Porcipine game- not good at yielding- what to do?

[KarinUS]

When I was trying to get DJ started on Parelli I gave up because it seemed pointless. I gently touch him with one finger and he moves over. I lift my hand and show him my palm and he backs, etc. You he is light you never know what a big horse he is.

We started Missy and it's like trying to push a concrete block around. This is weird because she is so sensitive under saddle. Doing the porcupine game with DJ and then with Missy is like day and night. We go through teh 4 stages but as the book says: "your horse is not yielding".

Should we do something different? Or just repeat the 4 stages?

[MelanieD]

If she isn't yielding then I think the simplest thing to try is a stronger phase 4. Is she leaning in to the pressure (I think parelli calls this opposition reflex?) or just ignoring you? My horse used to lean in to pressure, my equivalent of phase 4 when I was teaching her to move from pressure was my elbow poked into her butt, more strength than I could manage from a hand! Now she will move over from one finger pressed lightly on her backside. I think that phase 4 is whatever gets a response, and isn't always pleasant so maybe the phase 4 you are using isn't a strong enough phase 4, as what makes a phase 4 depends on how the horse responds. So phase 4 for fatty at first would have been my elbow, phase 4 now would be a hard poke with one finger for ignoring the polite touch that would have come before it. I don't really do parelli (some of the stuff I've done with fatty is similar, and I've read a little bit about parelli) so someone who actually does it properly may be able to give a slightly more informed answer!

[galadriel]

Sorry, haven't read the precise description you're referring to. So I don't know: does it recommend that you use a solid pressure? Or a give-and-take one? I've had a lot of success with give-and-take to teach horses to move away from the pressure; horse instinct is to lean into a solid pressure. Once they figure it out, you only have to use one light touch and whatever voice command to let them know that you want them to move.

[RachelEvent]

Basically, as far as I am aware from various Parelli resources, Phase four is the pressure at which the horse always responds.

So, that means that phase four may be different for different horses.

Therefore, you haven't actually reached missy's phase four yet - you have to push to the point where you get a reaction (however slight) ... the idea is, that while rather unpleasant to have to 'go there' once it's happened a few times, they learn to notice the lighter pressures and respond to those in the knowledge that you will push as hard as that if needs be.

Rachel xx

[Yann]

In other words you aren't hitting her hard enough;)

[RachelEvent]

In other words you aren't hitting her hard enough

Unfortunately, and sadly, yes - if you follow the exact Parelli principles.

And I'm still not decided whether it's "right" or not, but the logic is in place, and it seems to be highly successful. It is not considered outright violence by the horse, because they have had such sufficient, and gradually increasing warning.. they are at liberty to respond at any point.

Still makes me feel like an evil human though :(

Rachel xx

[Esther.D]

I have a problem with some applications of Parelli phase 4 - I think it can be used as a justification for 'hitting harder'. I am a great fan of the principles generally but hesitate over the application of that one. I will never go beyond what I would have done pre-Parelli..but I try to up my unpleasantness rather than my force. eg. flapping the rope, using my voice and my body to indicate my displeasure. I am extremely forceful with my voice and body language but my physical contact never exceeds levels I am comfortable with.

With Missy I would make life generally unpleasant until she moves over...I used give and take with Rupert and growling and shaking the rope at him...not strictly Parelli recommended for that exercise but they worked.

I work on the principle that it all needs to be applied with a dose of common sense........I don;t believe in being voilent with a horse but they also have to play by my rules and I don't believe in spoiling them either. I have always set boundaries and this is the way I interpret Parelli

[KarinUS]

that means that phase four may be different for different horses.
I see. Actually she isn't completely unmovable. Maybe it's just that I am used to DJ who responds to a phase 1 and Missy is still taking a phase 4 to move.

Parelli explains the Porcupine game as follows:
It is apploed with a steady feel , not intermittend poking. The steady pressure starts soft and slowly increases until the horse responds.
When the horse moves away, the steady pressure is instantly released.
This pressure is applied in four phases- press the hair, then the skin, then the muscle, then the bone!
Each phase gets stronger and there is no release until the horse responds at least with a try.
Reward the slightest try with instant release, rubbing and a smile (back to Friendly Game- Missy loves the Friendly Game)
Keys to porcupine game: concentrated look, steady pressure, use four phases.

On a more positive note Missy spooked in the paddock area today and ran to Ray for safety. :)
It always made me feel good that DJ runs to me when he gets scared. It was nice to see that Missy ran to Ray when she got spooked. I know it made him feel very good.

[Bebe]

I don't understand the reasoning behind steady pressure. If you apply steady pressure to an uneducated horse, they'll lean right back against you with equal pressure to that which you're applying.

