Dont touch my damn feet!

[~Perdita.M~]

Right thats it. We've struggled on with picking his feet up for picking out, just about managing to do most of them most of the time:rolleyes: But it really is a battle and not improving. Came to a head with the farrier today for a trim ( god knows what he'd be like with shoes:eek: ) and he was a right pig. So please, please, how can I get him to pick them up, have them handled with no fuss? I want him to be so good that he waves them at me at the sight of his hoofpick:p I am on my own with him, so have no-one else to hold him etc while I do things. Also not too keen on being booted in the face, so the less confrontational the better please!:D Am currently thinking vaguely of clicker training, but havent done any before and he does tend to get piggy around treats, so not sure how I would go about it. Any other ideas or things that have worked for you, most welcome!

I wasn't sure whether to put this in training of the horse, as thats what it is.......but as I am hoping to explore clicker or similar ideas I thought maybe it should go here:) ?

[Esther.D]

Do I remember rightly that you were looking into back problems? Pablo is very bad with his hooves, but this apparently is due to his back injury - picking up his hooves hurts his back as it twists it slightly, especially holding them out for the the farrier.

[amz]

I also had trouble picking out my pony's hooves. However I think I have now solved the problem as I give a treat after each hoof is picked out and now he is so much better and even starts to pick them up in anticipation. I know treats can be a problem sometimes but seems to have worked for me.

:D

[~Perdita.M~]

Originally posted by Esther.D
Do I remember rightly that you were looking into back problems? Pablo is very bad with his hooves, but this apparently is due to his back injury - picking up his hooves hurts his back as it twists it slightly, especially holding them out for the the farrier.

Yep Esther, exactly right. And this is one of the things that made me think he might have pain, especially as it started with just one particular back leg that he was worse with. Not an angel with the others, but worse on this one. But people keep telling me its just rudeness on his behalf and we need to put him in his place re. his feet.:( So can you do Pablo's feet at all? every day, somedays? Is he wrenching them about trying to pull away from you? Its going to make me feel so bad if he does it because he is in pain, and this *swearword* farrier is punching him in the belly for it:mad:

[Harry Hobbes]

I wasn't sure whether to put this in training of the horse, as thats what it is.......but as I am hoping to explore clicker or similar ideas I thought maybe it should go here ? Actually, it's very much a training issue; so, you posted in the right place.

Yielding (especially of the feet) is the skill the horse must be trained to do well in order to work well with the farrier or yourself. The following two photos demonstrate one of many methods to teach a horse to yield its' feet.

This particular mare had a yield problem (amoung other things), so we put her in a secure training enclosure, and went to work asking her to yield her foot forward. The lead rope is a twelve-foot, 5/8 inch soft cotton rope (cotton so that we do not "rope burn" the horse if she jumps.) Any long soft rope will do. Notice that the rope is looped behind her fetlock; but, not tied on, so if she jumps, the rope will fall off. We would then calm her down, place the rope back on the fetlock and ask again. (Although the mare in the photos is wearing her halter, we could have performed this drill while she was standing at liberty.)

When asking, we merely apply about five pounds of pressure and then wait. Sooner or later, the horse will become uncomfortable with the pressure behind the fetlock, and will move its' foot. If we get impatient, we can lightly "bump" the fetlock by tugging on the rope. If the foot comes straight forward, we hold tension on the rope and gently set the foot down on the ground under the horse's nose (with the foreleg extended), then we release. If the horse paws, strikes, or moves the foot anywhere except forward, we maintain our hold. We only release when the horse softly yields and allows the handler to put the foot down.

When the horse yields, and we place the foot forward on the ground, we give a release, praise the horse, wait 3-5 seconds and ask again. If the horse suddenly pulls its' foot away as we put it down, we immediately apply pressure and ask for another yield. (Some horse learn to take their feet away because people tend to drop their feet to the ground, possibly hurting the horse, rather than gently setting the foot down.)

The objective is to have the horse pick up its' front foot on cue; and then, we put it down (just like normal picking up of feet.) In the first photo, the mare has allowed the trainer to gently set the foot down to the ground (note the slack rope.) In the second photo, the mare has attempted to pull her foot back.

As we perform this drill, the horse will bring it's body forward to stand over its' extended foot; and, essentially be led around by the front foot.

