starvation paddocks and the like

[notpoodle]

because one of the little shetlands at the yard has come down with suspected laminitis (he'd only been in the 'big' field for a week or so and works as a school pony), i have been asked to stick angel in the 'fat field' with the other natives just in case. this 'fat field' is hardly a 'starvation paddock' in the literal sense. as it does have some grass in it, BUT the grass in there is quite short and patchy in places.

angel is a little on the tubby side still (she has lost some of the fat since i got her though!), but lives off grass and nothing else at the moment (she's only ever been just on grass before and she seems in good condition coatwise etc.). however, now i'm concerned that the grass in this 'fat field' won't be enough for her :rolleyes: she seemed overly keen on something to eat today, as she was sort of frisking me for treats (which she normally doesn't do, and she only gets them when she's done something good ie. not all the time and for no reason).

what to do?

julia
x

[Drummers mum]

Up to you really I think. Drummer lives on NOTHING! patchy grass no grass he still gets fat!

Give it a week maybe and see how she goes but if she is asking for food and showing weight loss then get her back out with the others. Just because she is a pony doesn't mean laminitis will hit her, horses get it too!

[notpoodle]

i know. the manager just suggested it because she is a little tubby :rolleyes: she's been in the fat field before and seemed fine, by now there's obviously less grass in it though because it has been in use.

mind you, in her previous home, she did not have a laminitis regime at all and was on lush grass most of the time, and she has never had laminitis. hmm ...

i'll leave her in fat field and see how it goes i think! it's not like she does very hard work or anything either.

julia
x

[Cobby]

If she's not gaining weight in the big field, I'd rather leave her there. Mine are on restricted grazing as Pebs began to look hippo like:eek: I move the electric fence up every few weeks to give them a bit more grass when their bit of the field starts looking too bare.
The fatties in the starvation paddock get last years hay when theres not enough grass to keep them happy, it fills them up but doesn't put the weight on.

[Yann]

They should always have something to eat, even if it's just a bit of hay. You could give her a bucket of Happy Hoof or similar, especially after work as a reward, and maybe some vitamins. It's nutrionally similar to hay but tastes interesting and will make her happy without risking putting any additional wieght on.

[wildponies]

Yann - tastes interesting does it?! :D Have you tried it or was that an educated guess?! :rolleyes:

[Yann]

Not personally, but it smells nice, and 8/10 small exmoor crosses get very excited when it's fed to them:)

[artemis]

Speaking from experience, prevention is better than cure with laminitis!

[Big Ears]

I have one with laminitis here - we have three donkeys and two cobs so all five would be prime candidates but only one cob has come down with it.

The other four are on grass with electric fencing so they have about 1 acre out of 2.75 total and I move the electric fence every couple of weeks to open up a new stretch of grass.

The one with laminitis is on the sand school and now on a very small paddock with some grass - I feed her hay morning and early afternoon - just a section, and they all come in at night so she has a haynet then.

I have tried one of those grazing muzzles and once we got it adjusted it seemed to work vry well, as it meant that she had to work harder to find the grass and couldn't gulp it down in huge portions. when she is given the all clear to go out with the others, I intend to use the grazing mask all the time, so she and the other cob can live out again, but she won't be able to eat as freely.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason why some horses get it. She was much fatter last year when she arrived but was ok and this year, when she is thinner and fitter from work she goes down with it. Our vet says it has been a bad year and they have had to put down many this year. Sadly the bigger horses like our cob find it harder to recover.

[notpoodle]

there is some grass in the fat field left (the field is sort of coevered in grass, some of it patchy, most of it quite short, bits of it not so short), just not as much as in the big one (which has tons of grass and most of it is quite long ...). the trouble with a grazing muzzle thing is that i'm at work all day so couldn't take it off and i don't really want her to be wearing it all day ... esp. seeing she's already wearing the fly rug and a flymask ...

will leave her in fat field and see how it goes.

julia
x

[Hels]

I wouldn't give your pony a bucket of Happy Hoof - too many calories I'd have thought. The lowest energy Chaff you can find would be better (e.g. Dengie Good Doer) with some vits and minerals.

[Jakes Mum]

as artemis says, with laminitis prevention is better than cure, and you also have to consider the extra strain, wear and tear on joints caused by carrying excess weight too.
So, if I was you, I would leave your pony in the 'starvation' area, and offer her some hay and most importantly, as Hels says, make sure she has a broad spectrum supplement, which can be fed in a scoop of low energy high fibre chaff, such as Dengie Good-Doer, or Spillers do the vitamins in a biscuit which you can feed by hand as a treat.

