Is it possible?

[jc]

Is it possible to train a horse to keep his head down without having lessons or sending him to a trainer? I have a 6 yr Quarter horse that has been a pasture ornament for the past 2 yrs. He really is a good boy as he really hasnt had alot of training, really he was only ridden a few times before I got him from a friend for free. I thought he had more training than he did and rode him all over the place till we had an accident through no fault of his. Long story. Its been a long cold winter and I am ready to start something, but dont really know what! Anyway, I read Healther Moffetts book and loved it but, I dont take lessons and cannot because of budget reasons. Maybe a few would be afforded but nothing much. I have a western endurance saddle I love but accordding to heather, it probably isnt seating me right. Does anyone have any advice or am I destined to bounce to the sky in his "bumpy tractor" trot as Heather says? All I want to do is bring his head down and give him some relief from my bouncing. I have succesfully "posted" on other horses in the past so it isnt me! We use a mechanical hackmore he seems to like and would use a Pelham as Heather suggests but dont know how to use two reins to "ask" him to bring his head down. Have draw reins but dont know if they are forcing him to do something he isnt comfortable with. HELP!!! Thanks, Jill

[Outrider]

Use a tie down strap, especially with a hackamore. It will be a separate noseband with a strap attached that goes to your girth snap ring. Set it at the height you want your horse to carry his head. He will do this in no time.

If you are having trouble sitting the trot in a western endurance saddle, it may be that you aren't posting properly or the saddle seat doesn't fit you. As you trot, put your weight on the balls of your feet when you go up and get in rythm with the horse as you go down. Happy Trails!

[horselover]

Outrider has a good idea, but it also poses a slight problem. His is the easiest and fastest solution, but If you use a tie down to correct his head set, you will need to use it all the time. If, instead, you teach him to drop his head, he will learn to do this and will do it naturally.

A friend of mine has a horse that a previous trainer used a tie-down on. She has struggled to teach Josiah to drop his head now because he is used to being "babysat" by a tie-down. Jo still fights and often refuses to lower his head.

Since you said your horse hasn't had much training, I suspect he lacks correct impulsion (using his hindquaters as his power and collecting them underneath his body). It's easier for a horse to "pull" himself along using the bit(and therefore your arms!!!) and his front legs.

One way to get a horse to lower its head is to create impulsion from behind so that he is not "pulling" himself using his font end. Often, horses hold their heads high because of poor impulsion.

As you walk your horse on a semi-loose rein, squeeze with your legs(not a continuous squeeze, but more like squeeze, pause, squeeze, pause) until your horse drops his head. Immediately loosen the reins, even if he puts his head up right way, don't tighten up on the reins. Let him walk a few steps and then squeeze again, giving rein when he even slightly drops his head. Repeat this.

Once the horse drops his head at the walk, try the trot. Don't tighten up on the reins- keep them the length that you have acheived at the walk. Then follow the same pattern of squeeze and give at the trot.

Do it also at the canter, resisting the temptation to pick up on the slack in the reins.

Soon, your horse will learn that it is much more comfortable to work on a loose rein, which he recieves when he drops his head. With some horses, this takes time, but in my opinion, it is much better than using a tie down unless you absolutley have to. If you do use the tie down, try this same method so that the horse doesn't learn to completely rely on the tie-down.

Hooe this gives you some ideas! Oh, and I definately agree with Outrider about the saddle.

[Outrider]

I have seen horses that continued to carry the head properly after the tie down was taken off. I don't use it as an all- the-time rig if I don't have to, and I don't intend it that way initially unless the horse is a chronic head tosser. Then you may have to use it all the time. Happy Trails!

[Mossy]

Please avoid a tie down if you can.It sounds very similar to draw reins and the entire ethos of Heather's work is to get the horse to want to do things correctly in order to make his life more comfortable. I think I am right in saying that draw reins are anathema to her.
Good luck

[jc]

Thanks so much for the replies! It is certainly something to work on. I dont really WANT to use a tie down as I agree that I want him to learn to drop his head, and then the bumpyness will lessen. It seems like he is doing just what Heather says in her book, hollowing his back because my bumpyness hurts! I agree that he is not using his back legs, I just dont understand how squeezing my legs will tell him to drop his head! I am SO far from a horse trainer that it isnt even funny. I dont understand hardly anything you all talk about! I know there is hope!! I will try the squeezing/pause w/o understanding though. Squeezing usually means GO doesnt it? The saddle isnt unusually big, 15 inch I believe. I think I may get Heathers seat saver and see how that goes. I really think when he gets his head down it will help my posting, as I have not had a problem on other horses. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you all and the time you take to help us out!! God bless you! Jill

[Sharon H]

It may help you to understand how squeezing your legs will (hopefully!) make him drop his head if you think of your horse as being a bit like a car. If you imagine your legs are your 'engine', that is what creates the forward movement. Your hands are your gear stick and steering wheel combined. If you ask the horse to go forward into his bridle he should naturally seek out the contact on the reins, if you ride with a fairly loose rein he will bring his head down seeking the contact. This is why it's crucial that you don't take up too much of a contact because that will cause him to lift his head up again.