I'd give and release pressure until she gets the general idea to begin with. Horses are much more likely to respond to intermittent pressure & release to begin with, they can't lean on it and it tends to annoy them if you keep it up for long enough thereby getting you a response and showing them the way forwards.

[virtuallyhorses]

The idea with the steady pressure is exactly the same as you use with an uneducated horse with the bit or the leg - you release when there is any response - that's how they learn NOT to lean on the pressure. It's pretty much the whole point of the porcupine game (intermittent pressure is used in other games and I certainly understand your point) so if you swap to intermittent pressure you've admitted defeat and are no longer playing.

The problem with intermittent pressure - what are they learning? That when I get poked I should 'at some vague point' move away... so is that when you first apply the pressure, or on the second, fourth, 30th time you apply the pressure? since you are releasing the pressure (the release being the signal for 'good you've done what I want) how does the horse know when it's done what's required? Now apply that logic to your riding aids... squeeze "hmmn, she's probably asking me to move away" oh but she's not , squeeze\release , tap\release kick! "oh I guess I'll move now" .... not really conducive to the horse learning to move on a light aid or first time :)

KarinUS - it is harder to make the adjustment to other horses sometimes - but make sure that you are not missing her tries AND that at the other end of the scale she is not getting away with having you on. :) I've just worked a first session with a friends horse. He tested me for several minutes and has some things that he resists much more than others but if you show committment he respects you, becomes very content (he does the big sigh and goes very soft in the face) and is soon at a very light touch.

If this horse is bonded to Ray - how does he do with playing this game with her? Maybe she's playing the "other mare" game with you by steadfastly ignoring your pressure ;) "Is that the best you got sissy?" :D ;) Are there particular yeilds that are a problem or all equally?

[KarinUS]

If this horse is bonded to Ray - how does he do with playing this game with her? Maybe she's playing the "other mare" game with you by steadfastly ignoring your pressure "Is that the best you got sissy?" Are there particular yeilds that are a problem or all equally?

I am the "other mare" ;) but at least I think I am a mare of higher hierarchy. She LOVES to be with Ray but generally she follows my directions better be it ridden or on the ground.
Only recently have I been working with her more. Until then she was handled mostly by Ray. And only since his fall last week has he introduced Parelli games to her so we are not very far at all.
We thought the games would a) keep him safely on the ground while b) allowing him to spend his time off well by getting to know her better.

So she is only starting! I am not too worried (yet). That was a good explanation of the steady pressure concept by the way! Thanks :)

[Bebe]

But where do you draw the line at pressure vs force? If you're having to raise the bar to a high level to get any kind of response, surely you're better off looking for another way to get the message across (I do understand constant vs intermittent pressure and that you need to apply constant pressure until you get a release - in that sense all aids are constant as the release only comes when the desired behaviour is performed).

But, if the constant pressure isn't getting you anywhere, then what? If Parelli doesn't give you any other options within it's programme and you're not encouraged to follow other avenues to teach the same message, where does that leave you?

[galadriel]

All my horses have been trained with intermittent signals. Intermittent force is a pestering sort of feeling and the horse cann't lean into it or brace and forget about it. When a horse is trained using intermittent aignals, the horse can quickly learn that just one or a few taps/touches are a signal to move or respond; if they don't respond, it keeps going. It's not forceful or painful or punishing, it's just *there* and impossible to ignore. They have all learned to respond when I start applying pressure in any way, not at the 2nd, 3rd, 30th tap.

Example: When crosstied, I can tap on one of the horses with the tip of a finger and say "scoot" or "move over." They move away from the tapping finger. No force, no pushing, no "level 1 to level 4," no nagging until they do it. Just one tap to indicate which way to move.

I also use intermittent aids when teaching a horse to respond to bit or leg. The same idea applies; "nagging" until they respond makes it impossible to ignore, means you don't have to use nearly so much force, helps the horse to understand just what you're asking and where you're asking it, and teaches the horse to respond to your aid immediately when it's applied.

[RachelEvent]

Porcupine game teaches the horse to respond to constant pressure, Driving game teaches the horse to respond to rhythmical/intermittant pressure.

Parelli aren't saying that constant pressure is the only way to train a horse (which it plainly isn't!) but I think there are some situations where it is helpful for the horse to give to a constant pressure rather than push back against it, for example if the horse is to pull back when tied up, there is a constant pressure on the poll, which they would then give to rather than fighting against risking injury.

With the idea of reaching a point where there is no reaction, as Bebe mentioned, you still have to put on more pressure until they respond.. now seeing as I am a rather weak muscle-less person, I can't go forcing no horse to do anything, so you can add 'pressure' through more agressive body language, and through some added rhythmical pressure such a stamping a foot etc. Which is perhaps not what the Parelli system says (it doesn't give a solution in the first level... I looked :o )but if the most important principle is that the pressure is gradually raised until the horse responds, at which point the pressure is totally stopped, then I guess you increase that pressure in a way which you can even if it then means intermittent signals too.

