Advice getting horse away from barn?

[Mithril]

I'm a delurking returning rider. I've enjoyed this newsgroup, particularly this forum, and think you guys have a lot of great advice to offer.

Although I don't own or lease a horse, I'm allowed to take a horse out alone at my local stable. I had to get certified to do this by riding out with their instructors to assess my riding and ability to handle the horses. I later signed up for a package of lessons, which I recently finished. I'd classify myself as an advanced beginner - respectable walk, trot, canter (english and western), started jumping (complete novice there!), and able to deal with the odd spook, buck, or attempt to drop and roll (sandy beach seems to inspire these horses to try occasionally).

I usually ride with a friend who boards her horse at this barn. We trail ride (walking, trotting, cantering) and generally have a fabulous time. I love riding with her but due to her schedule she can be fairly unreliable. If I want to ride, I'm going to have to go out alone. The stable is located on a federal nature preserve and the staff knows who is out, when they left, and when they are expected back, so I'm not really concerned about safety (or at least no more that I would be when out with my friend). The problem is the two times I've tried to ride out alone I've had a lot of trouble getting the horse away from the barn, and on one occasion had to change horses :( I rarely have a problem if at least one other horse is going out with me. Alone, I find a battle begins. Maybe my confidence drops a bit alone, but I find myself giving up rather than escalating a fight with the horse. Some of them can be pretty determined not to leave, and I'm obviously not communicating that we WILL leave.

I love riding and am thrilled to have started again, but I'm not going to be able to continue if I never get to ride! I really need some advice on how to deal with a horse trying it on in this situation. Maybe I shouldn't try to walk away from the barn, but rather trot? I spoke to my instructor and he told me I'm a better rider than I realize and I just need to be firm. Any additional advice would be appreciated! This is not only embarassing, but keeping me from riding!

[CBay]

Don't let this stop you from riding. All you need is practice at being firm and feeling confident. These horses may not be used to going out alone and if they are ridden regularly by different people may have got into the habit of trying to see what they can get away with.

You could try leading the horse out of sight of the barn before you get on. I had this problem with my horse refusing to leave the field of go past scary objects. I found that if I got off I had more confidence. My horse also had more confidence if I was leading. We got past a lot of really scary things like that.

I do hope you don't give up. Most of us have been there and know what it feels like.

[Harry Hobbes]

Some of them can be pretty determined not to leave, and I'm obviously not communicating that we WILL leave. Au contraire.

The horse understand exactly that you wish to leave. What you are communicating is not mis-understood. The problem is what the horse expects once it does leave.

If one gives the horse a bad experience when away from the barn, the horse learns very quickly to stay at the barn, to avoid a repetition of the bad experience; and, it will do anything it can to stay away from the place of the bad experience (i.e., avoid being away from the barn.)

Rental horses mostly get bad experiences; because of the lack of training of the greenhorns using them. You are merely encountering the results of some prior bad experience.

Getting forceful (firm) with a reluctant/fearful/"nappy" horse is a great way to give it a bad experience; and, to reinforce in its' mind that it was justified in trying to avoid going away from the barn. It will not be willing; at best, it will be coerced.

As an aside: This is pretty typical of rental riding stables or dude ranches, because the transitory greenhorns all saw the Westerns, and try to "Hollywood" the rental horse. This gets a string of rental horses pretty sour, pretty quick. (And is why some firms employ a Wrangler to sort out rider-induced horse mis-behavior.)

The thing to do is to train the horse to understand that it can go away from the barn, and not have a bad experience. But, this takes time, effort and dedication; and multiple training sessions. But, most of all, it takes resolve and determination to train the horse as the primary objective, in lieu of just enjoying the riding of the horse on the trail (or wherever.) And, other greenhorns riding the same horse can undo (reverse) this training in a heartbeat.

Ask your instructor (or the staff) to teach you how to re-train a barn-sour horse using the Cloverleaf Pattern (or an equivalent exercise). If the operators of this stables are not into training horses in correct behavior, or allowing you to do the training, then you may want to look for another riding stables that does; else, you and/or the horse may be "on the fight" during your rides. Perhaps you can find a stables that leases one horse to you (if this one doesn't), so that you can train it over time, without the reversals caused by other transitory riders.