[notpoodle]

has anyone tried these spillers biscuit vitamin things? any good? they sound ideal for our situation with regards to vitamins.

i'll see how she gets on and offer hay if she starts to lose weight/seems unhappy/hungry

julia
x

[Jakes Mum]

Yes, I use the Spillers Equivite supplement (powder) through the winter in Jakes chaff, and the vitamin biscuits through the summer when he normally doesn't get any feed other than hay.
They are excellent as you can just feed them by hand and the horse thinks he is getting a treat. The quantity you feed ranges between 5 - 10 biscuits / day depending on the size of your horse/pony and what other feed he gets. They cost approx £14/tub which will last about 1-2 months. They are called Spillers Equivite Pasture Plus.

[notpoodle]

thanks for the info :) i'll take a detour to the tackshop tomorrow and get her some of those. she has never had any supplements in the past, just grass and hay (in her previous home), but i'm sure she could do with some nutrients and stuff!

julia
x

[Yann]

Was curious about the comment regarding Happy Hoof as opposed to Good Doer, it would appear that the digestible energy figure for Happy Hoof is 8.8MJ/kg as against 7 for Good Doer. However in the quantities it's likely to actually get fed I can't see it making much difference in practice.

[Bebe]

Yann

Happy Hoof has a higher oil content, so technically not as good for fatties & laminitics. Dengie don't publish starch levels so can't compare those and they are important where laminitis is a concern, as are sugar levels and neither company publish those.

I suppose that if HH has pellets in it (I believe it's a sort of mix/chaff mixture?) then it's probably heavier than Good Doer so you could possibly end up feeding quite a lot more than is first thought which may impact calorie content. It's hard to feed a lot of G Doer as it weighs so little.

Just some thoughts, have never used HH myself so no idea if any are relevant!

Amanda

[artemis]

Do the vitamin biscuits have any sugar in them? Pony has cushings as well as being laminitic & is stable at the moment, so don't want to upset his diet. I'm just trying to make life more interesting for him!

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Yann
They should always have something to eat, even if it's just a bit of hay. You could give her a bucket of Happy Hoof or similar, especially after work as a reward, and maybe some vitamins. It's nutrionally similar to hay but tastes interesting and will make her happy without risking putting any additional wieght on.

I would agree with Yann here and if like mine she doesn't like Happy hoof then there is another feed called 'Slim & Healthy' by Allen and Paige.

I would stick to the smaller paddock and feed a little extra if need be. Kito is not in the big field but is fed a little extra as he is now not with the other horses in the starvation paddock where he was getting hay everynight. I brought him back onto the yard to keep Copper company and as he is only allowed in the starvation paddock every other day so does not need extra which means Kito does not get it now until he comes in at night.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Yann
Was curious about the comment regarding Happy Hoof as opposed to Good Doer, it would appear that the digestible energy figure for Happy Hoof is 8.8MJ/kg as against 7 for Good Doer.

Looks like I'll have to check this with Slim and Healthy

[notpoodle]

thanks for the advice guys :)

miriam's post gave me the idea that maybe i alternate between fat field and normal field, ie. two days fat field, two days normal field. would that be possible or would that be too confusing for her (and her tummy!)?

julia
x

[Miriam]

It would not be confusing at all but get her weight down first. it took me two years to get Rhi to a sensible weight. We have to do it for lack of room too :( Believe me shetlands do not need a lot of grass ;)

[notpoodle]

she's not a shetland, she's an exmoor :) supposedly they get fat just by the sight of a blade of grass ...

[Miriam]

Sorry misread. Going batty ;) Yep exmoors are pretty good doers too. I have alovely piccie of my son having an argument with an exmoor as he wanted it to go one way and the exmoor had other ideas :rolleyes:

[notpoodle]

*lol* that sounds familiar :D ... 'now we are going to take a left into the indoor school, my dear ...' .... 'no we won't! i want to take a right, and i will i will i will ...' ... 'no you won't! we're going in now' .... 'that's what you think ... look! i am now doing a neat spinning motion and we're back to ....the right!' .... etc. :D

julia
x

(she's usually easily convinced to do as she's told though!)

[Miriam]

Well it was something like that except it finished with 'I'm now up this little bank and I'm going to have a wee' :D Called the horse Pippin to and he was a bugger to bring in. he used to barge everywhere. He had no manners and in the end people refused to handle him for his owner

[notpoodle]

oh dear :) well, at least angel certainly does not barge, is easy to bring in and handle .... *phew* she can be quite opinionated about what she reckons should be the course of action though :)

julia
x

[Miriam]

That sounds right

[Zingy]

Can you alternate days and nights? I'd be tempted to try for nights in the normal field (fructan levels lower at nights so it's a better time to graze potential laminitics), and days in the fat field. Also has the bonus that if you're riding in an evening they're a little bit deflated by the time you get there!

