Rubber pelham

[bardie]

I'm new here, so sorry if this subject has come up before. I was advised to use a rubber pelham as a very soft bit to start a four-year old pony. She is incredibly responsive and sweet, but I notice that she can't actually close her incisors (front teeth) when she has the bit in her mouth. Is this normal for a rubber pelham or is it simply too wide for her? Sorry if this sounds totally ignorant, but I usually use a french link or wide-mouth snaffle and have never seen this problem before. Her bite, by the way is perfectly normal - it isn't that she has a parrot mouth or is underslung.
:o

[artemis]

Rubber pelham's can be quite severe in the wrong hands. Do you have a curb chain on? Can you post a picture?

[Big H]

Why aren't you starting your pony off in a very mild bit first like a eggburt snaffle or loose ring snaffle??? Much softer to start off with than a pelham (rubber or not)

[shandy84]

I started my girl in a french link egbut, she is now in a rubber straight bar snaffle which is much softer and she finds it easier to go with you may find the bit is too big certainly sounds like it, has your horses teeth been checked? if they have did the dentist say if your horse has a low pallet etc?

You may find a bridoon style snaffle would be best for you. It's the snaffle part of a double bridle and so is a lot smaller but as it is smaller in the wrong hands it can be quite severe so use it gently :)

[chev]

Sounds like the bit is too chunky for her mouth. Rubber bits often are quite bulky. Try looking at the Happy Mouth and Nathe range - they may do a pelham, and tend to be narrower, or a vulcanite pelham - vulcanite bits aren't usually that chunky.

Years ago I worked with a woman who took in youngsters for breaking and schooling. Pretty much the only bit I ever saw her use was a pelham. Every single one of the ponies she worked with left with a fantastic mouth. She usually had them relaxing their jaw and softening within about twenty minutes of bitting for the first time. Two reins, no curb chain - no need for a chain she said. She reckoned it was the best bit for breaking. She had a few who didn't like it so much, and coul d say from the way they reacted which aspect of the bit they didn't like (the snaffle or curb) and bitted those ponies accordingly.

It's not the bit that's severe - it's the hands that use it.

[sheil]

Hi Bardie

Have you considered starting this youngster with no bit at all?

Although the bit has been used since the Bronze Age as a method of controlling the horse, there is now a huge amount of research, physiological and anecdotal evidence to suggest that the bit is not necesssary, in fact that the horse is better in a bridle with no bit. It is kinder to the horse and safer for the rider - without a bit there is no risk of damage to the highly sensitive soft tissues of the mouth, there is no risk of the horse 'getting the bit between its teeth' and running away with the rider.

There are many types of bitless bridle around - the one that I have used and would recommend above all others is Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle (devloped in USA by a UK-trained vet, now living and working in USA). And before anyone cries - you have a financial interest - you sell them - yes, I have been approved by Dr Robert Cook, to sell his Bitless Bridle in UK - but after import duties, VAT and shipping, there will be very little left in it for me:) My main reason for taking this on is with the welfare of horse and rider uppermost in my mind.

Just because something has been used since the Bronze Age doesn't mean that it must continue to be used without question. As with all other things - once something comes along that can be proved to be a better method of doing things, that better method will eventually take over from the older 'tried & tested' method - however I do understand that people are loathe to deviate from what they consider to be the traditional (and therefore 'only') method.

There is a table here (http://www.bitlessbridle.co.uk/bit-bitless-comparison.html) showing how the various bitted and bitless bridles work and the distribution of pressure.

Don't take my word for it - go to the main web site www.bitlessbridle.com (http://www.bitlessbridle.com) and have a read - lots of information, articles, pages and pages of feedback from riders in all disciplines from Showjumping and Dressage to Trail Riding and Barrel Racing!

Isn't it time, in this new millennium, we started looking at this viable and kinder alternative to the Bronze Age bit?

Sheil

[shandy84]

I have no problem using a bit in fact I endeavour to use on for backing as if your horse ever had to be sold they could be flexible with the new owners my mare can also ride bitless but seems happier with a bit. Look up a post by Jay.O if you are going bitless as she bought one recently and some interesting negative points came up

[chev]

There are also horses who don't actually want to move on from the Bronze Age. There are plenty who react very badly to bitless bridles, of all types. I totally agree that just because something has been used for centuries does not make it the best, or only option - but nor does it neccessarily make it a bad thing.

Not only have bridles moved on in that kinder bitless bridles have been designed - but also kinder, better designed bits. Bits that fit the contours of a horse's mouth, materials that suit his taste better, kinder designs to suit his conformation and way of going. These alternatives to the Bronze Age bit are just as kind to the horses who like them.

The only unkind bridle is one used abusively, or that doesn't suit the horse, whether bitless or bitted.