Rachel xx

PS. When I use the word pressure, I don't automatically mean physical pressure, I mean pressure as in the amount of signal for the horse to go back, so it includes not only physical pressure, but body language and voice etc.

[Yann]

Perhaps I'm completely missing the point but this whole level 4 thing is something I don't like about Parelli, it's far too similar to the traditional 'good hard whack to show it who's boss' scenario. I agree there are other ways to achieve the same goal without resorting to force.

[KarinUS]

There's no whacking or hitting. Maybe I am taking your comment too literal though.
You use your fingertips to push on the horse. Even at level 4 I don't feel like we are hurting her so that's not my worry.
She won't even raise her head and continues to graze happily at level 4. Maybe we just need to teach this game where there's no grass...
And she does move, it just takes more pressure than with DJ and her response is much slower. But I don't consider her stubborn or hopeless. She's just a different kind of horse.

What seemed of concern to me was that I didn't find an alternate solution in case the 1-2-3-4 thing didn't seem all that successful. I would have liked to see another option.
In that respect, it does remind me of the old 'more of the same and with more force' thinking...
Shouldn't we be able to use our brains rather than our muscles?

[chev]

Level four has to be interpreted for each individual horse. It's certainly not an excuse to hit - or hit harder. The porcupine game with Lili is easy - touch her, and she moves. Level four for her would be poking hard enough to make an imprint.

Rhodri, however, has a tendency to ignore things poked into his side. That doesn't mean that I have to hit him - in fact, in the porcupine game, hitting isn't an option - it's to teach the horse to yield to steady pressure - which hitting isn't. I cheated a little - with Rhodri, phase four meant poking my thumb into his quarters, and just bringing his head round a tiny bit at the same time. He moved his quarters, I stopped poking. He did get the idea that way, although we still have to poke fairly firmly.

Thing is, level one also has to be different for each horse. For Lili, it's the lightest of pokes; for Rhodri, it's a bit firmer. He is just not as sensitive as Lili is. I hope that eventually he will develop a sensitivity to aids like that, but he will always be a more robust horse.

Although I've also been uneasy about the level four bit in the past, after using Parelli on ours I'm not so concerned now. It's not a violent training method at all. It uses the games to teach what most people would class as basic manners - moving over when asked, yialding to pressure on a halter and so on. The difference is that it teaches the horse the theory of manners - for example, the porcupine game teaches the idea of yielding to steady pressure. This is the same lesson learnt when teaching a horse to tie up, to lead, to move over - just that instead of teaching each task separately the horse learns one lesson that si then applied to various tasks.

It's true that some people use level four as a way to dominate a horse. But those people would probably also use join-up to dominate. Used with care and understanding, the games are not scary, or violent - they are a controlled way to develop trust and show the horse what is required.

I haven't joined the Savvy club - I just like the way the games work, and the results I've had. I don't use Parelli exclusively either. As with any training method, I take what I find useful, and ignore the rest.

[RachelEvent]

It really doesn't compare to whacking or hitting, because whacking and hitting are sudden, violent and angry moves.

Level 4 would be done with no emotions like the above, and is also a steady and slowly increasing thing.. rather than just suddenly hitting the horse, you've given them a rather long and totally adequate warning, starting from a very light phase and building up. You don't just turn round and smack them one because they haven't responded instantly.

Karin, perhaps your level four is becoming ineffective, because you aren't being quite clear enough about the first phases. No matter how pointless it seems, start with the very light phase one, and go through the levels at a regular speed (I usually count about three seconds at each level) It would make sense for her to start realising that you are going to ask nicely first, and that it's worth responding now rather than later ;)

Rachel xx

[KarinUS]

with Rhodri, phase four meant poking my thumb into his quarters, and just bringing his head round a tiny bit at the same time. He moved his quarters, I stopped poking.

Actually that's exactly the kind of modification I was looking for!

[Esther.D]

Actually that one worked with Rupert too - seems to give them a little hint of what you are expecting....

[virtuallyhorses]

I think the other thing to remember with ANY of the games that the goal is to use light pressure (of any sort) - it's certainly not desirable to go to level 2,3,4 but the idea is that in ANY request you MAY need to up the pressure in order to get the response you want.

The other thing to remember too, is that sometimes people go to level 3 or 4 not because they should but because they have made the request too hard. For instance, in the driving game you can use obstacles and enclosed spaces. BUT you start little\big spaces and make it harder as the horse is capable - in this way, you allow the horse to respond at level 1 or perhaps 2. People can get 'stuck' with having to use 3 or 4 simply because they go from driving through a 10m gap to driving through a 1 m gap and the horse says 'No WAY!' - but that's the person's fault not the systems.

