engage from behind help !!

[gingerbreadman]

How can i get my horse to engage his hindquarters mroe as he tends always to lean on the forehand !!

He is still hollow in front of the withers which I have been told means he is not working properly and the physio today tells me he isnt engaging his back end at all.

Now he migt have something that hurts somewhere which might be a bit to do with it as he is having some probs at the mo, but I cant get him to have impulsion all the time, its always me that ends up half dead !!

please help anyone out there

[ToNi T EQ]

If you are speaking of the same horse that may possible have a back issue, that could be a big part of the reason he dosent want to use those hind- end muscles. ..Another thing you may want to try is some vertical flexion which entails bridging of the reins...bascially you shorten them up half way up his neck, and then bring them to his shoulders. if he backs up at first thats ok, but you want to see him bend at the poll and tuck his head to his chest.... as soon as he does that release the reins and give him a rub to tell him thats what you want...practice that until you can do it at a walk and then trot, and eventually a canter..you will see that he will to begin to tuck his head every time you squeeze your reins and hold them....this basically is the same principal as using side reins, but less intrusive..and you can give him breaks in the pressure whenever you feel the need, and also reward him, as opposed to the constant pressure given by the side reins....the whole point of these exercises is to get the horse to round his spine and tuck his hind quarters under his body..hence engaging them...this head position will prevent him from relying on the forehand muscles for impulsion...also to develope the muscles of the hind quarters...never, ever let your horse pick up the canter from a fast trot..always give a nice firm half halt and then your leg aid to canter, and dont throw away your reins..

[gingerbreadman]

Thanks a lot for that advice, I must admit he always likes to run into a fast extended trot first its always a battle on trying to get a good transition.

But i will certainly try to do this a lot better and will also try bridging his reins more so to pull him in a bit

thanks again

tina

ps still dont know whats wrong with him, not stumbled too much lately but still not right

[ToNi T EQ]

I hope he feels better whatever it may be that is wrong...if anything, these exercises will strenghten his back so you may even end up fixing whatever is wrong.....the fact that he hasnt tripped is as good sign:D ...just keep a positive attitiude....hope everything works out!

[gingerbreadman]

thanks I will do, hope it improves and can get him right bless him, I hate to see horses unhappy, having said that even with whatever is wrong, he is so good not playing me up or anything.

aaaahhh

thanks again

will keep you informed.

[chev]

If there's something wrong surely the first step has to be to sort that out? :dunno: If the something that isn't right is what's hampering his engagement, whatever you do he'll still have problems. Pulling his nose in won't lighten his forehand or get his quarters under him, and he'll just end up building muscle in all the wrong places as he compensates for whatever's bugging him.

If you're certain he can engage his quarters in spite of his back problem (and I am doubtful), you need to use exercises that will bring his hind legs underneath him to engage his quarters. Use poles - walk and trot over them - that will start to get him using his back end. Lift your hands too - the higher you raise your hands, the more it will encourage him to raise his head. 'Think' light - keep your weight back, and down through your legs - very often if a horse is on the forehand because we end up supporting their weight we end up leaning forwards into it - which makes things worse. Make sure you're supporting your own weight in the saddle, so he can work on his own.

Go back to working from the ground to - longreining over poles is one of the best ways to get a horse to use himself properly, and also makes it much harder for him to lean on you.

As Toni mentioned, half-halts are also good - they shift the weight back onto the hindquarters and off the bit. Make sure you keep your leg on so you don't lose impulsion though. It's a bit like balancing a manual car on the clutch - you have to balance forward movement between leg and hand. If you can use your leg to create impulsion from behind, and use your rein to stop that impulsion from just thundering onto the forehand, you effectively move the weight upwards - and lighten his forehand.

I do think the problem won't be resolved until his physical issues are sorted though. Good luck with him. :)

[gingerbreadman]

Thanks for that advice, i have had a chat with the vet last night who has ruled out any problems as such.

thanks again

[EventingRed]

if your horses conformation is downhill i wouldnt do this, but if it is just a case of downhillness this would work

have you ever considered stretching your horse (while riding)?? this alows them stretch out their neck and back and open up their sholders. it will also, in time, build a stronger topline. this will help him carry himself so that he is not "falling" going streight down. once you have accomplished the balance, lots of transitions and time will get the horse to rock back and sit down. its alot of "new" work so when you start, make them 25-30 min workouts. have fun hope i helped

red

[gingerbreadman]

He is very grumpy but all in all ok


will keep you all posted

thanks a bunch

[Tina&Dale]

Ok.. and now I'm going to come along and disagree with all of the advice!! lol Don't you hate people like me! ;)

Hmm, it's not because I can completely with a confident and sound argument say that the advice given won't work and will in fact cause damage, but I certainly do agree that it will...