Best regards,
Harry

[Sooty]

Harry - could you explain the 'Cloverleaf Pattern', please?

[Harry Hobbes]

Harry - could you explain the 'Cloverleaf Pattern', please? The strategic objective to re-training a barn sour horse is to get the horse to realize that (although the barn is a safe place) the barn is just another place no better nor worse than any other place. We cause the horse to realize this by not always stopping at the barn (we make it just one of many places to be.)

An effective method to accomplish this is to have the barn/stables location merely be a point of origin which the horse and rider pass through, on their way to somewhere else. In other words, the barn/stables becomes the originating and midpoint of the ride, not always the end point; it's the center of the Cloverleaf.

Imagine a four-leaf clover, with the barn/stable at the center, at the intersection of the four leaves. If you and Ol' Paint depart the barn and ride out to the North, say about 100 meters, and then circle back and ride back in to the origin point, you've just rode one leave of the Clover.

But, rather than stopping or even slowing down, you ride straight through/out the barn/stables going South, and ride about 100 meters, then circle back to the origin. Then immediately ride East about 100 meters, circle back, ride through the origin, and ride West, about 100 meters. Each time you come back to the origin, you keep Ol' Paint moving; no stopping.

Circle back to the origin, and go North again, say 150 meters this time. Then back though the origin toward the South 150 meters. Then East; then West.

Build the distance out incrementally with every iteration. (One could even start by riding all over the barn/stable premises on the first iteration; then leaving a short distance for the next iteration.) Start the exercise with short distances; then build upon them.

Ol' Paint learns that a) we will always return to home; and, b) but, that doesn't mean we're done working.

Because one can rarely ride a true Cloverleaf pattern due to obstructions, such as buildings, fences and roads, one may have to alter the pattern to something akin to the spokes of a wheel. Perhaps even a two-spoked wheel: East, then West. The shape (or name) of the pattern is not very important.

But, what is important is what happens at the origin: we don't stop and put up the horse. We ride through and out again; many times; always judging the reaction of our horse.

Finally, when the horse is no longer being "nappy" as we come into the origin, we ask the horse to stop and stand still. We sit there in the saddle for about five minutes (no cheating on time, now) looking at the scenery and relaxing on a loose rein; being very quiet. If the horse is still relaxed and waiting after five minutes, we dismount, and untack our horse, and put him up (i.e., reward him.) If the horse gets impatient and won't stand still, we go back to riding the Cloverleaf pattern again.

Sooner or later if we're patient (and if we don't pick a fight with the horse), the horse will relax and cease being "nappy".

Should you read this and come to the conclusion that this is a lot of riding/work, then you are correct. After all, one has to undo a lot of human intervention that went into training the horse to be "nappy" in the first place. (By nature, horses like to move out in open spaces; which is why open range work is so therapeutic to horses.)

This (and similar exercises) work well; if one is patient and persistent.

Best regards,
Harry

[Ipsa]

Wow Harry, awesome reply :)

[Mithril]

Thank you for your replies!

I've suspected what CBay suggested, that they are in the habit of testing to see what they can get away with. I tend to act as though they'll want to go out, and my aids are firm but not strong (solid squeeze versus a kick, you know?). This seems to get interpreted as "Hey, maybe I don't have to listen...". After that it escalates. I may not be going to a strong enough second stage aid, opting for a stonger squeeze rather than a kick. Is it possible I'm encouraging them to keep testing by doing this?

I found Harry's suggestions very interesting. The horses they use for these club rides are supposedly not given to greenhorns. The Hollywood riding is unlikely, but I'm sure they do experience a broad range of riding ability and styles. Theoretically, they shouldn't be out with the yank and kick style of rider, or the complete clinging novices...but I suppose anything is possible once they are away from the barn. I sort of thought they just didn't want to work, but actual bad experiences could play a part.

The cloverleaf training is a fabulous idea and I think it would work. However, it requires me to now get the horse away from the barn multiple times! I find that intimidating since getting away once is already a problem, but it makes sense and I may be able to try it. I'd really appreciate if you could elaborate on this aspect:

"Sooner or later if we're patient (and if we don't pick a fight with the horse), the horse will relax and cease being "nappy". "

That sums up the problem in my mind. I'm winding up in a fight, although I'm not trying to "pick one". Even if I am willing to just sit the horse outside the barn, there WILL be a fight since they want to go back inside.