When the horse is consistent with one front foot, then train on the other front foot.

When both front feet are good, then train on each of the hind feet in turn. For the hind feet, you'll eventually need about twenty feet of rope.

Stand at the horse's shoulder facing to the rear of the horse. Place the looped soft rope around the fetlock of the rear leg that you're facing. (If you're on the horse's right side, then the rope goes around the right rear fetlock.) Perform the same drill with the rear leg: ask for a yield; then, you put the foot down. When the horse is good with both rear legs, then place the rope around one hock, and move behind the horse, out of kicking range. From behind the horse, ask the horse to yield the leg backwards. When the horse yields the leg backwards, you place the toe of the foot on the ground. (Initially, the horse will probably kick in an attempt to get the rope off of its' hock. But, just hang onto the rope and continue the pressure when the kicking ceases.

When the horse is consistent at yielding with all four feet, without kicking or pulling away, and allows you to place its' feet on the ground, then use your hands to repeat the drill all the way around the horse. But, make sure that you do not ever drop any feet; gently place them on the ground.

This particular method is just about the safest to teach a horse to yield its' feet. In addition, the big problem that you'll probably encounter is your horse standing there and falling asleep while you're holding pressure. It's definitely low stress training.

Best regards,
Harry

[Harry Hobbes]

Photo two:

[carrimclaren]

Hi Perdita,


You ned sounds just like mine was. We realised after i'd had her a while that her back wasn't 100% and while waiting the 3 weeks for the back bloke she was not happy about picking up her back feet for me. I thought at first she was trying it on but then my farrier told me that she'd done it to him and had leant on him the whole time.
When the backman came turned out her lefthand side and both hips were out and the pain she was in would explain the reluctance to pick up her feet and also her temper tantrums over the previous week when trying to school her.

So yes i would definitely look into the back problem. If it turns out that she is just taking the mick then fair play at least you've eliminated one cause and can start working on next idea.

[entreat]

(sorry HH, didn't read all of your reply)

But how far can you get with "the friendly game" or similar? Can you rub him all down his legs with out him flinching? Maybe try it with the hoofpick? Possibly consider your own body language - are you holding you breath & all tense waiting for his reaction? try breathing out a big sigh if you think he's reading you.

It could have started as a physical discomfort & he's taken to the next level? Do you only try picking his feet out once before giving up? or do you try it a couple times per session? Remember to always have more time than he does.

[Kate F.]

Harry's description is very similar indeed to the method I use - and have used it to help many horses with problems picking up their feet.

I wouldn't even try to pick the hoof out until you can pick up each of the feet, hold the hoof and tap on it with the hoofpick without the horse getting upset.

If you need some more photos on how this progresses - have a look at http://www.harmony-project.net/skin.asp?user=katefarmer&tab=weblogs&fid=0&nextdate=10%2F4%2F2003+5%3A29%3A38+AM&direction=n&bflag=#diary - scroll down to "Yielding to Pressure" - where you'll also find pics of doing the back legs.

I wouldn't bother with treats or clickers - you want the horse yielding quietly and waiting until you put the hoof down. Treats are likely only to get them excited and impatient to get the treat. Plenty of stroking when it's holding the hoof up quietly and after it waits for you to put it down will be a more effective reward that the horse will relate directly to what it's doing. As Harry said, they usually find the whole process very relaxing once the have got used to the idea!

Good luck with it!

[Miriam]

I used clicker training on Kito to get him to pick up one of his feet. It owrked ell . He became a bit more relaxed. So yeah I'd say its worth a try. For each time you manage to either touch or lift his foot click and reward

[Esther.D]

So can you do Pablo's feet at all? every day, somedays? Is he wrenching them about trying to pull away from you?

Pablo's hooves have not been trimmed for months, vet says not to worry as when the back problem is sorted the hoof problem will cease and in the meantime his hooves are keeping themselves naturally short and pretty well balanced on our rough moorland. We can sometimes get at them with a hoof pick but have to be very fast as he wrenches them away and slams them down onto the floor.

He is so good with the friendly game that you can play it with flags etc and is fine with it on his legs, just very upset about having them picked up (worse with front legs than back). Vet says this is due to his sacro-lumbar injury as the twist of picking them up twists his pelvis and hurts.

