This French vs. German thing has my head spinning

[Tootsie4U]

Ok, can someone explain in LAYMAN terms please! :p

The French school doesnt post on any particular diagonal - why? But, then I ask a German school rider "why do you post on the outside foreleg?" and they look at me like they have no idea what Im talking about either!

And, how do the French collect their horses if they ride "the front of the horse"?

[Mehitabel]

what exacrtly do you want to know? why the french don't have a correct diagonal, or why everyone else does?
can#t help on the collecting by riding the front though - didn't know they did, particularly.

[Tootsie4U]

Well, we make a huge deal about posting on the outside fore as it rises. But I overheard someone at the show saying to her student not to worry about her diagonals. She said "Remember, it doesn't matter which diagonal you are on" and they weren't going straight!

I thought it was all about balance. I understand you can purposely rise to the inside fore to force the horse to carry the weight on that side for training purposes but to just say that it makes no difference baffles me.

It just goes against what I've been taught and it astonishes me that the two are so different but are the same sport.

[IrisSilverMoon]

you may find this article interesting then Tootsie...my riding instructor wrote it awhile back...we are part of the french classical school of riding...:)


Differences Between the French and German School (http://www.classical-equitation.com/index.php/article/articleview/20/1/2)

[Mehitabel]

i found that an interesting read, ISM - but i think it's a bit of a false dichotomy as far as riding in england is concerned, i must admit. is there really that much of a division in riding style in the US? i agree with him that the better educated a rider gets, the more the various theories become similar, definitely.

toots - i don't understand either. not only fdoes it go against what i've beentaught, but also my direct experience - so both my empirical and rational parts!

[Tootsie4U]

Thanks for that Iris. His second to last paragraph is beautiful.

Any idea where I can find more on this idea:

"In the French school resistance is destroyed by the disassociation of resistance from forward movement. The horse is halted and flexions are used at the point of the resistance to eliminate the resistance. The horse is not permitted contracted forward movement. "

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Es
is there really that much of a division in riding style in the US?

As far as my experience goes, most of what I see is German School influenced. My first reaction to seeing that person at the show warming up on the 'wrong' diagonal was :eek: . I didnt know how someone at those upper levels would still not know which is the 'correct' diagonal. Then my boss had to point me straight.

I too agree that as the rider's technicality progresses, the schools probably do overlap. More than one way to cook a duck, or whatever the saying is.

[kelsey]

I agree that there isn't much difference between the various "schools" anymore...there is too much mobility of ideas and people now. Riders and trainers tend to take ideas that have worked for them and pass them on.

My current coach just came back from a long stay in Australia. My old coach was from Germany. I would have to say that my new coach understands (and conveys) the "German" training scale better than my old one.

I have to say that the main reason I post to the outside shoulder is to enable myself to use my aids correctly in rising trot without having to look down ie for forward I squeeze as I sit, for lateral as I rise. Always changing the diagonal would confuse my already addled brain.

[Tootsie4U]

And thats why I was taught to stick with the outside fore as well Kelsey. " On a bend, ask him to step under with his hind as you rise. " I guess just for timing and keeping it straight.

Dressage for the 3rd Millenium has a general article on the two as well.

What I still can't get straight in my head is how the French School obtains any sort of outline if they dont have much in their hands. (All the articles seem to convey the same point - that the French look for lightness by being light. Am I just geting the wrong idea?) Same goes for western pleasure horses who round, go on the verticle, but the reins are looped.

How can you ask for engagement while you're letting it all go out the front end?

[RachelEvent]

What I was told when I was about 10 years old was that French dressage aimed for elegance, German dressage aimed for power. I think some of this probably stems from what horses they were breeding - the anglo arabs are a more elegant type, and the german warmbloods are muscley powerhouses.

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of them as 'schools' entirely, probably best to take what works for you..

