Groundwork for biting, bored, disrespectful pony

[alwaysfallingof]

My pony has NO manners whatsoever. He is a little star under saddle, but bites people when they lead him, turns his bum on you in the field, bites people who try to stroke him, bites your bum when you turn around to pick up his back feet etc.

Since I've only recently bought him, but have known him for a LONG time, I'm looking forward to working on his manners, and was wondering if any of you brilliant advice-giving people could help me try to figure out why he's acting like this.

One other thing is that he's been working as an RDA pony for a couple of years (how I know him) and has been doing the same thing every day. He's a very clever little pony.
Also, when he came to the RDA yard he was very different, very affectionate and seemed much happier.
Here are some possible reasons I've thought of:

1)he's bored, and so is making trouble
2)he's been handled by a lot of people, some of which are very inexperienced, and so has become irritated and learnt how to respond so people leave him alone.
3)He doesn't have any horsey friends at his current yard, since he's the only pony thats permanently in at night, so doesn't get turned out in company
4)He's only turned out for a couple of hours a day, could this be why he acts aggressive when he comes in?

NB I'm sure he's not bad, he's just cheeky and disrespectful, he never kicks out, and looks very guilty when he manages to bite you.

Any ideas, suggestions or advice would be very appreciated.

[Esther.D]

Rupert was a bit like that (but used to knock you flat, and spin like a top when you tried to tack him up..as well as nipping etc) and I have been working with him using parelli with great success and he is lovely to handle now :) ...and even grooms you if you tickle his neck :D

[Yann]

Sometimes behaviour like this arises from insecurity too, and the lack of turnout and social time could also be part of the problem.

You could try Parelli, but unless you have access to their materials it tends to be a bit pricey just to do some basic groundwork. I personally like the book Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks, there's a lot of good stuff and exercises in it, but there are others such as Richard Maxwell and Mike Peace who have produced similar books. You should also be able to find quite a lot in the way of ideas and information on the web too.

It's well worth a try, being firm and consistent (not harsh!) in your handing at all times will also help. Good luck:)

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks for the replies guys
and even grooms you if you tickle his neck
That's the strange thing Esther...he does love being groomed, and will happily groom you when you find his itchy bits, its just the biting...do you think he thinks its a game, as he does get a squealy reaction from some people.

Yann..someone else has recommended the Kelly Marks book, I might beg her to let me have a squint. At the moment new pony has stopped me from being able to even think spend £16-99 on a book :o :D

[Esther.D]

Sometimes behaviour like this arises from insecurity too, and the lack of turnout and social time could also be part of the problem.

That was at the root of Rupert's issues.

Yann is right Kelly Mark's 'Perfect Manners' is a really good start for the groundwork and a lot cheaper than Parelli if you are just after some of the groundwork exercises

[Yann]

In which case don't contemplate the official Parelli route, I don't think £16.99 will even buy you a lead rope:D

[Esther.D]

In which case don't contemplate the official Parelli route, I don't think £16.99 will even buy you a lead rope

He's right unfortunately, £16.99 wouldn't even get you a 'rip-off' version of the rope halter and leadrope...mind you Parelli are not the only expensive ones (they just sell you a lot more stuff..) £16.99 will only get you half a Monty Robert's Dually halter:D

[Zingy]

You could always try clicker training - that worked brilliantly with Benj. And you can't get much cheaper than about £1 for a clicker plus some mints! There are a few books on the subject, plus I think some websites, but you can basically make it up yourself - just decide what you want to achieve (eg picking up feet without having your bum bitten) and split it down into steps (stand where you want, touch his leg, move your hand down his leg, pick foot up, each without him turning round). Then work through the stages, teaching 1 at a time, so first move to where you would stand. Click when he doesn't move then treat. When that's established, move on to the next step. Carry on like that, so you never punish bad behaviour but reward good behaviour.

It seems to work well when they're very intelligent and food orientated and like playing games! And if you've got an enclosed arena, you can do all the groundwork without a halter. You're the food source so there's motivation to stay with you, but you can start doing things like moving away from you when you say, following you etc, all working just off the clicker.

[alwaysfallingof]

I know...couldn't even start looking at the official Parelli or Monty Roberts stuff, prices are too ouchie.

Zingy, you couldn't have described him better than "very intelligent, food orientated and likes playing games"! Are you sure you don't know him :)

I think I might try the clicker training, just because he will do absolutely ANYTHING for a salt and vinegar crisp :rolleyes: :p, and I'll have a look at the Kelly Marks book, have a play and see if anything works :D

Thanks for the help, I'm very new to NH ideas.

[TWH Addict]

Dont know if it will help you, but this is the advice I was given when my mare was nippy and it did work:
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Whaen she goes to nip you, bring your elbow up against her nose. Strong. Saying NO. Then, Oops, you hit yourself? Oh dear. Poor baby. Then stroke her. Every time she goes to nip, up comes your elbow into her nose. Never your hand, the hand is for loving and nice things and grooming should be nice. She should soon desist the habit. But really it is a habit built up out of fear, fear that she is going to be hurt. Bad handling. Gonna take a time to cure, to get her confidence in you.
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[laura jeanne]

Alwaysfallingof

You can get the book you want from your local library. If they don't have it, they can get it from another library that has it and then check it out to you (interlibrary loan).