[~Perdita.M~]

Thank you so much, Kate your website and the work with Harmony looks amazing!:) I have saved it to look through at length later. You don't do one on one lessons do you?:D

Regarding Shamrock, the vet is coming tuesday, hope it will be one that listens, and can get us referred to someone for his back. When thats all sorted will try and move forwards with his feet.:)

[~Perdita.M~]

Yes, same with Sham. By titleing this *dont touch my feet!* I over exagerated slightly! You can touch them, brush them, paint them, fiddle about on any part of his body, it is literally just picking them up, mainly the back ones:( Which really, thinking about it, as he is so cool with being handled and messed about with, would suggest that it hurts to do so!

[cvb]

just to say that my mare has never had a foot-picking out problem, but did have a "ropes round my legs" thing. Not helpful when trying to lunge with 2 lines or long rein:rolleyes:

So I worked on the yields Harry describes. (plus lots of Friendly Game with ropes). We took it step by step and I had to be a bit savvy - or she freaked out and buzzed off leaving me with rope burn ! (if you get the rope wrong and it doesn't just drop away when they move).

But we DID work through it. And I go back to this every now and then just as a refresher.

[Harry Hobbes]

have a look at http://www.harmony-project.net/skin...mp;bflag=#diary - scroll down to "Yielding to Pressure" - where you'll also find pics of doing the back legs. Very nice sequence of photos!

~Perdita.M~,

Having the specialists check out the horse is a good idea; if for no other reason that the action may serve to ease your concerns.

You may also wish to ask your Farrier if he/she believes there is a physical problem with the horse. The Farrier is not (strictly speaking) qualified to diagnose physical ailments, as is a Vet; but, most experienced Farriers know when a horse is hurting or just resisting for other reasons. On the other hand, if the Farrier tends toward "...punching him in the belly for it...", then he/she may not be attuned to the state of the horse.

A Farrier who is also a good horseman will not resort to violent action except in self-defense, and a horse taking a foot away is not a threat to anyone's self (except, possibly, their pride.) A Farrier who is also a good horseman knows how to hang on to a rear (or front) leg in such a manner that the horse is kicking with no power, and with futility. I've observed this kind of Farrier on several occasions successfully train a rank horse to cooperate within a few minutes; all without smacking, kicking or otherwise applying punishment.

Best regards,
Harry

[~Perdita.M~]

Yes I did ask him the last time, not this week, the time he was seen before. It was mainly just the one leg that day, and I asked but the farrier said it didn't feel stiff to lift or anything, and he said again this time he just needs putting in his place:( Just because the leg isn't stiff doesn't mean it doesn't hurt somewhere else though does it?:rolleyes: And of course Sham was worse this time, on 2 out of 4 legs, I think he now associates this man with even more pain/displeasure now......back/hips/something hurts and I also get a thump for it too. Think a change of farrier may be needed after any teatment. Then we can all make a fresh start:)

[Kate F.]

Hi Perdita!

Hope you find it helpful! I certainly do do one on one lessons - within a reasonable geographical area! :-))) In which country is the grass you are standing on? :-))

It will be interesting to find out what the vet says. My hunch is that this is a behaviour problem - but it's always best to discount physical problems first!

All the best

[~Perdita.M~]

I just noticed you are in Vienna!!:eek: What a wondeful place to live. Sadly I'm in boring old kent, england, so doubt I would be able to afford your petrol fees;) :D

You say you have a hunch that it is behavioural..........any clues as to why?:)

[MelanieD]

My farrier can tell if a horse is acting up because of pain in some places and asked if my chiropractor was any good so he could recommend her when he thought horses were in pain. But, he didn't spot that fatty was sore, she'd hurt her shoulder and was tense in her back because of it. She was snatching her feet (or trying to, he's very good at holding on) but she wasn't having trouble moving her legs in the directions that a horse with a sore back usually would so he assumed she was being a brat. A lot of farriers can spot sore backs but I wouldn't change farrier just because he isn't able to spot it every time.

Punching in the belly though may quite possibly be something that would cause me to change farrier, depends on the circumstances. Was it one or two smacks when he was being really bad or a wallop for every wrong move? Although my farrier is generally nice to the horses fatty has pushed him enough once that she got walloped (snatching foot failed so she tried jumping around instead). I was contemplating handing one out myself at the time she was being such a baggage.