The first time I had a problem one of the staff jumped right on the horse upon our return to correct him. The horse knows him though, and tested him far less. He did tell me the horse tried a few spins out on the beach, but he "handled it". I suspect "handling it" required a level of agression I'm not prepared to engage in.

I've also been trying to ride as many different horses as possible, both in lessons and on trail. Maybe I should hone in on one or two. I was waiting to see if any specific ones would catch my attention, but the only one that did was sold shortly after I rode him a few times. The rest all seem pretty similar. There are differences in gaits and temperment, but I haven't found one that seems particularly more cooperative than the rest.

I am just returning and I know I have a lot to learn. I do appreciate the advice here very much. You all seem pretty knwledgeable. I'm not sure how to put it, but the advice at the barn ranges from the reasonable to the downright scary, often seeming (at least to me) to lean toward the scary end.

If anyone has advice on how not to inadvertantly "pick a fight" I'm very eager to hear it. Thanks again!

[Harry Hobbes]

Part 1 of 2:

Three applicable points of information to help frame the discussion:

1. John Lyons is on record as stating that "...the horse is always learning." If so, then we (humans) are always training, whether we admit/acknowledge/realize it, or not. Stand next to any horse (or sit on it's' back), and we are teaching the horse something. The pertinent question becomes: What are we teaching this horse in this moment?

2. Bill Dorrance's phrase (or, is it Tom's?): "Take the time it takes." This is Bill's colloquial manner of saying that the human must exercise patience in training the horse; almost above all else.

3. We are successful with the horse, and the horse is happier, when we "…give the horse a better deal."

So, with regard to my statement: "Sooner or later if we're patient...the horse will relax and cease being 'nappy'", what I'm saying is:

Arguably, the best human attribute (meaning most effective) is the rider/handler/trainer's use of persistence in the cue (i.e., asking the horse), to do one thing (one single action), until the horse responds correctly. For examples: step over, or pick up a foot, or move forward. Once a human learns to stay the course, and persist with asking the horse to do one (small) thing at a time, with the same cue, until the horse responds correctly, then the human is becoming effective in training the horse. This is what Dorrance means with "Take the time it takes." And, this is the fundamental basis of training any animal.

The time it takes to get the correct response varies by horse and the effectiveness of the human (no news here); but, the horse will respond correctly if we continue to ask for one specific thing, without losing patience and trying something else (another cue/action), then something else, then something else, because we don't see results for the first cue within or human attention/patience span.

This means that if it takes one hour to get a horse to step over, then we should be prepared to take one hour. Then, the next step over will take less time; and so on, until the horse responds immediately. The horse is learning the meaning of the cue; and learning to respond correctly.

As the horse learns to respond to our cue, it will calm down, if the human remains emotionally calm, because the human isn't feeding the emotional fires. We then build upon that calm compliance to get more/better (refinement of the) responses.

The horses at your stables have learned to balk/resist/refuse basic cue(s). This is the problem to resolve.

Then, with regard to my statement: "...and if we don't pick a fight with the horse…", what I am saying is:

This human trait of impatience with the horse not doing what we want, in reality, tends to result from either the human impatience with the horse not understanding quickly enough, or human intolerance of resistance/refusal. Either way, the situation usually changes to:

A. A flurry of different cues serving to confuse the entire activity - and the horse; or,

B. An escalation of human emotional force; or,

C. The human quitting the cue (giving up) before the horse responds correctly, and tries something else.

A and C serve to teach any horse that cues have no meaning.

B, the escalation of emotional force on the part of the human is, in essence, "picking a fight". And, this is what "…getting firm…" usually entails. (Getting "firm" tends to be a codeword for fighting [back]; same-same with "handling it". Notice your staff person didn't say: "I trained the horse to do…")

To be sure, horses themselves may be "picking a fight" when they escalate their resistance. But, that doesn't require the human to respond in kind. (Rather, the human can refuse to fight, and just continue to ask with the same cue, without increasing the emotional presentation to the horse. Horse training is very much a test of wills; but, one does not have to fight to have one's will prevail.)