You also need to remember that there is probably very little that we can do with our puny bodies that comes anywhere near the 'violence' used by horses on one another.

Yesterday I introduced a horse to 'head down' using pressure from my fingers gripping behind the head at the poll. I escalated to phase 4 gradually as there was zero response - I was gripping for all my worth at one stage and really trying to dig in. This sounds really mean I know, but this is really nothing to the horse - who just found it annoying since he had no intention of doing it.

We eventually made progress after a couple of minutes but I bet my arm is a heck of a lot more sore than his poll today!! I also used some halter pressure as I couldn't believe that he was just being bone-headed and perhaps he was a horse without that particular reflex point! After just a few attempts he now puts his head down on little more than a mild squeeze. After a few more sessions I expect that he will calmly put his head down on voice command, mild halter pressure or a mild fingertip cue.

Rachel's comments about emotions are very true too! Before escalating through phases I always check in with myself, I usually try to make sure that I can smile sincerely (it's very hard to do if you are actually getting cross) and perhaps even talk to the horse as if this truely is a game and he\she is a mischeivous opponent ;)

[KarinUS]

Missy was doing so well today! I had a riding lesson scheduled on her so no time for Parelli but she was much easier to move in the cross ties. I was very pleased with her.
Again we only started the Parelli games last week after Ray's fall and considering how well she did today I don't think the yielding will be a problem after all. :)
I like the three second rule. That's a good idea.

[Ipsa]

I found that my phase 4 was not getting results when I was doing Parelli and it wasn't until I saw Pat working with a horse when he came to New Zealand that I realised how tough and physical phase 4 could be. I must say that I had not expected it to be like that as the video and books that I had read had not prepared me for that.
I only had to use that type of phase 4 on my horse once when i got home and then she was responsive to phase 1 or 2.

[dophi_arno]

Sorry, I havent had time to read all the replies here so if what I say has already been said than my apologies.

I've been taught by Sam and Sascha Watson (ex Parelli but still on good terms) that you do not stick with the phase four. If you are persistantly only going at phase four the horse may become desensitalised to it. The way I do it is 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4... and so on until the horse responds... and then one massive quit! Some people belive that by dropping back to a phase 1 the point of the game is defeated, but because the 4 phases are looped the horse still does not get the "quit" as phase one.

The strength of phase four varies, with Harashee I've only ever had to do it twice (and perhaps once more when he was right brained, ect) and I made my phase four quite hard (and yes it made me feel bad) and it only lasted a few seconds. My phase four was actually a pinch and a twist, which sounds horrible but really I belive is the equivalent of one horse biting another. I guess its all relative.

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by Ipsa
...it wasn't until I saw Pat working with a horse when he came to New Zealand that I realised how tough and physical phase 4 could be.

Yes, I really think that we are probably more worried about it than the horses too. I vividly remember seeing John Lyons working with a young horse. He was teaching it float loading and quickly realised that the problem was the horse had NO leading manners. (spoiled rotten ;) ) At one point things got really quite physical - the horse deciding that he'd go over the top of John, John didn't even flicker emotionally and gave him 3 very rapid (hard) whacks with a dressage whip on the front of the shins. You've never seen such a surprised colt! He dropped to his knees :eek: But he tried it 3 more times before he gave up! as soon as the colt stopped being physical, so did John, who then carried on as before as if nothing had happenned.

You could almost here the gasp from the crowd! (oooohhh John Lyons hitting a horse! ) But there was absolutely no change in John's emotional level despite being nearly trampled (it wasn't retaliation or even really punishment) and the colt was in no way frightened. It was literally a game that each played to test the limits of the other. The colt had no hesitation about trying to hurt John as if he were another horse and John had basically said 'err, no you're not allowed to do that' and then continued with the original aid (question as he calls them) until he got the right response.

I actually like that way of thinking about it - question + response. It helps me to think less emotionally (or more generously) when dealing with a horse that doesn't give the 'right' answer. Instead of getting frustrated or tired or frightened you can think - :) "interesting answer" or "nice thinking" but not what I'm asking for and it keeps everything cool because you can respect that the horse is going through a learning process.

[virtuallyhorses]

BTW I've seen Imp Phase 1,2,3,4 other horses - Imps phases are something like:

1. Make face (ears back) and\or move into your space (wander up to you and you better get outta my way) - sorta casual
2. Snake neck, ears back, snap, threaten to cow kick (if it happens to connect tough luck) barge
3. Kick - one or double barrel, bite (quite hard) move other horse a couple of feet
4. charge - ears back, teeth barred - aim to bite as hard as possible and hopefully connect with full chest charge, drive weight on to you - complete double barrell kick and\or chase you and give you a good hiding

[KarinUS]

I vividly remember seeing John Lyons working with a young horse.

