friendly game - with plastic bag

[cvb]

as a carry-over from conversation on another thread about "Friendly" games - and also relating to "controlled catastrophe" exercise...

I have been doing a bit of work with a plastic bag to take things a bit further with my mare.

When plastic bag is just a plastic bag, its fine - she'll stick her nose in it, thoroughly explore, and I can rub her all other with it.

But on the end of the carrot stick, its a different thing... and MUCH scarier.

First time I did this, I didn't actually get the bag on her - just close. But she was quite relaxed, soft and happy to cuddle up. This was a REALLY windy day so I was quite happy with this.

Second session (last night) I got the bag on her to play friendly (bag on stick). She didn't really relax - but did stand still for it. I then did a few of the games - as usual but with bag on the end of stick. She was very reluctant to move at all. On sideways game, she did suddenly have an "oh my goodness" moment like she'd suddenly spotted it - and shot away. But then was ok again.

So I'm reflecting on the "still" reaction and wondering how to progress. Its doesn't feel like a "good" stillness. My feeling is that I need to get her actually relaxed - rather than just accepting/tolerating it. (She wasn't held close and could have moved away at any time).

So I think its just more of the same ?

Any comments ? (Harry ?)

[Miriam]

I'd probably say you need to spend a little more time on this one. Don't rush it let her take it at ther own speed rather than yours. My pony is comforable with being rubbed but will not tolerate it flapping.

We once did this with Copz (sorry Jenn) and he flipped. Poor lad stood cowering in the corner of the stable. it jsut meantthat we had to take a step back again

[katieB]

I would definitley carry on with the Friendly game with the bag on stick until she is standing happy and relaxed. I agree that the standing still should be happily standing still rather than just tolerating it, it makes it easier to move on to the next phase (more games) Go back to approach and retreat, same as you did with any tickly spots and once she is totally happy with that, then try some more games.
I'll be interested to see how Ellie reacts to this now, she is ok when I hold the plastic bag but ive not tried it on the carrot stick yet :)

[Esther.D]

I'd go with more of the same, just gradually. Rupert was a bit like that at first with the flag but as he realised it wasn't going to actually eat him he relaxed a lot. :)

[cvb]

good - thats reassuring. After she did her OMG moment, we slowed back down. And did a lot of normal friendly inbetween as well.

For all she is bossy and a show-off and so on, this mare seems to find the world a very worrying place and needs a lot of reassurance and support.

The thing that impressed me was that she did seem to have made the decision that it must be ok cos I said it was ok. (Between session 1 and session 2). Even tho she didn't relax.

Though it may be a different question to translate this from ground to ridden, as she is a lot happier when she can see you in front of her.


Still, I'll do more with the placcie bag before we move on to flags and tarpaulins and so on. We'll walk before we run ;)

[Esther.D]

Though it may be a different question to translate this from ground to ridden, as she is a lot happier when she can see you in front of her

Rupert is the same, in fact he doesn't even need to see you, he is happy being longreined in blinkers with me behind him, but the confidence all ebbs away when I get on his back..

[Harry Hobbes]

Use Advance and Retreat, always retreating just before the mare gets too excited (in and out in two or three seconds), coupled with a ggrrrraaaaadddddddduuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllll introduction of larger and additional objects over time. The objective is to push the tolerance envelope gradually, building greater tolerance, without pushing so far as to cause the horse to panic. (In Parelli's words, allow the horse time to switch to left-brain thinking.) Do this enough, and the mare will get to a point where she no longer is unduly concerned about the things you do about or on her.

Eventually, you should hang items from the saddle (adding one at a time, over time) and perform normal ground training exercises (such as the Severn Games) while she is wearing her accoutrements. Ensure that you have hold of her 12-foot lead rope as you introduce objects, so that you may stop her from leaving (break the hindquarters over) if she jumps. Do this often until she comes to view the accoutrements in the same light as her saddle.

The photo below was taken after about two hours of training. She's having a siesta.

Best regards,
Harry

[Harry Hobbes]

Opps! Someone woke her up.

[Harry Hobbes]

After she did her OMG moment, we slowed back down. And did a lot of normal friendly inbetween as well.
THe other thing to do is to have her move her feet after every retreat. Just ask her to step forward; or circle around (Circle Game); or back up (Yo-Yo- Game); whatever. Moving her feet clears her mind (causes her to switch to left-brain thinking.)

Madison did a lot of moving of her feet to get to where she accepted all of this.