Watching french people ride, they appear to have a contact with the rein taut from bit to hand - very light though. In my mind, that is the ultimate goal for my own schooling. I'm not sure exactly how the training of the horse is conducted exactly in france, but I imagine that the horses are used to having a light contact, and have learnt to respond to the very light signals. We have to remember that holding the front end in is not desirable - no matter how hard we pull on the horses front end, it won't physically be keeping them off the forehand and in a collected frame. The reins work as a system of signals, hopefully becoming imperceptable signals as the schooling of the horse is refined. The small signals request the horse to stay collected rather than a constant "floodgate" holding the horse in. The horse doesn't need HOLDING in, it can stay in the rounded position without us pulling away at it! So I guess, through a system of the horse flexing correctly, and then the softening of the riders hands, the horses learn to stay round and engaged whilst there is only the tiniest fraction of tension on the reins.

The german school seems to a have a wonderful scales system, but they do seem to be the tiniest bit more forceful - most likely a misinterpretation of the original masters though.. when I was in germany a lot of people rode daily in draw reins... I don't think you can say that everyone in germany does that, so I think its fair to say that their system has evolved and changed across the country, perhaps negatively in some ways, positively in others.

Rachel xx

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Thanks for that Iris. His second to last paragraph is beautiful.

Any idea where I can find more on this idea:

"In the French school resistance is destroyed by the disassociation of resistance from forward movement. The horse is halted and flexions are used at the point of the resistance to eliminate the resistance. The horse is not permitted contracted forward movement. "

yeah...come take lessons at my barn...;) LOL, we seriously loose points in dressage because we are more french school and out horses have self-carriage. Most of us end up with loosish reins...:o the horse carries himself though! so a tighter rein isn't really needed...

Craig actually does clinics ont he east coast though, i can askif he is going to be doing on in your area anytime soon if you like. I believe they are something like three day intensives with lectures and everything...:)\

there is that much of a division here I think, French school isn't as popular because that's not what wins competitions, they are merging though, but the way my school teaches riding and training you can really see a difference in our methods vs. the german school of thought. even the horses we prefer are different, most of our horses are arabs, TB's and the spanish breeds, they tend to be lighter boned horses and between 15 and 16.2 hh rather than big warmbloods.

the idea of engagement and letting it all go in the front end makes more sense when your horse is incredibley up....this is how you can attain piaffe, you absolutely cannot get this move if you are holding the front end, the horse really has to hold himself. you can use that application to carry it on to other aspects of your riding and what you do.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by IrisSilverMoon
Craig actually does clinics ont he east coast though, i can askif he is going to be doing on in your area anytime soon if you like.

You know, I'd very much like that. Some of the things I've read from him (including your signature) has impressed me.

I was reading the Dressage for the 3rd Millenium website about the two and I must admit, that while I have been trained strictly in the German school, alot of what I see in the French is catching my eye more and more. Perhaps that has something to do with my distaste against far too many German "old school" dressage judges and clinician's that I've had the 'pleasure' of getting to know personally. Of course, Im still learning and sorting out the two, so any additional education I can get on the differences is openly accepted. Is Craig's schedule on that website?

[Tina&Dale]

Well, going to back to why her instructor said that it doesn't matter what diagonal she posted too... maybe she wasn't meaning it as a rule, but rather, don't worry if you get it wrong; think about other things...?

always understood posting to the outside to be a balance issue, i.e. keeping the horse balanced. Potentially it is to do with having a "standard" Rather than posting to whatever leads which requires the rider to have to work out the horses footfalls before asking, by establishing a normal side, one doesn't have to put as much thought in to it, because it become more of a habit or something..

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Is Craig's schedule on that website?

unfortunetely no...the website is a bit of a work in progress now, but Craig is my regular riding instructor and just got back from doing some clinics in sweden, I will ask him when i get the chance, it might not be until next week, but I know he'll at least be around my stable for this month. I will definately let you know.

[eml]

Will tell you more about French school in a while as daughter is off to Saumur tomorrow to study at ENE (French National School of Equitation)

As far as diagonals are concerned I have posted about my exploration of these before and the odd horse that performs better when ridden on the wrong diagonal. I think the ability to feel movement is more important than following the 'leg next to the wall' rule without thought.