Woah. No personally I have to disagree with that. Just because a person is famous doesn't mean their methods are unquestionable.
If the horse was putting Lyon's life in danger then the hits were necessary to prevent the human from getting hurt.
But hitting as a training tool for young horses. I don't think so.
I realize that the point of these seminars/ shows/etc. is to show some quick results but if that was my horse I would have much rather gone back a few steps in training. Taught him how to lead and then progress to the next step from there. It might have taken a few days rather than an hour but in my eyes it would be just and preferable.

I am really surprised that the thread wandered off in this direction! :o. No way would we wack on Missy.
As her teacher it is my responsibility to teach her in a way that makes it natural for her to learn.
The answer I was looking for was really more along the lines of slightly turning the head like chev suggested.
As it turns out before I had a chance to try it, she already had figured out the initial version.
As different as Missy and DJ are in some ways, they both are smart, sensitive horses and both respond most favorably to steady, firm, kind, calm handling.

And I think horses are smart enough to differentiate between humans and horses. I have watched DJ apply all of the 4 phases that Imp uses on other horses but he has never pinned his ears at me.
I like the idea of natural horsemanship but things that are okay to do between horses are not okay to do between me and my horses. I am way too little to rely on slugging it out with these big guys. We are better off learning that our interaction has to be less physical.

Now that is my take on it. I know that thousands of horses trained this way turn out fine. So I am not saying Lyon's approach doesn't work. I am just saying it wouldn't work for me. It's not the kind of training I am looking for.
I kind of like it when I am challenged to take a detour, to think outside the box, to come up with a better lesson plan, and to take more time if necessary in an effort to help my students be the best they can be.

On a different note: before I became a horse owner I was involved in dog training for a very long time. If you see dogs in a pack you know they can be very physical with each other.
Yet you can train dogs to be perfectly obedient without the use of physical force. I'd like to think it can be the same with horses.

[virtuallyhorses]

I just want to absolutely clarify that I wasn't trying to say that John Lyons relies on hitting in any way. Nor am I trying to advocate hitting horses as a normal way of doing things. In fact the shock factor for the audience was absolutely that his methods are about patience, calmness, subtlety and kindness. But the point that both Ipsa and I were alluding to was that NH is not all about, to quote Pat Parelli, "being a cissy" it also requires us to be firm and fair. Firm, as far as a 1200lb horse is concerned, can be quite physical - as long as it is fair and not mean.

and yes, this horse would absolutely have seriously hurt him - it literally tried to climb over the top of him and stomp him, the whacks dealt out were more shock factor than anything else as far as the horse was concerned. He learned if I raise my forelegs at this guy - it hurts! maybe I won't try that again. Lyons had not even had a whip in his hand until that point and had to quickly grab one. The real problem was that the owner had probably never escalated ANYTHING above a very mild Phase 1 thinking that her 'kindness' alone would teach the horse but the horse saw this as very submissive behaviour and therefore felt it had every right to push her or anyone else around as if they were merely other horses.

I don't agree your argument about "And I think horses are smart enough to differentiate between humans and horses" - it's got nothing to do with smart or not. Their behaviour\body language is the ONLY language they know so whether they differentiate or not - these are the methods they use. Yes, I totally agree that they modify their behaviour - but only once they have learned to over time because we teach them and because we are so 'dense' that we miss most of what they say anyway :) .

[MelanieD]

Most of the time in older trained horse or well behaved youngster there's no need for that kind of physical punishment, and it wouldn't be appropriate for a horse such as dj or missy. OTOH having seen a stroppy, hormonal colt who's decided he's in charge in action, I think it would have been quite entertaining to see someone who won't hit horses at all try to deal with the little bugger!

[KarinUS]

I am glad the thought amuses you. It sounds as if other people enjoy seeing colts put into their place or 'horse and pony shows' like that wouldn't make so much money.
I just don't think problems have to be fixed on the spot if the oncome is a result of how the horse was brought up.
People raising young horses have a tremendous responsibility to raise them to be willing, unspoiled horses. Horses always learn no matter if we are trying to teach them or not. I don't consider myself knowledgable or experienced enough to attempt raising a young horse. I have seen however plenty of people with less knowledge, experience, and an awareness of their responsibilities commit themselves to doing just that. I hate to see a horse having to pay for its owners short comings.
And there we are back to the entertainment value. People go to these seminars to see some immediate results.
How can they expect the horse to load well if he hasn't learned to lead well? And why would whacking him in the shins be the first thing they think of to fix him?
Wouldn't it make much more sense to take the time teaching him to lead properly and then teach him to load after that?
Gasp... maybe even take days to accomplish that rather than get him all fixed up and straightened out in 30 minutes?
But I guess that would have no entertainment value.

