Skinny horse - how much of a problem?

[Scarlett 001]

There is a horse I am thinking of buying perhaps at some point in the future - he is an older thoroughbred (somewhere in mid to late teens but exact age unknown). I used to ride him as a school horse. This stables is not a riding school so much as a breeding and boarding stables, but they do some lessons. He came to the stables as a rescue horse who had been painfully neglected by his owner. He was very thin and depressed too - some ribs showing. With some hard work, he gained some weight and was looking better at the time I rode him. He was sent away to a big grassy field "fat farm" for three months and it did wonders for him. I left that stables in April 2004 as my instructor left, but visited this horse just yesterday after not seeing him for months. He is much too thin again - his ribs and hip bones are too visible.

My old instructor said this horse needs individual TLC (he is a real people horse and very affectionate), a few feeding supplements and one owner who will work on him and then weight will not be such a problem. Right now he is in the midst of lots of dozens of fancy horses etc., and is used for beginner riders at the stables a lot - he is not getting as much individual attention as he might need in terms of his feeding/emotional needs - he does not have one owner looking out for him.

Questions:
What makes a horse have a propensity to not gain weight and be on the skinny side? Is this a big problem or not in terms of considering a purchase? What types of supplements/feeds are out there to help a horse gain weight?

I can perhaps dig out a photo of him, if that might help you to see his body type and how much the ribs are showing. I'll see if I can find one.

[Standerdbred]

I have a standerdberd that is very hard to keep weight on my friends mom said standerdbreds have high metabolisom maybe throbreds are the same way too I mean thier very simeler:)
hope it helps:D

[Equisgurl]

I'm no expert at this whatsoever, but there are so many supplements out there, its really hard to decide, I think its best to advice with a vet and see what he has to say, Skeeter(I guess youre talking about him, right?:) ), might need some other supplements, like for joints, etc.. since he is an older horse. I heard farnam weight builder is a good one.
heres a review on it:
http://www.horsetackreview.com/review-display/94.html

[Grace O'Malley]

Scarlett, how are his teeth? Uneven tooth wear can be a real problem in older horses; he might need extra attention than the standard routine for the lesson horses. Sometimes horses can seem to be eating plenty, but still not gain because they're not grinding it well enough to extract the nutrition. I've seen a couple of horses lose an alarming amount of weight for this reason. If he spills a lot of grain out of the sides of his mouth when he's eating, that's a clue (so I've been told). Also, they eat slower, so for horses fed hay out in a field (common here as the grass dies off quickly in the summer), an older horse who is low on the pecking order might not be getting his fair share.

Of course there's many other possiblilities, and goodness knows, I'm no expert.

Good luck!

Grace

[Big H]

Blue Chip Original is good for weightgain in horses and as it is only fed in small quantities (which is good as over here is is £34 a bag) it doesn't cause any hyperactivity.

[Mehitabel]

there could be many reasons why he is thin.

teeth problems is the obvious one, and what i generally think of first - if he can't chew properly, then he can't break down the fibrous food and it won't get digested so the feed value is wasted.

if he's cold, he'll be using his bodyfat to keep warm.

depression will also affect appetite, and if he's not hungry he won't be eating.

if he's in pain from something, like a chronic back problem or anything like that, that'll stop him gaining weight as well, just lik people it wil grind him down and he will suffer physically.

if he's stressed about anything, if his management doesn't suit him, he's in when he wasnts to be out or vice versa, he will fret weight off. my pony hates being in and has been on box rest recently for lameness, and has lost enough weight that her saddle no longer fits. since you say you don't think he's suited to the school lifestyle, this might be a cause.

then there are internal problems like thyroid etc, which isn't an area i know much (anything) about.

if you're seriously thinking about buying him, then you'd be sensible to get him thoroughly checked over by a vet for the possible causes before you buy him - it might be that this is a long ongoing problem and there's not much that can be done - or it could be something as simple as teeth and a bit of TLC to make him happier.

[virtuallyhorses]

Can you check what his current feeding and work regimes are? If he puts on weight when given the opportunity you may just find that he loses weight only when it can be reasonably expected - i.e. too much work (or too little) with too few calories.

A photo would also be helpful - you may find that your expectations of 'what's right' just isn't the same as the current owners. People who are used to eventers and endurance horses are used to them being fit and healthy at what is called bodyscore - '4' (moderately thin) whereas a pleasure hack or perhaps even a dressage horse might be seen more at 5+ which is a bit plumper.