[notpoodle]

i cant alternate day and nights, because i have a fulltime job and it would be impossible for me to move her around in the mornings. if i asked people at the yard to do that for me, i'd get charge £5 a go which would double my livery bill ....

julia
x

[Yann]

There's always the bucket / grazing muzzle option too?

[notpoodle]

how do these muzzles work? can they still eat with them? sorry i havent got a clue .... thing is, chances are she'll take the contraption off when she's rubbing herself sweet-itch wise, and im worried she might get stuck in/with the muzzle somewhere. how safe are these things?!

[Yann]

They can still eat, but it's more difficult and their intake of grass is greatly reduced. You have to use most of them with a headcollar, which can be problematic (rubbing, hazards etc.). I've only got direct experience of little Gem and her bucket, but I know others on here use them, it might be worth doing a search through the archive or putting up a new thread if you're interested. The main thing is that they can stay with their pals and still trickle feed.

[notpoodle]

most of her pals are in the fat field ...

anything with a headcollar isnt an option really, because she scratches her head with her hind feet .... she almost got her hoof stuck in the bridle today. i was just taking my hat off and in that split second she started scratching ...

julia
x

[notpoodle]

have doublechecked with the manager, most of the other horses in that field don't get any extra feed either and they're fine :) i have managed to get hold of these spillers vitamin biscuit things though, so she'll get those from now on :)

julia
x

[H & Bailey]

my fields are almost starvation paddocks at the moment and they are still getting fat but when theyve eaten right down they do tend to start pushing and shoving at fencing so i tend to hang a hay net or 2 up to keep them busy.
Mine also get a small token feed each morning so i can check and groom them,i use dengi hi fi lite and a small handful of pony nuts

[Big Ears]

The grazing muzzles allow them to eat, but they have to pull the grass through the slots in the muzzle which means they can't take huge grabs of grass and it makes them work harder. I use mine on a leather headcollar which would break or you could use on of the quick/release/breakaway ones.

I think it also needs to be used on grass that isn't aboslultely short as the grass has to poke through the slots, so if it is really really billiard table lenght it may not work.

It took Rosie about an hour to figure it out then she got her head down and got on with it. She did't seem to mind. At least it meant she was out and about more.

[Miriam]

One of the girls on my yard bought a muzzle for her horse and he kept pulling it off :eek: Typical Paddy

[artemis]

I have often thought about trying a grazing muzzle, but have never risked it. My shetland is an escape artist.

[Big Ears]

To be fair, I would have thought Rosie would also have got rid of it, but she wore it successfully once she worked out that she could still manage to eat - the look on her face when it was put on was priceless.

I tried her on a patch of new grass and poked the grass through the slotss till she got the idea, a bit like sucking spaghetti! She finally realised she had to press it onto the ground and voila there would be grass shoots to nibble.

They make a small size which might suit a houdini shetland....

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Big Ears
To be fair, I would have thought Rosie would also have got rid of it, but she wore it successfully once she worked out that she could still manage to eat - the look on her face when it was put on was priceless.

I tried her on a patch of new grass and poked the grass through the slotss till she got the idea, a bit like sucking spaghetti! She finally realised she had to press it onto the ground and voila there would be grass shoots to nibble.

They make a small size which might suit a houdini shetland....

We tried that with Paddy. It was so funny. But he still never really got the hang of it :D

[artemis]

It's his talent for escaping that worries me. I cannot keep a headcollar on him. He has been known to "lose " his bridle!:D
I doubt whether a muzzle would last more than 2 mins! It would be an expensive experiment.

[nat17]

Just to add to the HH v Good Doer, Good doer is higher in Sugar than Happy Hoof, and thats why The Laminitis trust recommends Denige Hi-fi Lite for laminitcs rather than good doer.

I mix the two! Happy hoof and Good doer inequal amounts!;)

[LindaAd]

There's often more grass than you think in these scrappy fields. I remember the vet once coming to see a horse, and saying: Well, you look at this field and think there's no grass, but that's because the grass is all [pointing at a fairly rounded horse belly] in there!

I think I'd be inclined not to assume the horse wasn't getting enough to eat until it began to show clear signs of losing weight. All ours are good doers, and get nothing except grass and hay unless they're working really hard.

[Miriam]

The problem we have our way is that because ther is little grass in our paddock (especially where Rhi and Paddy are ) people give them food or even their cut grass (like thye did on Friday)