[MelanieD]

I didn't say it amuses me to see colts put in their place, but some of them do need it. What I said was it would be interesting to see someone who would absolutely never hit a horse at all deal with a colt who's decided he wants to kick their head in. The one I saw being a brat had been correctly handled from when he was born, and used to lead beautifully. Then he turned into a hormonal brat and decided he was the big stallion and was going to put us pathetic humans in our place with a good kicking if we dared try to tell him what to do. If you think it's so inappropriate to discipline a colt in that situation, I'd love to know an alternative way to dealing with it. BTW, we did try nice first, we tried making it easy to be obedient and difficult to be a brat, we even tried taking his friend first so he was following instead of being lead. His response to all of it was "can't make me and I'll kick your head in if you try". What finally got through to him was a human who's a total boss mare type, and it was just small amount of use of a schooling whip, and making very sure he didn't win the argument, so not like someone gave him a major beating or injury. I'm all for taking the gentle approach with horses where possible, but not when they are taking the pee and blatantly letting you know that they are above you in the herd and that they intend to use feet/teeth to keep you in your place.

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by KarinUS
...
How can they expect the horse to load well if he hasn't learned to lead well? And why would whacking him in the shins be the first thing they think of to fix him?


I'm sorry Karin, but you seem to be determined to miss the intended point of these comments entirely. :) The 'whack's had almost nothing to do with the horse's loading or leading education. Nor were the people there to be entertained nor did they take any particular delight in this 3 second incident in the middle of a 45 min session. It was not the first thing tried, it was purely a result of the horse's actions when he was being taught to lead politely (prior to the loading session).

This discussion started out about a horse that ignores your phase 4. It has therefore simply continued as a series of comments about 'what is phase 4?' and the various comments are simply exchanges of ideas about what constitutes firm and fair as far as a horse is concerned.

With regards to backing off and training over 3 days instead of 30 minutes - again I think this misses the point. The short sessions are designed (for the most part) to show how if you follow a consistent approach then the initial starting session (no one ever claims that this is the only session) can indeed be short. The trainers I've watched are always at pains however to ensure that the audience knows that some horses take 5 mins, some take 5 months and that you should never be in a hurry and never get frustrated because of some timetable you've set yourself. They are also very clear about taking a step back and reassessing if necessary, ending on a good note, keeping emotions under control etc etc

I guess the question is - where is your differentiator between 'whack' and 'tap'. Do you feel that tapping with a whip is ok? why? its hitting. When does a tap become a whack - and why? The horse doesn't necessarily see any difference until emotions (the human gets mad and mean) come into play and in all fairness if your emotions are under control then you don't 'hit' (whether you call it a tap or a whack) at an unfair\unwarranted level anyway.

[Tootsie4U]

More important than the phase of the request is the RELEASE when she gets it. I'd focus on that (you) not her.

<edit> and, are you making a circle first?

[Tootsie4U]

Reading farther, I just want to comment that if the horse makes the choice (and it is a thought process) to intentionally *hurt* its handler, it is asserting dominance and for the safety of the handler it is in their best interest to correct the behavior with the same (or more) amount of pressure the horse put on the handler!
Natural herd dynamics!

This has become a debate and the point of the thread is to help Karin and Missy learn yielding. Karin, its just a matter of Missy learning to understand your request and reacting appropriately to it. To help her, you have to be obvious and timing your relases almost perfectly will do that :)

[KarinUS]

Tootsie,

thank you so much for directing the thread back to its intended purpose! :)
I understand the release part. It's very important. Especially with Missy. Under saddle she will actually let you know if she did it right but you aren't giving her the release...

I don't understand what you mean with 'the circle'. Will you please explain?

Viv,

I don't think we will communicate well on this subject and it really doesn't have much to do with the original thread but you asked for further clarification why I believe this 'lesson' went to far but I don't object to using a whip, etc.
I think they should have never let the situation escalate to this. The 'get the horse into the trailer at all cost' approach is a way of thinking that I just don't share. I don't think it was worth getting into this battle and was I in charge I would have been willing to take a step back, train the horse to lead and later on work on the loading. My focus would have been on 'training' rather than 'submission at all cost'. It is my opinion (and yours of course can differ) that in the colt's case there was very little training and a whole lot of forced submission. So apart from the difference of severity between a tap and 3 whacks that bring a horse to his knees, I'd also differentiate by purpose.

[Tootsie4U]

Poking and proding will make some horses tense up (the ticklish ones especially :D)- even with these games. The porcupine game should be played by using your finger to make a circle in the fur, then pressing in the middle of the circle as if you were pushing a "button".

