what does lungeing actually do?

[jenren!!]

ive just started lungeing my pony with side-reins, as told to by my friend. she says it's a good way of schooling as it encourages my pony to accept the bit and therefore stretch his top line, which seems to be working. what do you think?

X jenny X

[Tangle]

Hi Jenny,

Could you ask your instructor to give you more information about lunging and side reins?

There was a thread a little while back (here (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=36303&highlight=gadget) ), which spent some time on the use of draw reins and the problems they can cause - they tend to ask the horse to tuck his nose in and look pretty but don't ask him to use his quarters, without which he can't really get "on the bit" or develop a proper top line. My understanding is that side reins work in a pretty similar way - the difference being the length of the rein is fixed, which (as far as I can see) increases the potential for incorrect use in many ways.

Please please please please please get someone to explain to you exactly how side reins are working so you can make a more educated decision on whether or not you want to use them on your pony. From what I've read and heard I would be reluctant to use them on any horse because a) I'm not convinced they work and b) I don't think I understand what they do and without that knowledge I could do serious damage.

Is it possible for someone to show you the finer points of lunging? I've seen people lunge just on a lunge cavesson and it's amazing what can be done if you know how :).

[kedwards]

Personally, I don't see longeing in side reins as quite the same thing as riding in draw reins. If adjusted properly, the side reins create a steady contact than can allow the horse to reach into them. Draw reins, in contrast, are entirely dependent upon the hands of the rider using them.

Still, I entirely agree that if you are thinking about using them, it's important to have someone show you how to properly adjust them, as well as how and when to use them.

[galadriel]

The side reins should not be short enough to physically pull the horse into place; just short enough that the horse CAN reach into a contact. That's a bit of difference from draw reins. With side reins the horse isn't forced into anything. If he doesn't want to take the contact he can ignore it without getting all bunched up. All the side reins do is suggest a way of going.

However, if they're too tight, or too loose, or adjusted uncomfortably high or low, or they're making the horse evade, then they're not adjusted properly. As Tangle says, there is a chance that poorly adjusted side reins can cause more problems than they'd ever resolve. It's a good idea to have someone knowledgeable help you--especially since you'll use the side reins at a different length to allow him to get used to the contact, and then adjust them to different lengths depending on what you want to accomplish.

Also, I have a bit more information about basic lunging here:
http://lorienstable.com/articles/handling/300-lunging/
(in answer to: "what does lunging actually do?")

[Elvengirl]

I've never used side reins myself, but I thought I heard or read somewhere that they also aid the horse in balancing on a circle much like the rider would. Not sure though, as I kind of think the lack of a "human" leg and seat aid might mean the horse balances by leaning on the reins?

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
I kind of think the lack of a "human" leg and seat aid might mean the horse balances by leaning on the reins?

When driving, you also don't have a human leg or seat aid. A horse does not need those aids--he needs SOMEthing, but he can certainly balance himself without a rider. He may find it much easier to balance himself without a rider. A horse being driven, lunged with 2 reins, or lunged with side reins may use the suggestion from the contact in determining HOW to balance himself.

The contact may ask him to work "on the bit," it may ask him to stretch forward and down, it may ask him to collect. Usually with side reins you want the first or second; you'd only want actual collection if you're ground driving or long lining, so you can give more aids through the lines.

[jenren!!]

wow, what a fantastic website galadriel! i understand fully about side reins, and how they work, but draw reins i'm not so sure. i tend to lunge my pony for about 15 minutes before i school him a) to warm up, and b) to warm up his top line muscles with the side reins. i find that, when i get on him and start riding, he feels so much more rounded, and using my legs and doing lots of transitions his back legs come more underneath him, and so works with his head carriage. he doesn't come onto the bit fully, he just lowers his head and flexes, that way, as he is quite a muscular pony and finds it hard to properly flex his neck, this will come with time, obviously. i just wondered what you all think of lunging with side reins etc! i put the side reins so it brings his head lower than normal, but i would never EVER use them to force his head onto the vertical. he flexes to get away from the pressure of the side reins, and therefore stretch his top line muscles.

X jenny X

[cvb]

my first temptation was to say that the logic used to suggest side-reins were "bad" could also be used to suggest rein contact from the rider is "bad" - in itself without any further conditions being specified.

And I think this is like any piece of equipment we put on a horse - incorrectly fitted or used, it will cause more problems than it solves.

Draw reins are very different in their design to side-reins. I would not tar all lunging aids (side reins, chambon, de-gogue, pessoa etc) with the same brush.

But in the same way that a harsh and ill-considered rider can cause untold damage to the horse, so can anything else.