[sheil]

Chev I agree with you that it is great that kinder bridles and bits have been designed, but the main reason for not putting a bit, or anything else apart from food, into the horse's mouth is that the horse (and all equines) have evolved to be either 'eating' or 'exercising'.

A bit triggers digestive tract reflexes, which are physiologically opposed to rapid breathing. Horses are being expected to eat and exercise simultaneously, two activities that are mutually exclusive - how many human athletes do we see eating whilst they are performing? But that is what we are expecting our horses to do when we put a bit into the mouth and ride.

A full description of what happens in the horse's throat, including diagrams is here (http://www.bitlessbridle.com/pathophysiology.html). Very simply, when the horse has something in the mouth, the eating reflexes are stimulated and the airway closes down partially to allow passage of food; conversely, when the horse is exercising, the airway should be fully open to allow maximum flow of air to the lungs, but this cannot happen when there is a bit in the mouth that 'tells' the horse that he is eating.

It is only in recent years that man has developed the technology to discover this, so for millennia we have been using a bit, oblivious to the fact that when anything is inserted into the mouth, the horse "thinks eat" - this is automatic and he/she has no control over this.

I don't wish to 'bang on' about this - but I do feel it is important that we try to understand exactly how our horses' bodies function - after all they give us so much pleasure and are so willing to be our companions - in a sheer trial of strength none of us would have a chance against a horse:)

Sheil

[No_Angel]

But my horses choose to eat when working. They will grab a mouthfull of grass if trotting (or walking) down a country lane with a tree in their face.

[sheil]

Yes of course No_Angel - mine do too (and did when they were bitted :)) - and horses will grab a mouthful of grass or tree in the field and wander off eating it. But walking or trotting is hardly "working" - a horse (or human athlete for that matter) doesn't need a fully open airway to walk or trot - but they do of course for any faster, or sustained exercise or work - cantering, galloping, jumping etc.

Sheil

[chev]

sheil, my husband cycles. Cyclists drink, and eat, while cycling - not to do so results in a drop-off in performance, a build-up of lactic acid in the muscles (leading to cramping and post ride pain and stiffness), and eehydration. That's why, if you look at cyclist clothing, you'll see the jerseys all have pockets across the back - to store supplies. The two activities are far from mutually exclusive - it's just that most sports don't require that kind of sustained nutrition during performance in humans - who are not 'grazers'.

I would also disagree that exercise and eating are mutuallu exclusive in the horse. Horses living 'naturally' are in fact exercising the whole time they are eating - I've never seen a horse that doesn't move and eat at the same time. Low level exercise it may be, but exercise non the less. The vast majority of horses out on a hack will browse the shrubbery if given a chance, bitted or not. The issue of working a horse hard without food (as in most competitions, for example) and its affect on the horse is still an issue whether that horse wears a bit or not.

The idea that wearing a bit has an impact on performance through physiology is an interesting one - sadly not born out by performance results in competition where horses wear both bits and bitless - results are not influenced by the type of bridle worn.

I would never argue that some horses perform better, and are happier, bitless - but there are horses who are not. It is, IMHO, just as dangerous to assume that bitless is best, for whatever reason, as it is to assume a bit is. We certainly owe it to our horses to get it right - and research goes a long way to doing that. Listening to our horse, however, will always go further. I am not about to put a horse in a bitless because more research tells me it's best, if the horse himself is telling me he hates it.

[shandy84]

Chev you have said what I was trying to say, I have tried shandy bitless and she really hates them, I will also try Bramble I have a feeling she will like it, but ever since saddle problems where I ignored the signs I am perhaps hyper sensitive as to what my girl makes of things as I don't want to make the same mistake again so when she seems uncomfy in the slightest we go back to what she's happy with.

[sheil]

Apologies Chev - I shouldn't have used the analogy between horses and human athletes - as you point out, cyclists eat and drink (and need to) whilst cycling. Man has the ability to breathe through the mouth or nose - the horse does not have this ability it is an 'obligate nose-breather' and to achieve optimum breathing capacity the mouth should be tightly closed and lips sealed (which is impossible wearing a bit).

As I mentioned in the earlier post - grazing is not the same as exercising - of course horses move around their grazing area whilst eating, but the minute they have to 'flee from a predator, real or imagined :)' or 'exercise', then eating and swallowing cease immediately.

The idea that wearing a bit has an impact on performance through physiology is an interesting one - sadly not born out by performance results in competition where horses wear both bits and bitless - results are not influenced by the type of bridle worn.
I feel it is a little unfair to say that at this stage, when numbers of bitted horses in competition far exceed those of bitless - and a comparison in performance between bitless and bitted can only really be judged when you have horses and riders of equal training, ability and potential. Considering the relatively low numbers of bitless horses competing in all disciplines at the moment, bitless horses are winning. In UK, Martin Pipe is using the bridle in National Hunt hurdle races and was the first trainer to chalk up a win with the bridle. There is a page on the Horses Hoof website (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/bitless.html) - about halfway down that page, giving a list of people (with contact details) in various spheres - Racing, Harness Racing, Show Jumping, Trail Riding, Tennessee Walking Horses etc who are successfully using the Bitless Bridle.