Good luck with your horse. The horse I ride mostly in my lessons started turning her head and snapping her teeth at me when I'm putting her saddle on as if she were going to bite (don't think she would). I think this is because she is very sensitive and I've seen other people tighten her girth all at once. Now she has stopped doing it because I am always very careful to do up the girth a little at a time.

[Esther.D]

If you do start clicker training watch it doesn't encourage his mugging for treats...I had to ban treats entirely from Rupert for over a year as he just couldn't stay calm when they were about and would just nip all the time, however if yours is fine with treats then clicker training sounds ideal to try :)

[notpoodle]

so you got him then? congratulations :) i think its fantastic youre so concerned and willing to tackle his 'issues' - not a lot of people would do that i think (people often seem to go down the 'smack and yell' route when their pony misbehaves!).

i am sure you'll get to the root of his problems and you'll be a great double act in the end :)

i have looked at kelly marks books, but i wasn't too impressed because i don't agree with all the join-up stuff ... i think the whole 'chasing away' stuff can easily go very wrong and i dont think its neccessary for 'every' horse.

ive just started looking into clicker training (am currently getting angel to make the connection between the CLICK and the reward ... the overall aim of it is to eventually get her used to umbrellas!) which i really like the idea of (ie. its positive reinforcement).

with the biting ... not too sure about it but i think tootsie4u had a very interestign thread on that a while ago (try searching for it!).

good luck with max :)

julia
x

ps: have you found a yard in the end then?

[alwaysfallingof]

Thanks for the replies.
Notpoodle, I know what you mean, I would feel very anxious doing the join up stuff, especially since I'm not very experienced...but as Esther says I'm also very worried about the possibility of clicker training making him nip more.
Maybe some strange, hybrid mixture of the two?!!:o
O- and TWH addict my reactions aren't quick enough to do the elbow thing, I've tried, and failed miserably. He's way to quick with his teeth for my own good!
Yard wise, notpoodle, I've gone for arkley view...20 min walk :)

[notpoodle]

ah :) i LOVE the souind of arkley view *a lot*!!! i'll pm you with some questions :D

[Zingy]

Re the mugging for treats, if anything, I've found clicker training makes them less likely to mug. They soon learn that you can have a pocketful of treats and the only get one when you say, and that's only when they don't ask!

The initial reaction from Benj was 'wow, treats, I'll have some'. When he stopped trying to get them, click and treat. That set him off again - definitely were treats, and they were his. Again, he only got one when he stopped asking, and at first it had to be the second he stopped (you have to reward the first sign of the behaviour you want at first). Within 5 mins he'd stopped asking. He started again in the next session, so we did the same, but in just a few sessions he'd stopped expecting food and realised he had to earn it. He never gets other treats though, and I wouldn't advise it as it could be confusing.

[welshcoblady1]

hello, sorry to read your pony is being rude to you .
i use natural training for equine problems, including a pen.
if used properly ,you are not chasing the horse untill tired and if you are then you are missing the horses que to want to be with you ,where you can explain what is well mannered and what is not as in your case with your pony .
but in order to use this method you would need to study horse body language and and understand pressure and release with no rope or head collar involved .
i have a filly with me at the moment who towed her owner every where and had no respect for her owners space ,and would rear
if challenged . with my pen and working halter she is learning it is easier to be polite whilst enjoying the rewards for being so .
her sad tale is ,she was sent to be broken to early as her prev owner said she was older than she was ,her novice but loving owners sent her for breaking and 2 guys roughed her up whilst breaking her and she turned defensive but not nasty . so she is now with me and we have come along way in 3 weeks ,she does not pull, she walks
with me at a safe distance and will not jump into me as she use to ,she has not reared but as we are still progressing we may not have reached the barrier yet that caused her to rear in the first place ,she has no need to rear and may never do it again.
she was scared of the saddle and the bridle and would try to run a way from it on her back ,she now is tacked up and is happy it is not going to hurt her.,her character has changed from scared and resentfull to willing and making her own choice about things and rewarded when she chooses right ,this is all done in my pen with no force or chasing hard ,she tells me she wants to try again i do not force any thing , this little filly now is easy to catch and looks forward to the attention and is coming on well is a polite lady with manners to burn ,so please consider natural training for your pony which helps the pony to understand manners with you as he would in his herd ,and there is no hard work involved for you
just calm and understanding times for you both.

[alwaysfallingof]

Zingy thats a really good idea- I've decided im going clicker shopping at the weekend :)
Welshcoblady, I'm sure that when used properly then the training methods you described are very effective, but at the moment I don't feel confident enough to try it myself, and I'm sure that if not done properly it would cause a lot more harm than good.

if used properly ,you are not chasing the horse untill tired and if you are then you are missing the horses que to want to be with you
This is exactly what i'm afraid of - I'm very new to the NH thing and I'm pretty sure I'd mess it up :o

Also, happily it seems that since I moved him on saturday he seems a lot happier...he's happy in a herd and has been fine to catch and will follow me around the school without leading once I dismount. I'm hoping that he left a lot of his problems behind when he moved homes :D :D