If I have understood all the suggestions right…

I would firstly say that the only thing you will achieve with Toni's suggestion is a tense horse that is bending his neck, not right over his topline. If you sit on a horse bareback, you can easily feel the horses back come up underneath you when he is rounded correctly. By "pulling" a horse into a frame it may indeed appear that s/he is round from where you’re sitting though you will feel that this is not actually the case. As a general comment, you will not get a horse into a true frame by pulling on the reins; you must push the horse into the contact. I know everyone says that, but it is true. If you’ve had difficulty in the past with the horse just going faster, than it is because he is not correctly “on the aids”.. To achieve this you must ensure that you move through the training scale and achieve each step before moving on – see down for this.

I would also discourage you from using Chev's suggestion, as raising your hands is not necessary and it doesn't matter how high your horse carries his/her head. The height of your horses head when riding will not put your horse on his hindquarters. A horse can have a high head carriage and still be on the forehand.

I think EventingRed was on the right track when she said stretch the horse whilst you are riding it. I’m sure you’ve heard of riding “forward and down” and I really think it is very important and a great technique (if done properly). But this won’t really help you engage your horse’s hindquarters.

The use of trot poles to get your horse to engage his hindquarters is also not of any benefit as it simply does not do this. Your horse may pick up his feet, and he may even extend a little, but a horse can pick his feet and achieve extension without engagement of the hindquarters.

My personal opinion is that as with any riding, if it’s done properly any horse should achieve a level on engagement. Now when I say that, I mean the rider must ask for it, and the horse must be able to actually work in frame.

I could babble on and on, but I won’t because I’m not really qualified to give this kind of advice and besides, I’m assuming from some of your other posts I’ve read you know a lot about riding anyway. Though, I would refer you to this website and recommend this book.

Website - *Click here* (http://www.kahlin.net/noir/dressyr/trainingscales/trainingscales.php)

Book *Click here* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0851317537/qid=1097596061/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_2_1/002-4434170-8381635)

As mentioned before, here is the training scale
The Training Scale:
1) Rhythm
2) Relaxation
3) Contact
4) Straightness
5) Impulsion
6) Collection

Each stage must be achieved in succession otherwise you will find the later stages just don’t happen.

I really think if you follow this religiously than you will find things become a lot easier. I know I certainly did.


I just want to say that I don’t mean to imply that I’m more knowledgeable that the other posters, nor that my way is necessarily right. I understand that different horses take to different methods. This is just MY opinion and I felt the need to refute the other methods as I truly believe they are incorrect. What you choose to do is your own prerogative.

[DITZ]

I have the number of a 'horse whisperer' come behaviour expert come back speacialist who lives in Matlock, Derbyshire. He has worked wonders on mine and might be worth a shot. He charges about £30 and is worth every penny.

PM Me if you want his number.

[Dizzy]

Before a horse can put its back legs to use he must accept your legs, travel straight and have a rythmic stride.

Bridging the riens doesn't engage the back legs, it restricts forward movement and creates a false outline.

Our riding aids should be legs - seat - rien. All horses are 'on the forehand' when we first start to ride them. To encourage them to transfer their balance we must give them impulsion with our legs and seat, and allow them freedom of rien contact to go forward.

But we should also use our legs and seat to dictate direction and pace, we should ride the horse into the bit. Not fix the riens and ask the horse to ride forward into an ungiving contact. If the horse is going forward off the leg, and is listening to your aids he will develop a rythym.

If he's hollow he needs to learn to accept your legs, and for him to do this you must have a balanced seat. Hollow horses normally burst forward off your legs, with thier heads in the air. To counteract this the rider must have an independant seat so that they don't either get left behind, or fall forward, and that they are able to keep thier legs softly 'on' and change direction so that you 'break' the forward motion.

A constant rien contact is vital, there should always be a straight line from your elbow to his mouth, if the head goes up so should your hands, but there should be no 'pull back' as the head goes up and your legs should say 'get on with it, though I can help to balance you - I'm not going to hold you up' In other words ride him towards the bit, but don't let him lean on it.

But please don't forget - to engage from behind they must accept your legs and be relaxed, they also need to have developed rythymic stride, be able to travel straight and understand your rien aids.

I know you're doing your best to check if its a physical problem - hope you get to the bottom of it soon, good luck.

[lobeliaoverhill]

If you've established that there isn't a problem with his back, then I'd suggest you do what we're told to do where I ride, ride as though you are trying to push your horse up a hill, in other words, lean back behind the vertical (not to the point that you're lying on the horse's rump LOL) to shift some of your weight onto the horse's back end, which is supposed to make him engage his hind legs more ...

Of course it could have something to do with the horse's confirmation and he's just built on his forehand, in which case you'll have to work on getting him into a rounded outline ...

[gingerbreadman]

he has always been very difficult for transitions from trot to canter on his right rein, in that he trys to run always at a faster trot whereas on his left rein he goes straight into it. Strange but I have just got used to it.

I know some of it must be me because I am only light in weight and my intrsutor says sometimes when you are small they tend not to feel you in the seat so much obviously, though I do try my hardest to get him working properly but this is also very hard with him being so lazy.

I am alsways knackered before he is !!!

And Ditz if you have this tel number for me that would be fab, thanks for that

tina