It will serve to "warn" Missy that a request is coming rather than surprise her. It will also give her time to THINK about what is being expected rather than becoming preoccuipied with "why are they poking me! What do they want"

And as you said, the release is almost even more important than the request when teaching new things!

;) you'll get it!

[laura jeanne]

Not that I have a horse to train or anything, but I just got 2 Mark Rashid books out of the library. Almost all his examples of training horses use the constant pressure method. (You can read the book in an hour or so)

Also, my former teacher let me help with training a 13 year old horse who had never been trained to any aids. She was trying to show him to keep his head down. So I had to hold both reins in one hand about level with my face and the other hand pressing down on the reins in front of me. As soon as he put his head down a little, I had to immediately release all the pressure. Yyou could get his head down almost touching the ground. But you couldn't release until he started to lower his head and then you had to release right away!

[virtuallyhorses]

Perhaps changing to TTouch or clicker training might be more in keeping with your style and ideas? then you don't have to worry about phases etc

I guess what I was trying to establish was how much you were with\not with the PP program as you were specifically using the Porcupine Game - a Pat Parelli exercise. From what I'm reading from your comments is that you don't seem to be in any agreement with or understanding of PP's (or the other NH trainers which are basically the same) methods or principles so why not use the exercises and training methods of someone who gels with you more. :)

[Sue Carnell]

Don't forget your body language. It's the most important part. Really exaggerate it at first. Really slump and smile (with all 4 cheeks) when you're being friendly and really up it, lift your body, square your shoulders MIL look etc. to show your intent when asking for the move. Don't forget the rub before the pressure/request and the rub to stop, combined with the body language. Also throw your look beyond the horse, where you intend them to move to and not at where you're pressing. Separate your phases, the recommendation is 3 seconds between each phase at level 1. Don't be afraid to go back to phase 1 and start again. Start at phase 1. Nothing wrong with starting your porcupine with the carrot stick instead of your hand either if it helps you.

If the horse is grazing, you're probably zoned out. A little flick of the rope on the halter first would get her attention. Pat moves the horse's head a little towards him when first porcupining or driving the quarters in the video too.

Hope this helps.

PS: I wouldn't get too bogged down in it, I wouldn't use the phase 4 some of the instructors use either, even if it would mean it only needs using once. I think it's up to the individual and what they're comfortable with myself. If it's not working for you, or you aren't comfortable with it, then I would agree, try clicker training or something else instead.

[chev]

I adapt Parelli to suit me. My phase four won't ever escalate to being really forceful because I'm not comfortable with it. If I don't get the results I want with my rather wimpier phase four I cheat - introduce some other cue to give a hint of what I want. It's worked well for me so far. I'm with Karin in that I don't want to use force to rush something through.

That said though, I have a colt who's always been handled nicely and well. He has, as a result of hormones and growing pains (ie he thinks now is a good time to question just who is the dominant one in our relationship) developed a habit of rearing when he objects to something. It's dangerous - his front feet are round my head, he could go over backwards, he could take me with him, he could do serious damage to both himself and me. The nice, firm but fair approach isn't working. The next time he waves his front legs at my head he will get a shock - because if he doesn't, one of us will get hurt. It's not about getting a fast result - it's about making sure neither of us gets damaged.

The John Lyons thing worries me in the same way all these demonstrations worry me. There is without doubt an element of having to get this done - it wouldn't sell the methods or tickets to stand there and say 'teaching this colt to load can't be done today because we need to work on his manners over the next few days first'. But I feel, deep down, that that is the right, and fair, approach. It's not the fact that he reacted like that to being attacked - it's why he had to.

Tootsie - I like the idea of the circle. I'd not noticed prodding making ours tense but it does sometimes suprise Lili.

[Harry Hobbes]

Chev said: The John Lyons thing worries me in the same way all these demonstrations worry me. There is without doubt an element of having to get this done... But I feel, deep down, that that is the right, and fair, approach. It's not the fact that he reacted like that to being attacked - it's why he had to.

Exactly.

Myself having participated in, or observed many of these clinics conducted by some of the modern masters; and having conducted many group training sessions/demonstrations, I can testify to the fact that when things fall apart, particularly with safety issues, the person working the horse is not too concerned about ticket sales, their "image", the success of their business, or the opinions/prejudices/biases/fears/political correctness/naivete of those observing.

In the moment, the concern is exclusively with fixing the safety issue - for the horse's benefit. One cannot train a horse to do anything if it is not ready to train; including attitude (i.e., emotionally) ready.

This (almost) single-minded concern for correcting a safety issue in the moment (i.e., dangerous behavior) is an important attribute (among others) which serves to qualify the effective trainer from the not-so-effective trainer. Every master that I've observed or studied, exhibits this attribute.

