Working in an outline??

[aliw]

What is it???

[IrisSilverMoon]

working in an outline is something like this...

http://www.eurodressage.com/images/04zwolle_wiebusch.jpg


the horses head is tucked, its not bracing against the riders hand, its not too low or too high.

pretty uch working with the horses head relaxed and on the bit.

[aliw]

Thank you:)

[Yann]

ISM, that horse looks a bit overbent to me:D

It's not just about head postion, the horse also steps under more with its hindlegs and lifts its back (actually using its stomach muscles), and transfers more of its weight to the hindquarters.

It's quite a complicated subject, but the overall picture should be one of lightness and grace.

[Gemma16]

Echo Yann.

The head is the last part really to come when working corectly. It about working with the back muscles and hindquarters.

Lots ofhorses work in a false outline with just there heads pulled in. The poll should be the highest point, not the crest of the neck and your horse should be tracking up and be light in the hand. A test for this is to give and re-take your rein contact and see if the horse keeps the outline. If not then its not truely working in a proper outline.

Hope this helps. For pictures I'd look on some dressage sites etc.

[Willingbe]

It's useful to read the "objects and general principles" of the FEI and BD dressage rules. They explain what is expected from the gaits and what is expected by "on the bit". Follow this link

http://www.britishdressage.org/British%20Dressage%20-%20Rule%20Book%202004.pdf

for the BD rules.

Also, the outline will change appropriate to the horses stage of development, a novice horse is not expected to have the outline shown in the pictures posted above but should be longer and lower.

[Yann]

Originally posted by Gemma16
A test for this is to give and re-take your rein contact and see if the horse keeps the outline. If not then its not truely working in a proper outline.

Isn't that self carriage you're talking about? An advanced horse will do this but a lot of horses will just poke their noses half the time given the opportunity.

It is the ideal, but I don't think it's the case that a horse isn't in an outline because it's not in self carriage is it? Interesting:)

[Lgd]

Originally posted by Yann
Isn't that self carriage you're talking about? An advanced horse will do this but a lot of horses will just poke their noses half the time given the opportunity.

It is the ideal, but I don't think it's the case that a horse isn't in an outline because it's not in self carriage is it? Interesting:)

From a purist POV if a horse is not in true self-carriage he cannot be in a correct outline. The give and retake of the reins is performed in Novice dressage tests and I would certainly use it a 'check point' in my training of any horse.

It also important to emphasise that the only time the horse's face must be at the vertical is in piaffe. In all other work it should really be slightly in front of the vertical.

The degree of engagement depends on the level of training but the basics must always remain the same and follow the scales of training - rhythm, balance, suppleness, connection, impulsion, straightness and collection

On outline in a more novice horse can be seen here

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=779

This is a photo of my younger mare taken about 18 months ago when she was competing at Elementary level and working at about Medium level at home. The angle of the photo is not brilliant so you can't see the angle of the face properly but shows the hind leg stepping under nicely, working over a softly swinging back, neck forwards and the whole picture is relaxed and harmonius. She certainly gives the impression that if the contact is released that the picture will not change. I don't have any more recent photos of her - she is now working up two levels from this and a similar photo would now show more sit and an impression of her moving more uphill with the poll and the neck in a higher carriage and more true collection in the step.

[Yann]

Thanks for that, it makes sense:)

[Nicole5310]

Hi i am going to offer my view as im in New Zealand and started my baby horse three years ago and now hes doing very well at elementary (3rd) level.

Outline has a lot to do with contact. And as i have just come in from my road ride i was thinking about what has been posted on this thread previously. Your contact should be firm and spongy an outline is indeed with the horse using his back and working "through." I agree with what the others have said however when you reach your hands forward the horse should stay round but reach forward with your hands. If it just keeps its head where its is and your rein loops then it wasnt using its hindquarters. It is all a gradual progression though and through three years schooling only now i am really starting to get that powerful uphill feeling where the horse takes more weight on its hindquaters and lightens the forhand.

[kedwards]

Being fairly new to the dressage side of things, I'm a bit confused by terminology here and would appreciate some help. Is "outline" like "frame," something that is dependent upon gait and goals? In other words, there isn't one ideal "outline" but a range that is dependent upon a horse's level of training and the gait in question. For example, is the "outline" for a collected gait the same as the "outline" for an extended gait or a working gait? In other words, if someone asks about "working in a correct outline," does it beg the question, "for what?"

[Bay Mare]

Yes, that's about it!

An advanced horse has a different outline to a novice horse, this is to be expected and is taken into account depending on the level of test that you ride.

There is also a difference in outline in the different paces within the gait. The outline for extended canter, for example, isn't as compact as in collected canter, in extended it is permissible for the head to be carried more forward from the vertical than in collected. The horse should still be 'on the bit' though, still working through the back end and still accepting the bit.

Of course I couldn't find any pics to illustrate! It's amazing how many of them are BEHIND the vertical :rolleyes:

[Bay Mare]

PICS

Extended Trot

http://www.dressageworld.de/dressurgeschichte/4/bilder/abb16.jpg

Collected Trot

http://www.evonlyequestrian.com/sales/graphics/pride_collected.jpg

Not the best pics in the world ..... sorry!

[aliw]

Can anyone tell me how to get the horse working in an outline? Or is it too complicated to explain here?

[Tootsie4U]

The head placement *is* an indicator of a horse working in an outline. It is the result of all things working correctly. The rider can also fiddle with the reins to get the horse to look like that, but most cases it is false. Its a small piece of the pie.