This is my horse at the moment - I have just started to get used to him this thin - seeing ribs, poverty lines and hips is not something I'm used to on Imp. But he is in great condition, fitter than ever before, great muscle over his hindquarters and abs! and it is simply that he is getting long rides during this winter and that I'm used to him being a well fed couch potato (relatively).

[Scarlett 001]

Here is a photo. He was like this several years ago when he arrived, then he was fattened up and in pretty good shape last winter, and since last May he has shed those pounds again.

Around April 2004 when I left the stables, my instructor left (my reason for leaving) and another horse trainer also left soon after. Three people who kept close eyes on Skeeter were no longer there. I have e-mailed this trainer to find out what else had been done to get the weight gain and to see what else she can tell me about its possible causes. No reply yet though as I just wrote yesterday. She once told me he was low on the pecking order in the fields though (could this be a problem for getting enough hay perhaps?). I also hear he was being used a lot for lessons and jumping quite a bit so perhaps exercise vs. caloric intake became a problem.

What about riding a thin horse? Should one even do that? Obviously a rigorous regime would be problematic, but what if he was only ridden about twice a week or so to keep him in condition while he gained weight - would this be ok?

[Scarlett 001]

Another photo at another angle.

[chev]

The thing that would worry me looking at those pics is the pattern of weight loss. If you look at him from mid ribs down he actually just looks fit - it looks more to me like there's some serious muscle wastage along his spine and neck. Definitely have him checked by a vet.

Es has really covered anything else I could add. I do remember an ex racer at the yard where I worked - an Arab, gelded in his late teens, who always looked like that. He was just 'broken down' - he'd just had such a hard life and career that he never physically recovered. He was always active and ridden - we just had to make sure that his saddle was very carefully fitted, and he had sheepsking padding to keep him comfortable. He looked worse than the horse in your pics, the whole time I was there, which probably amounted all told to around eight years.

Does he gain condition when resting, and lose it in work? I'd be thinking some pain issues somewhere.

[Mehitabel]

yep, looking at his topline, it looks significantly worse than his barrel - those ribs are visible, but he's not emaciated by any means if you don't look along his spine.

if he's low on the pecking order, then he may be getting chased off his hay in the field - do the staff always put out at least two more piles of hay than there are horses?

i'd be happy doing gentle work on him in that condition - once i was 100% sure that there was no back/saddle pain.

[Scarlett 001]

You are correct in that the spine looks to be more of a problem. It is known he has some back problems - there is sure muscle wastage and I recall a couple of vertebrae may have some problems - we always had to put a big huge comfy pad under his saddle for his back. He did not have a custom fitted saddle, which he likely needs.

With all these issues, it seems being used frequently as a school horse and jumping quite high might just be too hard a life for a guy like this. I would of course have him vetted, but if I bought him he would be used for flatwork only. Crazy perhaps to consider him with these issues (not to mention he is now recovering from a tendon injury which is an issue in itself... :( ), but I just love him and his heart so very much. The thing is he is not officially up for sale, so if I don't buy him his life as a school horse will eventually continue on (although I know the stable owner well and she may well sell him to me). I am worried how long he could go on without more TLC in his life.

I am a pleasure rider, but interested in a dressage-based seat and approach to riding - don't want to jump and feel no need to move to higher levels of dressage. To me the bonding with a super guy like this is as important as the riding. A few rides a week are all I am after and then extra visits to cuddle and hang out. He is a sheer delight to be around. He's had a rough life and yet is so sweet and affectionate with people - he also has a wee cheeky side to him despite all this, which I just adore.

Thanks for comments given so far - most helpful. Any further thoughts on his weight and spine issues would be appreciated. Thanks! :)

[Mehitabel]

it sounds like you might be the perfect owner for this guy. he looks lovely, by the way - forgot to say in last post - very like my ex-horse round the face and in the colour.

[Scarlett 001]

Originally posted by Es
it sounds like you might be the perfect owner for this guy. he looks lovely, by the way - forgot to say in last post - very like my ex-horse round the face and in the colour.

Thank you! Somehow when I am with him I don't notice the spine so much as his cute face and eyes and his nice legs!!! :D I was kind of shocked when I saw how he looked in the photo to be honest. Love is blind I guess. ;)

I am diligently doing homework on his weight and tendon injury - and now I will look into his spine issue too. I want to be sure I know what I am getting into re health - his personality is just superb and he is as bombproof as they come so no worries on that front!!! He ain't going anywhere for a few months as his leg injury heals, so I have time to do my research!