One noteworthy point: Increasing the intensity of a cue, that is, the physical force of a cue, such as using Parelli's four phases of force, is not picking a fight, unless we escalate emotionally. This increase of physical force is how we set up training so that we may "...offer the horse a better deal": By giving the horse a choice between a light cue and a hard cue (in Parelli's case: four levels of pressure), the horse gets to choose which it would like to respond to. Invariably, the horse will choose the lighter cue, and respond to that lightness. (But, for example, slapping the horse because it did not respond, is not offering a better deal; this would be "picking a fight"; the difference lies in the human's emotions and intent with the slap: punishment, retribution.)

But, this offering a better deal is tricky for a novice to get right, and can quickly devolve into punishment/retribution. Perhaps the staff person offered the horse a better deal out on the beach; the proof will be in the subsequent behavior of the horse: Does the horse now respond softly to your cues? (It's not difficult for an individual to dominate a horse to such an extent that the horse will obey that individual. But, has the horse been trained to obey every qualified rider? Which is what training accomplishes.)

So let's return to your original issue, as I understand it: the horse will not leave the stables alone.

Actually, the real (behavioral) problem is: the horse will not go forward as cued by you, in the direction you've cued. (If it did, the horse would just leave the stables, and go where you cue, regardless of who is or is not with you.) So, go back to the Cloverleaf Pattern (or equivalent exercise) and practice cueing the horse forward, in the direction you select, and then returning via the origin; then, and go and return the other three directions in turn.

If the horse will not travel forward ten feet without balking/resisting/refusing, then only go forward nine feet before returning to the origin. Once the horse is correctly and consistently performing the Cloverleaf Pattern with nine-foot lobes (i.e. leaves), then extend the lobes to ten feet, and get that correct and consistent. Then eleven feet, et cetera, and work the horse up to greater distances.

If the horse won't come out of the barn, then train in the barn, until he changes his mind. (Or close off the barn so it can't get back in the barn.)

The training principle herein is: If the horse will not go forward, then work on getting it forward just one foot. When it gets that correctly, pet/praise the horse; then, work on two feet forward. Start small, and build.

If the horse doesn't want to, that's okay, because it's not require to want anything or not want anything; it is only required to respond correctly. (Notice how I'm not operating on an emotional level? Neither mine nor the horse's: We have an objective task to complete; so, I'm going to keep asking until we just do it.)

Continued below...

[Harry Hobbes]

Part 2 of 2:

With regard to:
I tend to act as though they'll want to go out, and my aids are firm but not strong (solid squeeze versus a kick, you know?). This seems to get interpreted as "Hey, maybe I don't have to listen...". After that it escalates. I may not be going to a strong enough second stage aid, opting for a stonger squeeze rather than a kick. Is it possible I'm encouraging them to keep testing by doing this?

And,

If anyone has advice on how not to inadvertantly "pick a fight" I'm very eager to hear it.

Train the horse that you're on, every moment you ride it. Do so calmly, with an attitude of "nothing personal, and no hard feelings." Don't worry about testing of wills or winning or losing, good or bad, or any of that ego stuff. Don't worry about undiagnosed and speculative reasons for the horse's misbehavior, such as teeth, back, loneliness, whether the horse wants to or not, or the phases of the moon; if the horse is sound and healthy, ride (train) it.

Just "ask" for a "correct" response; in everything that you do with the horse. If the response is incorrect, don't move on to anything else, and don't "let it go"; fix the issue/problem as it occurs.

Keep asking as the horse searches to find the correct response; you are giving the horse an opportunity to find the correct response. Then, when it finds the correct response, immediately give it a release (from the asking), and pet and praise (reward) it for making the correct decision. Start with little things; then, build to bigger things. (Stepping forward one step is a little thing; leaving the barn - many steps forward - is a big thing.)

Fix the little things; and, the big things will take care of themselves.