I dont know of any horse who can use its back end with its head up in the air. So, it is true to say that head placement = outline. You just cannot generalize and divide the term "outline" into head, neck, poll, back, or haunches... its everything working together.

A horse has to develop the correct muscles to work like this. It takes alot of back and haunches muscles. It takes balance from both the horse AND rider. Without these as your foundation, you theoretically can't get a correct outline. THis is what they mean when they say "horse-and-rider" - meaning a parternship.

On a horse who has good balance and muscle, it helps to think "toothpaste tube" when working for an outline. You have to push the bottom of the tube to get the toothpaste out. So, you have to think about riding the back of the horse where all the forward energy comes from. You also have to have the cap on your toothpaste tube or it will all go out the other end. This becomes your level of "collection". So in all, you're pushing to create the energy while containing it. The end result is flexion in the hock, an upwards lift of the chest area where the horse takes most of its weight on the hind end, a rounded back, a soft neck, a break in the poll, and having the horse on the verticle.

[toohorsemad]

This thread is bery interesting! As I would ove to get vic into true outline but he does not really like flatwork so I don't think it will happen!!! :rolleyes:

[Shiny McShine]

Thought I might just add that every horse works in an outline, but that the outline can be a good one or a bad one. For example a horse that braces its back and lifts it's head is said to go with a hollow outline. The pictures that have been put up here mostly show quite nice, but advanced dressage outlines. If you are on a novice horse your outline is likely to look a little different from some of those pictures.

Also remember that the outline includes the way the topline is rounded from poll to tail and the muscles of the hindleg through an active stride (impulsion). It can also include the length of the frame, which varies with experience and the activity you're involved in as BayMare suggested.

Alternatively you can have a good outline in something completely different, like reining but it will again look a lot different. The point of a good outline is mainly that it is effective, i.e. it helps the horse to carry weight and perform better. For any riding horse this will involve first coiling the loins, using and rounding the muscles of the back and hindlegs, FOLLOWED by a rounding in the neck and true self carraige.

[Styric]

These pictures aren't perfect, but they kind of show the progression through the different stages.

http://www.delamereforestridingclub.co.uk/photos/current/rease1.jpg
http://styric.no-ip.org/images/practiceride/pictures/IMGP0427.JPG
http://www.bluesaddle.co.uk/horses/20050312194030.jpg

[Styric]

http://www.charlotfarm.com/images/Rio%20nice%20dressage%20trot.jpg
http://www.waterburydressage.com/images/kate_c.jpg
http://www.fairwindfarm.com/images/donnerschlagstrut.jpg

And before you say you need a dressage horse to do it, check these out:

http://www.klassisk-ridkonst.com/images/picture/odin-piaffe.homepage.jpg http://www.sycamoretrails.com/Images/Dressage%20Zebra.jpg

[toohorsemad]

My instuctor said that my horse came into an outline for a few strides! He is only 6 and is coming back into work, is this good or was it false? I could beleive it if it was false :confused: but he is surpising me lately with his improvement! I am not sure if its a one off thing because he is not fond of flatwork really! He loves jumping but it has to be done!

[aliw]

...

[MadWoman]

Can I disagree with whoever said that to work in an outline you need to have a firm contact? Classically, you should have a light but consistent contact, your hands and seat defining the size of frame the horse should stretch into - a firm contact would pull the head in falsely and cause tension in the jaw, as is seen in many dressage horses these days. I am lucky enough to have a very good classically trained instructor who has shown me that a correct outline is achieved through the seat, with a light contact just telling the horse what shape outline you would like (working, long and low etc - Harriet is still very green so no collection yet!).

[jenren!!]

Yes, but the energy which has been produced from the back legs will simply escape through the front end if you have a light contact. You need to keep a contact in order to contain the energy. 'pull her together' is a good quote to repeat to yourself. You need to encourage your horse to bring their hindlegs underneath them, but at the same time encouraging the front end in, if you get me. This is why achieving 'on the bit' and hindquarter engagement work with each other. You cant get one without the other. You can try mostivating the hindquarters but the energy will not be kept if your horses nose is in the air. Neither will the head come round if your horse is not using their back end correctly. If it does, then this is a false outline. There is only one feeling for outline. I know when my horse is working correctly, because when she comes down, i can feel the power underneath her, and vice-versa. It either doesnt come at all, or all at once. It is therefore vital to use exercises which will encourage both. Going back to the contact, this doesnt mean to say you should hold them as tight as possible, but as long as you can feel your horse's mouth. This is just from personal experience by the way, correct me if im wrong, but obviously you will all have your opinions.

X jenny X

[MadWoman]

Yes, you do need to maintain a contact to contain the energy and show the horse the frame you wish it to stretch into, but it should be light, not firm, otherwise you run the risk of tension in the mouth (leading to the use of a flash) and the crest, not the poll, being the highest part of the neck. The horse should be asked fo the outline, not forced into it with a firm contact. It takes much longer to train but gives you much better result in the long run.

Perhaps this is one of the differences between classical and 'competition' dressage.

Having re-read your post just before posting this, I think perhaps you misinterpreted my 'light' contact. When I say light, I do mean, of course, that there is a contact and you can feel the horse's mouth and vice versa - you can't have a contact on a loose rein! One often hears of dressage riders being told to do weights to strengthen their arms in order to get sufficient contact - that is definitely wrong!