[jc]

I dont want to sound too ignorant but I have a question... you said "naturally he will seek out contact on the reins..." I dont really understand what that means. Horses like loose reins so why do they "go for contact"? I am really trying to understand this but it isnt registering for some reason. Maybe you mean something by contact other than what I think it means. What would we all do w/o you all to help!! ARGGHHH!!! Jill

[M-A]

You are 100% correct, when you mention that draw reins might force him to do something he is not comfortable with. A UK magazine has recently run a series of articals on the horses' back. This gave sound scientific evidence of the physical damage that can be caused by schooling aids that attempt to force a lowered head carriage. I not certain about a "tie down", but it does sound as if it falls into this catagory.

In order to lower it's head comfortably, it is VITAL that your horse can use his back correctly. You can tell when this is happening as his back will lift. The first time I managed this, it felt like the horse was going to buck!!! For the horse to lift his back he needs to build up strong, toned abdominal muscles. These contract and bend the spine upwards under the saddle, like a bow being flexed.

The trouble for us every day riders is that very few trainers seem to understand this concept. You are probably better off using Heathers book and video, than going to someone who encourages you to take short cuts that may at best make your horse uncomfortable, and at worst cause physical damage. Would it be possible for you to get a video of yourself riding and send it to Heather for advice? You could also post your query in her section of the site. It might be worth refering her back to this section, so she can talk you through some of the feedback you have got so far. She can certainly explain this far better than my clumsey efforts!

Sorry if I'm on the ole soapbox, but this is an issue that I feel very strongly about. It does sound as if you already know what you do not want to do ie use gadgets, but are not totally sure how to move forward with the scooling of your horse. Don't worry, you are not alone. Join the gang, thats why we are here!!!

[Showjumper]

I don’t believe in pulling horses into an outline – I was taught to constantly play with the reins until the horse drops his head out of desperation, but I HATE this method and NEVER use it. My advice is, like everyone else has said, to sit light and keep a long rein. Horses generally don’t like to have no contact from the reins as the contact makes them feel secure, so get your reins toa comfortable length, at which you have a gentle ‘feel’ on the horse’s mouth, and use positive leg aids and you’ll find the horse will arch his neck, drop his nose, and ‘seek’ the bit. Therefore he will be in a correct outline and won’t be at all stressed. Oh, and one last thing, once you have the correct outline and the horse is happy – DON’T change the length of the reins or fiddle with them – this will upset the delicate balance! Good luck.

[Sharon H]

They reach for a contact because they are waiting for guidence on what to do with the impulsion that you're creating with your legs, does that make sense?

[jc]

Even an "unschooled horse" is waiting for guidance? The decision I have to make now is do I try the pelham bit or just use my hackmore? I will have to use what I have for now.... maybe they will work after all. I have a full cheek snaffle that he didnt like too much, but it couldve been the work he didnt like! I cant get Heathers video as it doesnt come to fit USA tape players yet. I dont have access to a video camera to send one to her also. Im sure it will all work out with all this advice.. somethings got to work! Thanks, Jill

[horselover]

Whether the horse is schooled or not, he is still wiating for guidance, although some horses desire it more than others, which is why I said it might take a while for your horse to repond. I would try this first before spending money on a new bit. Although you might want to try going back to a bit instead of using a hack.
I know what you mean about Heather's video. Everyone is always talking about how good it is, but I live in NY, and so I can't get it either although I am very curious and want to see it.

You said you don't have money for lessons; you might want to go to your local tack store to find a book on this.

I found one that looked like it might be helpful- practical schooling, the description mentioned contact
http://www.statelinetack.com/scripts/product.asp?company=slt&style=EI3-472938&category=2502

[Allie]

I don't advocate the use of tie-downs for anything other than chronic head tossers, but they really are not like draw reins at all. It is a device used mainly in western riding which is I'm sure why you are not familiar with it. It is essentially a standing martingale. It is a nylon or leather strap that attaches to the girth on one end and to a cavesson on the other end, sometimes run through the ring on the breastplate to keep it from dangling when the horse puts his head down (like the neck strap on a martingale).

Allie

[Showjumper]

I don't see why you can't school him in a hackamore if that is what he is comfortable with - just remember if you want to show him, there are sometimes rules against wearing bitless bridles.