[Kate F.]

Hi Perdita!

As I say, it's really just a hunch. Firstly, farriers are usually pretty good at working out whether a horse is in pain - I mean, picking up different horses' feet is what they do all day every day! They may not know where the pain is coming from, but I think they can usually tell an "ouch!" from an "out of my space!" Secondly, most horses have a leg that they "keep for themselves". They'll be a bit touchier about having the rope around this leg and less willing to have it compromised in any way - it's sort of the "running away" leg. It is usually (but not necessarily) the right hind. With horses that are very extreme in their behaviour, it is often the case that if you can get the right hind under control, you can get the whole horse under control. The fact that the problem started on one hind leg would be consistent with this, as well as being consistent with back trouble. However, if it were back trouble, there would probably be other symptoms and you don't mention any.

However, as I said, it's just a hunch and I would certainly get the back checked out.

I wouldn't call Kent boring - it's beautiful! I have very good friends in Tunbrige Wells - I'll let you know next time I'm there - perhaps we could meet up? The Vienna Woods are very wet and cold today - yuck!!! I have a show tomorrow so will be spending the afternoon grooming and plaiting up a cold, soggy horse. (Well, he'll start cold and soggy - I expect he'll be warm and dry by the time I've finished!) Probably a waste of time - the schedule looks as though we'll be jumping as the first class, so 5 minutes in we'll be so covered in mud no one will be able to see anything anyway! :-)))

[Yann]

In cases where the reluctance to pick feet up nicely wasn't extreme and just down to lack of trust or trying it on (which included Rio at first) I've personally had a lot of success 'getting' the foot one way or another and then praising and treating copiously afterwards. Clicker training would do the same thing.

Hope you can get it sorted OK and that it isn't pain related:)

[~Perdita.M~]

Thanks again, everyone, you can't beat this place for help in all aspects!:)

The vet is coming tuesday so will see what she thinks and hopefully see a decent chiro to rule everything out:)

Kate.F - I am in Tunbridge wells too!!:D Would love to meet up when you next come over, and best of luck for the show tomorrow!:) That was very interesting reading regarding horses having one leg they'd rather keep for themselves, and would certainly fit with Shamrock in that respect.

Other things that I have posted about previously, with this *possible* pain issue. When his new sharer mounted the other day ( he had just been doing gentle lead rein work recently) he looked so uncomfortable for just a few seconds, stepped about a little and I even thought he was thinking about bucking, which is so unlike him. He then settled and went for a short hack fine. His ridden work looks particularly awful in trot, with head up in the air, although a little better since his teeth were done and we switched to a bitless. His saddle is also treeless and a good fit. And lastly, sometimes when trotting over to me in the field, his worse back leg looks like it does a kind of double movement, hard to explain, but like it kind of gets stuck for a second.

So, I don't know how that sounds to you all! Whether it is just me being a paranoid mum, or genuine cause for concern.:) Also just wanted to say that even if it is pain somewhere, I'm not expecting a miracle cure for the feet, and know we will have to put in some work to resolve that issue too;) :D But definately want to get him throughly checked over to see whats what. I'll update after tuesday to let you know what the vet says etc etc:)

[amandal]

Hope this gets sorted soon, all I can add is that when Zizzi hurt her back she went from the perfect horse - almost picking her own feet up for me, to fighting me. As soon as her back was better she reverted back to normal.

Amanda

[Lovecat]

Good luck with the vets - hope that this proves the solution.

When Murphs came back from his loan, in 2 weeks he'd gone from a horse that picked his feet up on command to a bolshy little git that would only lift them if hauled upon and then throw them around with you on the end of it - not good for a woman in my condition with a horse with feet his size !;)

I had the vet out, as I couldn't believe he'd gone so wrong so quickly, they found nothing physical the matter with him at all. Then a very experienced horsewoman at our yard gave me the following tip, which may help if your vet can't find anything and it is just playing up (which it was with Murph, the little horror!) -

Once you've managed to get the foot up (unfortuately this bit may be arduous at first), hold the hoof by the very tip of it with just one or two fingers (at this point you're not even attempting to clean the foot) - that way, he cannot put his weight on it. If he then moves his foot all over the place, just go with it - he can't lose you, and he can't put the foot down either - after a minute or so of this he will get fed up and behave himself, at which point you lavish praise upon him and give him a treat if he's not the grabby sort. Repeat as necessary.