Jenren - you say he doesn't come onto the bit fully - what do you mean by this ? If he is not working "through" then I would be worried that you might be developing some "bad" muscles as well as missing an opportunity to develop some good ones !

If you are just saying that the top line is lengthened but he is not in a "collected" outline, this is a very diferent "picture" (and message) than that he is just flexing through neck and poll and nowhere else.

[Tangle]

Hi Jenny,

I'm sorry if I offended you - I never intended to imply you would knowingly harm your pony :o.

I have a tendency to be (overly?) wary of gadgets after watching a young lady who should know a lot better ride her horse for 45 minutes at a time in progressively shorter draw reins. According to her relations he "looks so sweet". To me he looks downright misreable :mad:. And she suposedly loves this horse to bits!

There's a couple of articles I've read: one by Jessica Jahiel (http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/20021109105116.phtml) and another on Dressage for the 3rd Millenium (http://www.kahlin.net/noir/dressyr/tack/gadgets.php#siderein), both of which can give you some information on draw reins. They also both have some opinions on side reins. I think the later site especially is very "all gadgets are bad and you must be evil if you put them near your horse" which I don't agree with. However I can see the logic behind some of the points made, particularly in the stretch versus constraint discussions.

The only thing that worries me in your second post is when you say "he flexes to get away from the pressure of the side reins", which suggests he might be bracing against them rather than stretching into them. That said, if his quarters are more engaged afterwards it suggests the lunging/side reins are helping him :).

[Elvengirl]

Thanks for clarifying my confusion, Galadriel. I never even thought about the aids used when driving! (can you tell I've never had the experience of driving?)

[jenren!!]

thank you for all your comments. my problem is, how do you actually make the back legs work with the head. i know that work on getting the back legs underneath him will bring head carriage gradually, so what do you actually do in order to achieve this? should i continue my lunging? i just worry that side reins help the head carriage, and not the back legs. As i want them both to sort of come at the same time, i'm trying to work on the back legs in my schooling, doing plenty of transitions, lengthening, poles and gridwork i know can help strengthen his back legs as well. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/jenny2004/hello/barnabyme.bmp

here's a picture of him. this was quite a way back and he's got a little better now but i just wondered what you think are the best ways of schooling him, and my riding as well! (soz if it's not a good pic)

X jenny X

[Tangle]

He looks really sweet and it sounds like you've got a pretty good variety of work going already :). It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like your legs/feet might be a little forward of your hips. Looks like you've got a nice line from your elbows to the bit, though :).

If the lunging seems to be helping I wouldn't abandon it - but can you add any lateral work? You can do everything (turn on the forehand, leg yield, shoulder in, etc) as groundwork and they're all really good for getting him to use his quarters. We're doing lots of in hand groundwork at the moment - it's so instructive as you can see what's happening, where the horse is struggling and then can relate it to what you feel when riding. Asking him to bend will help as well - even on the straight.

Hope they help give you some more ideas :)

[galadriel]

Originally posted by jenren!!
i just worry that side reins help the head carriage, and not the back legs.

Right, that's a valid worry. So what you do is you make the side reins long enough that the horse can reach forward into the contact, but is NOT forced into any headset. Leave them long enough that he can totally ignore them if he really wants.

Then, if he does reach forward into the contact, it should be because he is balancing himself and working his back end. All you're doing is providing him with encouragement to hold himself properly; if he doesn't, he will probably ignore the side reins. If he takes up a contact on his own, and seems to be using that contact to relax his own jaw and lift himself off the forehand, it will be *because* he is working in his hindquarters.

When you're riding, you can be more insistent about rein contact, you can force the horse's head into a specific position (not that I recommend it...) In that situation you may end up with a false outline, as you've pulled him in but you haven't gotten his back end working. But if you leave the contact up to the horse while you're simply providing impulsion to move forward and encouragement to work, then IF he takes a contact, it should be because he is using his whole body properly.

[jenren!!]

ok, but how often do you think i should lunge?

XjennyX

[galadriel]

Originally posted by jenren!!
he flexes to get away from the pressure of the side reins, and therefore stretch his top line muscles.

I caught this line just now for the first time.

No, he shouldn't be flexing to get away from pressure; that's the same effect as draw reins. If that's what he's doing, then yes, he may well be simply flexing his neck and not really working his back.

If he's flexing his neck to get away from the pressure, then your side reins may be too short; alternatively, your bit may be too uncomfortable (not all bits fit all horses' mouths).