There is also bucketloads of feedback (divided into sections according to discipline) on the main Bitless Bridle web site (http://www.bitlessbridle.com/comments.phtml) from people saying how much their horse has improved since switching to the Bitless Bridle. Negative comments as well as positive are published, and where users have experienced problems Dr Cook's replies and suggestions are also published.

As you say Chev We certainly owe it to our horses to get it right - and research goes a long way to doing that. so I urge anyone reading this thread to read all the available material before making a decision regarding bits v bitless :).

Sheil

[shandy84]

And on that note perhaps anyone considering using a bitless bridle should read this thread first:

http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/forum.asp?action=forum&cmd=msg&f=bitless%20&tid=19936

[sheil]

Shandy - when you say you have tried bitless - what sort of bitless have you tried? There are many bridles available with no bit and they vary widely in their use and how and where pressure is applied.

Regarding your comment on saddle problems - I have a friend who takes in horses for schooling, mostly problem horses and recently she has had a lovely Arab, who unfortunately had been to two other places and come back worse each time - throwing his rider at any opportunity (heaven knows what had been done to him before). The owner's one stipulation was that she didn't want to ride bitless, so my friend (who uses a bitless bridle for her own horse) persevered with re-schooling (along Natural Horsemanship lines) and everything was going smoothly until he was saddled and bridled (with a bit) - he threw her off. She had already had his back and saddle checked and no problems there. So she tried him bitless - and guess what - he no longer throws his rider - the owner too has ridden him (bitless) and is delighted with the progress and happy to continue with the Bitless Bridle.

I'm not trying to say that the Bitless Bridle is miraculous and a cure-all - and I appreciate that it is far to early to tell with the Arab whether Bitless is the long-term answer, just thought you might be interested, that's all :)

Sheila

[sheil]

Shandy - thanks for posting that thread - very interesting. The person who had a bad experience says she tried a Dr Cook style bitless bridle, and then goes on to say it was a no bit bridle - they are not the same as the genuine article!

I have seen a webbing bitless bridle, called the no bit bridle and I have the instructions that go with it. Having seen this copy of the Dr Cook Bitless Bridle and the instructions, I am not surprised at the adverse reactions some horses have.

Also reading on through the thread there are many people who are using the Dr Cook Bitless Bridle and are delighted with it.

For anyone considering a Bitless Bridle, please try the genuine article (30-day no-quibble moneyback guarantee), rather than buy a copy (generally with no guarantee, no back-up via email or telephone and very limited instructions) and risk a bad experience.

Sheil

[chev]

Have to say, having followed up reviews of the Dr Cook bridle, it does seem that the majority of people who've tried it think it's great. I have also found a couple who didn't - the poor reactions were in horses that disliked the pressure on their heads.

I would agree that to dissmiss it on the grounds of having tried other varieties of bitless is just as daft as dissmissing all bits after trying just one. I do still believe that the bridle won't suit all horses. One of mine strongly dislikes pressure on his head. Having read the fitting instructions on the Dr Cook bridle, I'm pretty certain that the way it's fitted (noseband low on the nasal bone, only one finger's width between noseband and horse) really wouldn't suit him. I certainly wouldn't rule out trying it on my others though.

As regards the bitless bridle in competiton, I was actually thinking more along the lines of endurance rides - where bitless bridles are suprisingly common. Even there, though, wearing a bit really doesn't seem to adversely affect a horse's performance, in a discipline that requires a huge amount of exertion and high efficiency in oxygenating blood.

It is a fascinating subject, and the more I read, the more I feel it's something I would like to follow up. But I do feel the tone of your first post at least implies that by sticking to traditional bitted bridles we are doing our horses a disservice - and that, I'm afraid, I really do disagree with. It would be a disservice to my gelding to force him to yield to pressure he is uncomfortable with, when he himslef is perfectly happy in a bit.

[sheil]

Sorry Chev, didn't mean to imply that - if that is how it came across, please accept my apologies ;).

All I ask is that people read all the available information about bitless (like you are doing) before making a decision and take the trouble to make sure that everyone is talking about the same thing.

Sheil

[Yann]

Hmmm, I thought it came across that way too. I'm not at all convinced about the breathing thing, if this was the case and there was a physical edge to be gained from not using a bit then surely someone would have cottoned on to this in horse racing of all disciplines.

I certainly don't notice a difference between how my horse goes in a Dr Cook copy and a rubber Pelham.

And my horse is definitely not iron or tree free but still manages to be healthy and happy:D