[floppy]

my trainer uses an elastic training aid for horse starting out with training or ones that have always been used for hacking to help in getting an outline. And with horses that come to him with high head carriages he trains them every so often with side reins but most of the time he rides them without any aids and after alot of patience and work the horses begin to have a natural outline wihtout any assistance of the aid.
hmm can someone please explain what draw reins are? i have been reading so much about them on this site but i dont udnertsand what they look like. :)

[Showjumper]

The elastic-thingy you described is known as a harbridge, and they serve to pull the horses head down. Draw reins are attached to the dees on the saddle and serve the same purpose.

[Sarah]

hello!

Draw reins, harbridges, side reins, elastics, standing martingales, tie downs whatever you call them and whatever they are supposed to do, all do the same thing really - that is hold the horse's head down.

That is fine, the horse will trawl around with its head down, but getting a horse to have its head down is only half the story (if that). The whole reason to have the head down is that it is a sympton of having the horse working through from behind, using its back and starting to carry itself. Pulling the head down does not encourage the horse to pull its back legs in under himself, it just asks the horse to disengage at the withers and hence leave the back legs about 4 miles behind the front, with a hollowed back in between.

In order to get a horse to use its quarters, work through and hence lower its head you really need to work on riding him - try some lateral work like Shoulder in to engage the back legs, use frequent transitions, etc, basically read Heather's book!

I hope that has helped.

bye!

PS Floppy, draw reins are long reins that are attached to the girth between the front legs, go up and through the bit rings then are held like double reins with the normal reain from the bit. They are basically used for hauling in and down a horse's neck. you can always spot a horse that has been ridden in draw reins as it will have an enormous neck and no muscles on its quarters. They can be used sucessfully (so I have been told), but I have never seen anyone (even top trainers) use them as anything apart from large levers to force the horse into doing something it doesn want to or understand.

[Edited by Sarah on 7th Mar 2001 at 02:07 PM]

[jc]

I have read Heathers book and to the average unschooled rider it is so far over our heads it has to be read over and over to understand, which I am trying! HA Dressage is very interesting to me and above all else is what I would choose to do if I had the choice but to be honest seems VERY far from my reach right now. I think maybe a few lessons on a schooled horse would help me to understand what end result I am after. Problem with that is that after all the stuff I have heard about what people have been taught that was wrong, I may be better off doing it myself! I am going to be faithful with what I have and give Simba a chance to shine! He is such a good boy and really wants to please. I may not understand all the fancy talk about shoulder in and leg yield but I do understand Squeeze pause, squeeze pause~~ LOL~~~ if what I have doesnt work then I will move on to the pelham bit and Heathers seat saver. I cant thank you all enough for all your help. Jill

[floppy]

whats heathers book called????

[jc]

Enlightened Equitation, very good book! (from what I understood!) :)

[horselover]

Don't worry about not understanding the terminology. When I first started riding, I never had any clue what veryone was talking about. iT's like another language. And in the same way that it takes time and effort to learn a foreign language, it takes time to speak and understnad "equine talk." Get some books- even just basic beginner books. my favorite are the horse encyclopedias- I have 3 or 4 and they are a very handy reference, especially when I was jsut learning.

Showjumper- the reason I suggested going back to the bit was becuase if you are trying to get the horse to eventually seek out contact from the reins, that contact is alot more obvious with a bit than a hack. A hack still provides pressure, so eventually you would be able to do the same thing, but it would probably take longer. you might want to get a more milder bit if your hors eis used to a hack. maybe a plain loose ring snaffle.

A few lessons might be helpful- even more so if you could take them on your horse. I know a few instructors where I live who do not mind going out to someone's barn and giving a lesson- maybe you could find something like that where you are.

Aboveall, keep enjoying yourself and don't stress out. You'll get it! And just keep asking if you still need help- everyone here is alwyas willing to give advice! :)

[jc]

Thanks Horselover! I do have a thread out there about standing quietly if you care to add your 2 cents! I would love to hear from you. Thanks again, Jill

[M-A]

Hi JC,
I don't think it's a question of the book being over your head as such, although some dressage terms can come across as "fancy talk". It's probably just that the book is aimed at a UK audience and contains English phrases. I'm sure thet if I was reading a book by a US auther, I would also feel a little unfamiliar with some of the terms used. Thats's possibly why the book seems hard to understand in places. Keep posting any bits you need "interpreting" and I am sure we will do our best to oblige. Team work and all that :). If this fails, you can always post your question on the Enlightened Equitation forum to get info straight from the horses mouth. I don't think Heather will be offended at being likened to a horse - I hope!

P.s. Floppy - if you haven't guessed already, the book is called Enlightened Equitation, and is is worth every penny.

[jc]

Thanks for trying to make me feel not so ignorant, you're probably right, its either the english or the dressage lingo or just plain the fact that I am new to the equine language. I am just plain glad that I dont have alot of stuff to UN- learn! Thanks for the encouragement! Jill