Best regards,
Harry

[TBEventer2002]

OMG, Harry, that is too cute! You've done quite a lot with that blessed little horse! :) Mind if I inquire if you are anywhere near Ohio? ;)

[Harry Hobbes]

Mind if I inquire if you are anywhere near Ohio? Used to be; in Detroit. Grew up there. The family is still in that area though (and Toledo).

But, I left the Big Bucks behind to crawl through the Montana mud and wind, under the Big Sky, and train horses. Call it my "third childhood".

Best regards,
Harry

[Catbaloo]

Try screwing the bag up really thight at 1st, like a little ball on the end of the stick. Then when she has settled with that, pull a bit of the bag out and progress like this. See how you get on.

[cvb]

hmmm - yes. Love those piccies. I guess I should remind myself how lucky I am. Apart from this spin-depart thing, Fi is very easy to do and very quick to learn. Which means we haven't really had to have long sessions on anything.

I need to consider that it will take a few "airmiles" before we sort as big a problem as this, and it may require as to go back a bit and challenge a few assumptions before we can move foward again.

Hey Harry - Fi went out in the same field as the cows for the first time in a long while. You'd have been amused - she sort of sidled her way up to them. All the while pretneding she wasn't really.... They are last year's calves and she's been watching them over the fence for ages. I think she wants to join in when they play ;) Now she got to go say hi properly ! There's so much grass that she only got an hour out there. But by the end of the hour all 3 horses were grazing in the herd of cows :) I'll make a cow horse out of her yet !

[Harry Hobbes]

I'll make a cow horse out of her yet ! cvb,

If you wish to build solid skills and behaviors in her, then cow work is just the ticket. It give the horse a job to do (rather than riding circles in arenas.)

Training on cows is a great job for any horse; because it gives them a job to do, outside, with other domestic animals, and it's something with which they can realize their success.

I suggest that you train her to "track cows". (This is a job that the horse does in order to get the cowboy into position to rope a cow. It is up to the horse to get the cowboy into proper position, and to keep him/her there.)

The objective is to train your horse to continuously follow the cow just behind (say about ten feet behind) and off of the cow's left hip, so that you can just see the cow's left eyeball. (If the cow was to stand still, and your horse walk straight forward, the horse's right shoulder would just miss the cow's left hip.)

When trained, you indicate the cow to track by riding up to one, and your horse then continuously tracks the cow, maintaining proper position and distance, without any further cues from you, no matter where the cow goes, until you actually halt your horse.

Here's how:

1. Saddle up, and warm her up for about ten minutes with trotting (straight, circles, and figure eights.)

2. Pick out a particular large calf or steer, and trot your horse over to the critter. (Don't do this with milk cows, infirm or elderly cows; only with beef cattle or young cattle not yet milkable: youngsters that are healthy enough that they will not be damaged by running.)

3. As you approach, the cow should move away; steer your horse after the cow; but, don't increase speed; stay at a trot.

4. As the cow runs off to evade, you maintain a nice constant trot and point your horse after the cow. (The cow may initially outrun your horse, and that's okay; because, the cow will not outlast your horse.)

5. Whatever the cow does to evade you, such as diving back into the herd, you just ignore the other cows and continue after the selected cow. (This teaches your horse to focus on the job at hand: that particular cow.)

6. As the cow tires of running, it will slow down to a trot; but, it will continue to evade by turning hither and yon. You steer your horse to keep the horse in the tracking position.

7. If the cow just stops, then ride up to its' left hip and shhhhhss it onward (or slap your thigh with your hand, to drive it on.)

8. Wherever the cow goes, you steer your horse to put your horse in the tracking position. (This is where your horse learns the position where it's supposed to be; and stay.)

9. After some time (a few minutes), your horse will turn with the cow before you have a chance to cue it to follow the cow. (Your horse has anticipated that you want it to follow the cow.) Let the horse turn with the cow, and pet your horse while continuing to track.

10. After the horse successfully tracks the cow for three or four turns without your cues, stop your horse square, everybody relax, and stand there petting your horse. (This is you telling your horse that it did the correct thing.)

Then, go and find another cow, and repeat (either this session or the next.)

If at any time, the cow looks like it'll run through a fence, just stop and let it settle down, then resume. We don't ever want to run cows through fences.

This is great fun; for the "cowboy" AND for the horse. Just pick out cows that are healthy and capable of moving fast; and, those that are not milk cows.

A good cow horse is a joy to behold.

Best regards,
Harry

P.S. My new mare will learn to track (and sort) cows, and to hold cows with a lariat, in due time (probably later this Autumn), even though I expect to position her as a Dressage prospect. The cow and roping work will significantly stabilize her emotionally and mentally.