In the event cited previously, John Lyons was merely following sound training practice by interrupting what he was attempting to teach (i.e., trailer loading), when he had a more immediate problem. And, he was using equine language (i.e., aggressive physical force) to communicate with the horse.

Being a seasoned professional, he used an effective tool, on a part of the horse that would be exceedingly difficult to physically injure with that tool, and would encourage the horse to stay down (i.e., not rear). This is why he advocates using a Dressage whip - it stings, but when used properly, doesn't have the mass to cause injury to skin/muscle/tendon/bone (unlike the Carrot Stick.) But, it certainly can reach the attitude; this is why it's used in Dressage.

And, because he was decisive, determined and persistent, Lyons didn't have to spend too much time correcting manners. (Probably about five minutes.) Then he could return to trailer training, or whatever.

One does not have to think too hard to imagine the wreck (and injuries) that may have ensued had Lyons just ignored the horse's behavior, and continued with attempting to trailer load a misbehaving horse.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

just a quick foray back to the original Question again...

Our Fell can be a bit slow on the uptake, but very keen to please and quite anxious to get it right.

He's stocky and has a tendency to walk through problems :rolleyes:

Anyway - have been doing a little groundwork with him, and at the same time gearing up to actually think about planning to do my L1 assessment (just how much can I do to avoid actually doing it - stupid huh !)

When you "porcupine" him to yield hindquarters, he sometimes just doesnt get it. Then I rewatched the L1 video. And Pat gets a lateral yield of the neck first - then ask for the HQ yield. Hmmm - so basically I can make this whole thing a lot easier by putting the horse in a position where the most sensible reaction is to do what i want him to do ??! Well YES !! I'm gonna have me some of that......

And of course - it works ;) Though it does highlight a need to work on his neck yields :rolleyes:

So - sometimes we end up going through the phases because we have not made it easy enough and clear enough to the horse.

This might be worth a try for you ? i.e. slow down a step, back up and startagain from absolute first principles. Assume you have a horse who does not yet speak your "language". Now how does it go ?

I've done this with "sideways game" as well, and got a better result every time. because I have improved how I ask the question ;)

Just a quick reference on "release" - Leslie Desmond is big into "release". Her book with Mr Dorrance "True Horsemanship Through Feel" is something I'm reading through at the moment so I can't give you the complete gen but would suggest you check it out if you're interested.

[Harry Hobbes]

Her book with Mr Dorrance "True Horsemanship Through Feel" is something I'm reading through at the moment so I can't give you the complete gen but would suggest you check it out if you're interested. It's quite the "bible", isn't it?

I'm happy to say that my copy is exceedingly well-annotated with notes.

...so basically I can make this whole thing a lot easier by putting the horse in a position where the most sensible reaction is to do what i want him to do ??! This is what the Dorrance Brothers and Ray Hunt are alluding to when they say: "Make it [the required action] the horse's idea." In other words, when you set up the exercise (location, position, etc.), you set it up so that the horse could readily succeed.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

It's quite the "bible", isn't it?

Yup - AND I got mine SIGNED :D

[Kate F.]

I think this highlights a weakness of the Parelli system, or any system that has a "one recipe fits all" approach.

The concept of the phases is quite right, I think. An increasing level of signal is how horses operate amongst themselves, and as natural horsepeople we aim to use the horse's own system of communication. Now, how do horses play the "porcupine game"? The first "get out of my space" is an ear laid back, or a curve of the shoulder, then comes a swish of the tail or flip of the nose, then a shake of a hoof and a threat - and only if all these are ignored does the horse kick. Phase 4 is the kick. If the kick still doesn't work, it kicks again. At no point does one horse exert steady pressure on another.

However, with a nervous, jumpy horse, a steady pressure will usually be better because it keeps the horse calmer. With a "tank" that just stands there and leans against you, you may need to put some energy into the signal, and you'll get a lighter response if you give a series of rapid pokes or get busy with your body language. Either way, you release/stop the signal immediately the horse moves, or even thinks about moving in the right direction - so the arguement that the signal is confusing if it's not steady pressure doesn't really hold. It's all a matter of reading the horse and assessing what's going to make it easy and clear for this horse in this situation.

Parelli is full of good stuff and the exercises are sound, but it is a little bit rigid in the instructions on how to do them. (I appreciate this has to be with a system that is heavily networked. He has to retain the integrity of the "brand" - which means there have to be rules - but sometimes we may need to bend the rules on an individual basis). If your horse gets "stuck" - get creative and find a way to make what you want clearer - which won't necessarily mean using more force or pressure - it might mean using the same amount of pressure in a different way!

I believe communicating effectively with the horse using the lightest signal possible is more important than following the rules!

Kate