However, if you're short on time, and cannot wait for the horse to respond to your repeated asking with a cue, then you can offer the horse one alternative to your light cue: that's a physically heavy cue - such as Parelli's phase 4. In other words, if you ask the horse to go forward with a gentle squeeze of your upper calves, and the horse does not go forward, then immediately spank the horse once, hard, as a heavy alternative cue. Spank it on the croup or the shoulder; hard, with either your open hand, or the tail of the reins. (I use the croup, because it's behind the Drive Line. Anyone within 100 feet should hear a loud "smack".) The horse will jump; probably forward (so make sure that you're hanging onto the pommel or buck strap, have the horse on a loose rein, and don't grip with your legs). Then, immediately pet and praise the horse for responding correctly (it moved forward). Then, let the horse stop, or stop it, and everybody relax; then, repeat the sequence of light cue, and a spanking for no response.

This spanking is you giving the horse a worse deal, so that when you do offer it a light squeeze again, it'll take that cue because it's a better deal. If you are an effective spanker, the horse will require no more than about three; usually less. Bear in mind that this technique is not more effective than others; it just saves time.

But, through it all, if you stay calm, stay with the cue set, and don't escalate your emotions, you will not be picking a fight. You'll merely be offering the horse a choice of two alternatives. "Which do you want to respond to? Nothing personal, and no hard feelings."

I'm not sure how to put it, but the advice at the barn ranges from the reasonable to the downright scary, often seeming (at least to me) to lean toward the scary end. Training horses should rarely scare either you or the horse, despite occasional high-levels of energy. A good trainer should always be reading the demeanor of the horse, and helping it through fear and difficulty. And, a good trainer will be able to talk/walk you through things that seem frightening to you in a calm, safe manner; a manner which allows you to manage any fear with your intellect. In other words, a good trainer reduces/eliminates the scary stuff.

It's easy to qualify the people that you're doing business with (or working with) by asking the individuals to tell you their training and experience background. What's their resume, regarding equine activities? Amount and type of training; and with whom? What trainers trained them? What "school" of training do they use or follow? And why that "school"? What periodicals/publications do they read? What clinics/seminars/training have they attended? And last but not least: What are their success stories, and why were they successful? (Ask them to point out one or two of their successes, then go check out the horse yourself.)

The best resume of any trainer is happy, contented, softly-responding horses. If they can demonstrate to you how to cause a horse to be happy, contented, and softly-response, then stick to them like glue.

If the response to your queries is something like: "I got good just by riding horses [not by reading books, getting formal training, studying the methods of accomplished trainers, etc.]"; then, this person should be about 348 years of age, and have been riding for at least 300 of those years to gain the equivalent level of knowledge and skill of a person who takes advantage of the educational "force multipliers" and rides horses.

Also, you'll quickly qualify other knowledgeable and experience persons, by observing their personal horses for behavior patterns, and if those persons effectively, efficiently and calmly resolve issues as they emerge.

Does this answer your questions/concerns?

Best regards,
Harry

[CBay]

The clover leaf pattern is a sound idea and will work. I have used something similar, getting my horse to walk past the field gate. (Clover leaf pattern impossible due to location). The only problem is that these are barn horses and are ridden by many different people. For any form of training to work it has to be consistent and repeated often and in this situation consistency and repitition is impossible.

I still suggest that if the horse's behaviour is making you nervous, then get off and lead in the direction you want to go. This will make you more confident and avoid a battle. This could be combined with a clover leaf pattern. You will find that the times you have to get off and lead gradually get fewer. You may also find that the next time you ride you have to start all over again as other people will have ridden the horse and may have reinforced the napping behaviour. You may also find that as the horse gets to know you he will recognise you and the napping will get less.

[Mithril]

I really appreciate your detailed responses! I'm going to implement your advice. I'll also try to hone in on one horse so things are at least a bit more consistent. I plan to ride tomorrow. I'll let you know how I get on! Thanks again!

[Jenks]

Mithril-did it work? I have a Paint that does this sometimes-and also rushes back to the barn. I think I'll be trying it!

[pengapenga]

Thank you for such an intersting thread:)

[Miriam]

This is a problem I have with my own pony. She will go out fine with others but due to my lack of confidence has never gone out on her own. Half way through last year I decdied that we needed to make a start on gaining our confidence now that mine has soared a little. I hstarted by riding her round the yard. Last week we progressed to taking her out of the gate. Outside both our comfort zones.