[Equisgurl]

Just wanted to wish best of luck for you two, like Es said, seems to me like you would be the perfect owner for Skeeter, besides I dont think he looks that old, best to get the vet to check his teeth to tell his age and see if he has any dental issues. That would be so awesome if you bought him..I wish I could buy Doccie, a horse from my previous barn, hes such a sweetie pie.:)

[virtuallyhorses]

He looks great to me - his condition looks good in those photos - fairly typical of a TB in work. The issues with his topline are probably just because he has beginners onboard most of the time - he won't be working correctly and therefore he's not muscling up in that area. You may also find that his saddle fit isn't being checked as often as necessary.

But I wouldn't hesitates to buy or ride a horse that looks like this. Take a look at photos of endurance horses and eventers - this is typical condition for them (give or take a little on the topline) - our perception of a horses condition is often based on us seeing our 'fat' horses :D There doesn't seem to be anything in this horse's history that would overduely concern me - if you want him fatter, work and feed will do that for you.

Take a look at this site http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/conditionscore.shtml as well as a photographic bodyscore theres a number of articles on performance vs bodyscore which may be helpful.

[virtuallyhorses]

forgot to say - its important to also take conformation into account. This boy looks like he's got a slightly low set neck and isn't naturally huge across the loins (fairly typical of the breed) - yes, you can hide this with fat but that's not necessarily a good thing. Some hillwork would probably do wonders for his topline.

[galadriel]

I'd agree with the muscle wastage and also would point out the little bump in his spine just behind the ribs; check out:
http://lorienstable.com/services/fitting/half-tree/

The shape of his back is something I keep seeing in ex-racers particularly, but also many horses who have worn a badly fitting saddle at some point. I have seen horses who've been wearing decently fitting saddles, or even been retired completely, for years--who still have the same shape. This isn't something that goes away on its own, or when you stop using whatever caused it. You have to directly address it.

That's not to say it's an unsolveable problem :) The results I'm seeing in my own horses (OTTB's) from therapeutic massage are incredible, and delightful. I can see physical changes, and I can feel differences in under saddle performance. I highly recommend the therapeutic massage for muscle issues.

He's got a really sweet face and such a soft eye. I can see too that you're really attached to him :) It sounds like he could do what you want from him. And possibly you could help him rehab to the point where he'll be a lot more sound for many more years than he would be otherwise.

One thing you might want to look into, if you're serious about buying him:
http://www.equineracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ERSI&category_Code=k1

Equine Racing Systems (in the link above) is the website for one of horse racing's more well-known exercise physio/consultants (Tom Ivers); he has even written a very well-known book specifically on bowed tendons ("The Bowed Tendon Book"). [It doesn't seem to be listed on the site, so I'd guess it's out of print at this time.] There is a lot of information there, and also a few products which have been shown to really help heal bowed tendons properly. They're electrical stimulation machines, and are getting more well known in physiotherapies; I had a TENS myself when my back was really bad last winter.

Knowing that you would be interested in Skeeter, you may wish to become involved in his tendon treatment. You can help to ensure that he recovers well.

[LouiseEdwards]

he's a very pretty boy!

Does your yard currently have a worming routine?

A belly but lack of weight could suggest a worm problem. It might be worth getting a worm count done...

I don't really know a lot about thin horses, as i've mainly had natives! sorry!

[Scarlett 001]

Originally posted by galadriel
I highly recommend the therapeutic massage for muscle issues.


I found someone who can do equine massage near Calgary, but the costs could mount up - how often would he need this? Could I learn to do it myself, without heading down to Florida to take a course with you? :)

He has got a soft eye, hasn't he? He just wants to be loved. Given that keeping him boarded, shoed and basic vet care would take up most of my funds, I just feel like maybe I could not afford all the extras he should get (at least I could not afford them right away - maybe in a year or two). But then I think that if I don't take him, rather than love and a few gentle rides, he will be worked hard and often and without one person to love. I am also worried about the tendon injury. I will do my homework as you suggest and read up on it some more and see what I can do. Would I need an ultrasound prior to purchase to ensure it has healed? I don't think that they even know if it was a tendon strain or rupture...

Also Galadriel or anyone else - does one have to worry about arthritis in the hock etc. for an older boy like this who has done jumping? Would you have him x-rayed before considering buying him or could a vet tell this type of thing (at least to some degree) with a full pre-purchase exam? So much to think about!

I am going to visit him tomorrow which I hope will cheer him up! Carrots, cuddles and a stroll to eat fresh grass will likely go over well!

[galadriel]

There are a number of schools which offer courses on equine massage, but I don't think any of them are inexpensive. There are several books out, but learning this sort of thing from a book would be really tough; the hands-on parts of learning were exceptionally useful.