[laura jeanne]

Harry, that sure sounds like fun!

[Kate F.]

If you have a round pen or similar safe space, I would try doing this without the halter. When the horse is free to move it is more likely to express its real feelings about the plastic bag or whatever. As Harry said, moving the feet makes the horse feel more secure - but sometimes when the halter is on, they feel they cannot "escape". They suppress the instinct to move their feet and try to put up with what we are doing even though they haven't really accepted it and are tense underneath.

Start just by hooking the horse on and stroking it all over. Then have the bag in your hand, but don't yet touch the horse with it and carry on stroking. Move gradually up to touching the horse with the plastic, and see where the point is that it has to leave. When it leaves, that's OK - don't put on pressure - just let it go around and hook it on again and start at the beginning again.

This way, whent he horse can stand there with nothing on its head and accept whatever you do, you know it really has accepted it, and isn't just putting up with it.

Good luck with it and don't worry if some days it goes better than others. That's also horse instinct - just because the bag didn't eat it yesterday doesn't mean it won't eat it today!

[laura jeanne]

If only I had a cow
and a rope
well, and a horse . . .

[Harry Hobbes]

If only I had a cow
and a rope
well, and a horse . . . Just head out southwest of Sugarland; or out Westheimer. There's lots out that-a-way.

Harry

[laura jeanne]

Harry

Do I detect a former Houstonian? Have you been watching the Astros in the playoffs?

I live in the northwest of Houston where you do see lots of cows and horses but unfortunately, I don't have any. My OH was a cowboy out in the llanos in Venezuela after high school for about a year and did lots of that stuff. Rode all day, roped horses and drove cows- he misses it! They used to tie the end of the rope to the horses' tails because of not having a saddle horn. He has some neat pictures. He also spent a year in Bozeman at Montana State.

[Harry Hobbes]

Do I detect a former Houstonian? Have you been watching the Astros in the playoffs?
Not a baseball fan; but, I used to live at The San Antone Rose, Cowboys, Texas, and a few other west side dance halls, where dancing (and drinking) was an art form. And, of course, take the relatives over to Gilleys, when they came to town. All this was back in the early Eighties when the domestic oil industry was still running in high gear.

Do the ladies still dress their long necks with a bar napkin? (I always thought that was nothing short of an elegant way to drink a beer.)

Edit: And is Molinas still serving those world-class Tacos Al Carbon?

Tell your OH that I now hang out along Springhill Road. He'll know where that is. I try to stay out of Bozeman, because of the massive amounts of vehicle traffic (all those touristos and the population boom, you know :o ); although I've been known to ride horses down 7th Avenue to Big R (now known as "Murdocks"), just for the ride.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

Catbaloo, Kate F

Thanks for the comments - but the "plain" bag is not a problem - she shoved her nose right in from the moment I got it out and it can go all over her. And I can crinkle it like crazy and be very noisey. All no problem. Its just on the end of the carrot stick that it becomes "scarey". And yes, the carrot stick by itself is also ok.

And all up to that point she is as laid back as can be. This is very like the more "general" issue of spookiness she has, which is why I'm focusing on it in this way.

We can be as happy as larry, relaxed, calm, content. Then BOOM she spots something, spins, departs. All in treble-quick time.

I think more "controlled catastrophe" is what we need. So that we'll carry on with the plastic-bag-on-stick and then maybe try flag-on-stick and see where we go from there.

Harry - the cattle have moved field so Fi has lost her play mates :(

[Kate F.]

OK - stick is OK and bag is OK - just bag on stick is a problem?

Tie bag onto stick, and hold bag end with the bag folded up small in your hand - and start stroking her like this. Then unfold a bit, but still hold the bag end - so it's like just the bag - but the stick is also coming out of your hand on the other side. Unfold the bag gradually until you are stroking her with the bag on just the end of the stick, then start gradually moving your hand down the stick. If she spooks, go right back to at least a couple of stages before she spooked, where you're sure it's OK - and try again.

This will work. It takes a bit of patience but it's basically like any disensitising exercise. Try to notice what happens just before she spooks. She might flick her eye round to the bag, or swich her tail - there will be some warning that the spook is coming. Try to not push her to the spook point, but go back a few steps in the process when you see the warning.

Good luck, and let me know how you get on!

All the best

[cvb]

Ta ! Presumably you then progress by moving hand down stick so you get closer to the handle end.....

[Kate F.]

Exactly!

Good luck!