What you want him to do is to move forward *into* the contact. Doing so will give him a good suggestion of how to get "onto the bit," and help him work out how to balance himself. There should be contact, not slack, in the side reins. When he is getting under himself and really working, you should see:
* Reaching forward into the contact.

* More energy being put into the movement; he should really look like he's moving his body & legs, even if he's not going very fast (slow & balanced is better than rushing & unbalanced).

* Greater flexion of the hock (he can lift his leg higher).

* The hind leg should reach farther under the body when he puts it down. Hopefully his hind leg will reach to the hoofprint from the forehoof, if not farther.

In order to get these while lunging in side reins, you can:
* Make sure that the horse doesn't find the side reins uncomfortable or threatening, such that the horse does not duck behind them. It can help to start off a session with the side reins loose and floppy, then gradually tighten until the horse takes the contact. ("Gradually" would be: send him around a few circuits, then tighten one hole; send him around another few, then tighten another hole; etc. You'll probably want to reverse a few times in there.)

* Make the side reins a comfortable length, such that the horse does not duck behind them.

* Ask for more energy (voice, hand, lunge whip) while at the same time preventing him from actually speeding up--this can be a bit tricky. It's essentially the same as a ridden half-halt:
http://lorienstable.com/articles/riding/900-half-halt/

in that you ask the horse to both slow down, and speed up, at the same time. You get a horse who's going the same speed but moving with more energy at that speed. He's more balanced, he's moving forward, and he's really using his back.

---

If your horse is not used to using his hindquarters, really working through his back, then it will take a lot out of him. Those muscles are long and heavy, and using them can quickly tire him out or even make him feel like he's been overworked. Early sessions should only be a few minutes in each direction, with plenty of time to stretch.

If he feels he has to keep working and he's getting fatigued, he may get hollow and start evading; he may get cramps in his back/hindquarter muscles. Try to be sure that you stop BEFORE he gets fatigued, so that he never associates this kind of work with discomfort. Allow him lots of time to stretch out. (I like to unclip the side reins and fasten them, temporarily, to the other side of the surcingle or saddle--they may flop a bit but that lets the horse really get loose.) Stretching will help him keep from cramping and relieve stiffness from using muscles unusually hard.

For a horse learning to use his back properly, I don't think I'd lunge more than every other day, and always always pay close attention to his energy level; stop the session before he gets uncomfortable. Myself, I would probably start with lunging every 3rd day (and riding in between, with the same attention to his energy level and same allowance for stretching).

[jenren!!]

wow thanks galadriel for all that fantastic advice - the website was helpful too. So when i lunge him, shall i work him without the side reins first and then put them on or put loose side reins on at the start and gradually tighten them as i go along? should the side reins be the length of how my pony carries his head normally or a little shorter? i find your bit about half-halting when lungeing interesting - it seems quite complicated. is there a specific method or does your method of doing this totally depend on what he listens to and responds to?

sorry about all the questions but i need to get my head round this completely cos obviously as you said i dont want to be doing things wrong and making my pony bad too - that's the opposite of what i want!

thanks again

X jenny X

[galadriel]

I've typically put the side reins on very very loose (lots of slack), then gradually tighten throughout a session. First time, I would end with the side reins still slack. Second, third times, I might get a bit closer. I wouldn't ever use it as tight as:
the length of how my pony carries his head normally

I might come close but they would still be a hole or three longer than that. Remember, he needs to reach *forward* into contact; he needs room to move forward. I would put the side reins on when he's standing at rest, making sure that there is enough room for his neck relaxed & not tucked.

He will probably lift his neck a bit when asked to move, particularly if you can work out the half halts :) but you should never try to pull him into that shape; let him find it himself.

I think using a half-halt on a lunge really depends on the aids the horse is used to accepting. I am currently lunging a number of horses on a regular basis; for one, I barely move my arm away from my body to urge her forward. For another, I'm constantly lashing the lunge whip in the direction of her hindquarter. The rest are all in between, and they all respond so-so to voice commands (the main reason for this lunging in the first place).

For most of these horses, moving my forward arm horizontal from my body works to check their speed. A couple may respond better to lifting my arm over my head. All of them, of course, respond to me moving out in front of the "imaginary line" from the horse's shoulder to the center of the lunge circle.

All these horses seem used to trotting around on the lunge; I am trying to convince them to walk. They tend to go from trot to stop then back to trot, and I want WALK. So I have to balance just the right amount of "go" with just the right amount of "stop" to convince them that YES, I really DO want a walk. It takes a different amount of gesture for each horse. If your horse already has a gesture which means "slow," and already understands a gesture which means "go," then using those will probably get you the best results.