I know that farriers, and even vets, are often willing to let people ride around with them to observe. Perhaps the equine massage therapist would let you watch him/her work a few times, and possibly even explain what s/he's doing: which muscles s/he's working on, how the muscles should feel, how they do feel, and what s/he can do about it. In combination with independent anatomy study, that might help you learn enough to at least do some good on a horse with a specific known problem.

I know you don't want to do jumping; how much DO you want to do in your few rides a week? Would you let it put you off if the vet tells you that he has significant problems, but should be able to handle light work for a few more years?

I would say that it's pretty certain that he has some arthritis, likely in his knees as well as his hocks (at least, and possibly noticeable arthritis in other joints too). That doesn't necessarily mean anything; almost any horse in its teens has arthritis to some degree, particularly if it's OTTB, but it doesn't necessarily restrict performance & ability.

If I were taking him on as a horse to love and cuddle and ride a little, I probably wouldn't do a full vetting, with x-rays and ultrasound. However, I already have horses I can ride if one horse isn't sound. From your comments, I'd guess that, if he doesn't stay sound, finding another horse to ride might be a financial stretch for you. So what are your priorities? A horse that you can love that you can ride? Or a horse that you adore that you may or may not be able to ride?

If what you need is that any horse you buy must stay sound, you will probably want to get as much information as possible. If nothing else, it will help you as you work to keep him sound and even try to improve his health. And there may be things found in a full-vetting-with-everything that no one knows yet; such things might be very important for such a decision.

But if what you really want is a horse to adore, and riding your own horse isn't so much of a priority (ie, you can find another horse to ride, or you would be happy enough to have a horse even if it means that you can't ride)...then you might be all right without it. The thing to consider is that if he does have any hidden issues, or if his known issues are worse than they look, then maintaining his health may be a lot more expensive than you estimate. Again, full-vetting-with-everything could help you make reasonable estimates for maintenance costs and help you find out what you can do to keep things from getting more expensive in the future.

[pandapotato]

Hey!

I'm in the same boat as you in that I am in the midst of purchasing an underweight thoroughbred! Mine is not severe, but defintely enough that I am putitng him on a weight gain program. His weight loss is a result of his previous owner not being able to afford better food. She was feeding him grass hay and he was on pasture board. I plan to put him on Alfalfa, grain & weight gain supplement. His backbone, from the withers to the rump sticks up....so much that I feel sorta bad riding him at all. I noticed yesterday he had to very small spots that it looked like the hair was thinning, which I am wiling to bet was because his backbone supports more then its fair share of the wight, and the saddle must be rubbing it. His ribs do stick out more then normal, but not horribly so.... just enough that you notice them.

Despite his "underweight" status, I've fallen in love with him and Just HAVE TO HAVE HIM! I'm getting a good deal on him and can't wait to see how great he's going to look! I'm going to pretty much stay off him for atleast a good month or two while I fatten him up. Instead, I'll just give him so much attention he won't know what to do!

I think if the horse you are thinking about is healthy enough to be ridden as a lesson horse, with little individual attention as to his weight and condition, you shouldnt' worry quite as much. It sounds like you love this horse no matter what he looks like, and you won't be pushing his limits.

Definitely talk to a vet first. Most barns try to organize vet visits so that the barn call ($30-50+) is split between everyone. If not, ask around and see if anyone is calling in a vet for anything, and try to geton board. Have the vet check his teeth and give you some advice. It should be a cheap vet bill, and you can do this before shelling out all the money to buy him and board him.

After all that, do what your heart tells you. Sounds like this horse needs you as much as you want him! At the very least it seems as though if things dont work out with you, he would be marketable as a lesson horse (to a barn that won't work himi too hard).

And for what its worth, I wouldn't trade my new horse for Five fat ones. Lol.

[eml]

I agree with the others that it is his topline which is most problematic but if he is being used in the school he may well have resorted to working with his head in the air to protect his back which because of the muscle wastage will be quite weak and this has led to further loss of topline muscle. The rest of him weightwise is on the low but not desperate side. I bought one last year kept permenantly rugged for three months for fear of anyone seeing his condition which was much worse than this.

As an older TB he will probably have several health issues but as long as you are clear with your vet what you expect to do with him and the vet is happy he can do that work you should be ok.

My only worry would be that you want to do dressage. Although many older horses are still sound and comfortable with being ridden even with arthritic conditions their paces may be altered in away that a dressage judge describes them as unlevel and eliminated them. (our 19 yo TB with spavins still goes XC and wins open SJ but in two dressage competitions this year has been called unlevel)