Murph very quickly realised that he was not going to get away with stamping his foot down or swinging his hoof about and is now back to being my good little boy again. Don't know if this will help at all, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

:D

[Moostang Rita]

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted this as I didn't take the time to read all of the replies since there were so many....

anyhow...my buckskin mare is touchy about her back feet, especially since she had an old injury there...anyhow the farrier managed to take his time and get to her feet for trimming and she did ok but it took a bit

when the vet came out though he did something I myself had never seen and it worked like a charm....

he hooked a lead with a chain to the halter..the wrapped the chain under her upper lip and around her upper gum...she did not even attempt to take one step and when he went for her back hooves she picked them right up and stood there perfectly

He said she might have had it done before since she stood complelty still as soon as it was put on her as if she knew what it was...he did say that first time horses might try to take a step or two but will almost always go "oh" and stand still once they realize what it is.

He also said it was important not to pull /push or try to lead the horse with the chain that way...it is onlyto let them know it is there and once they know what it is they respond to it. You want to use it as an assitant tool and not something to make them scared or in pain.

It really does work well but if you have never done it I would see about asking someone who does or a vet to show you the proper way to do it.

Everyone now and then I still have to use the chain with the buckskin but my other mare I clicker trained and she leanred to lift her feet with the word "hoof" by clicker training her...so that might be something else to look into as well.

Good luck to you...it's important to be able to clean thier hooves good so I hope your horse will get better about it for you

Moostang Rita

[Harry Hobbes]

Moostang Rita,

Your farrier used a variation of what is known as a "War Bridle"; so named because it is used to go to war with a resistant horse.
You want to use it as an assitant tool and not something to make them scared or in pain.
Its use is based entirely upon inflicting pain if a horse is resisting.

One would use such a device/tactic is one is not ready, willing, or able to train the horse to cooperate.

Train you mare to softly yield her feet, and your farrier will not feel compelled to use force and pain to control your horse.

Best regards,
Harry

[Moostang Rita]

Harry you are very right, it is a method that can without a doubt inflict pain..however when he attempted to do it with her she did not budge, thus he assumed she had it done before which at that point in the past it may have inflicted that pain in which she remembers, she did not resist to his attempt to use the chain at all...and it is not something I myself would reccomend being a method to use all the time. HOever when he used it on her the chain was not tight and she did not move, forgive me if I am wrong but I was also told that if the chain is loose and they do not move it will not cause pain...but was also informed that if they do move that it will, but that usually after one step most horses will hold still realizing what is going on.

I believe that we should try to use gentle methods with any animals including our horses, However in my horses case she had an injury that HAD to be examined and after trying for a good 45 minutes of other ways this was the only way we were able to get her to let us look at her. When I do her hooves she is fine without a chain but when medicine needs to be applied to her hock she is still funny about it. Most of the time I spend the time getting her to calm down about it, but there are still rare times I will get out the chain if I have to in order for her to stay still for her needed medicine, most of the time in those occasions once she even sees the chain she stands still and I don't have to even end up using it.

I do agree with a lot you said and respect the fact that you shared that with me, however in my particular case I had a choice to allow him to use the chain method or the alternative of take her in and have her doped up so he could examine her.....believe me there was no safe way she was going to allow us to touch her hock.

[entreat]

Just a thought - We were trying to bandage our new mare's knee today, and failing badly. Much stomping, moving about, slamming of both feet, and some near striking went on. The final straw was pulled when my OH rashly swung the rope at her shoulder (he has been reprimanded!!), and she shyed (rightly so) but landed on my foot!! Then twisted & pushed off - ouch!

Anyway... after putting her into the cattle yards, I called a friend (Waikato Valuta) to help us bandage said crazy mare. The second attempt went so smoothly, I thought someone had stolen my horse & replaced it this new, well-mannered one! Didn't flinch for the whole time! Shifted he weight once, but didn't budge!

Then I figured it out - we were only meters from the other horses. Thought a bit more about it - every time we'd seen the previous owner bandage her (and she's been an angel), there'd been other horses within sight!

So maybe it could help in the mean time ('cause training takes time) to have a paddock buddy/stable mate around for moral support?