sense. With regards to the judge's comments, they were in fact very positive. They said "what a lovely horse, needs to work through more......., but keep going - he's worth it." So that cheered me up a bit.

As you say, I just need to move on. I know I did a good test as does my instructor. I will move onward and upwards and see what the next person has to say.

Thanks again both of you.

[Demson]

Hi There

Bit background first....

I to am a trainee Judge, I have been training for two years, attend training days and seminars, sit in with top Judges, Practice Judge and do loads of writing as well as Judging Unaffiliated Classes.

I have done my Mock exam and got a lot of good comments back. I am taking my exam this Sept/Oct to become a listed Judge.


I was Judging during the week and it was Novice 29. Now this is not an easy test to learn or ride with plenty of circles and transistions. Throughout the test all I wished for was someone I could award a 7 (fairly Good) mark to, but I could not get out of the 5's and 6's and even had to award some 4's.

Basically the majority of riders should have been in something like Prelim 7 or 10 as the tests being rode in front of me were inadequate.
I always strive to mark according to the level of the test and what the test requires. I won't give a 7 to encourage if the movement did not warrant a 7. But then I don't expect (In prelim) to see the horse correctly on the bit and rounded as the horse is just at an early stage of it's training.

Sometimes I can Judge and the standard is terrible, other days it is well mixed and then again on other days the standards are amazing.

A good tip is try and get someone to video tape the test that you do, that way if you disagree with the marks and comments watch the video. You may be right but again you may see something you didn't realise you were doing but the test has highlighted it.

I love Judging and as much as I would love to give high markd all the time, I just can't if the movements are not there.

However I do agree positive comments should appear as well as faults.

[Ipsa]

I think 46% sounds like a very harsh mark for your test if it was as described (which I'm sure it was:) )
In the dressage group I belong to the senior judges are always wanting feedback about inconsistencies in judging and encourage us to give them our dressage sheets or the results of the class so they can make sure consistency is maintained. There has also been more of a move at some competitions I have been to to have the more highly qualified judges judging the lower level tests. My marks tend to improve with the senior judges and I now have a few judges who I think mark fairly consistently and a couple of judges I try to avoid as they don't seem to like my horse.
I have been in classes where there are two judges and for some people's tests there is a five mark different and others there is a 40 mark difference!
I think some judges have trouble relating the picture to a mark and frequently at judges seminars I have been to there has been variations betwwen 4 and 8 from the judges for one movement which they have all seen from the same angle and the people taking the clinics are constantly saying to these low marking judges that if it's good give it an 8 and there are so many good horses in the lower levels that they shouldn't be afraid of giving 8's and 9's and even 10 if they can't see any room for improvement. Too often some judges see one minor fault for a split second so they automatically give a 5 when the rest of the movement is very good and it should still be worth a 6 or 7.
There are two very good videos on judging that are quite recent called 'Through the Judges Eyes with Stephen Clarke' which are very helpful for judges and riders alike. You can get them from Equestrian Vision.
At the end of the day you have to ride for yourself and try to improve each time. I still love going out and giving it a go especially if I have friends competing.