Confidence on the ground...?

[sadie01]

Hi

I'm 32 and started having lessons just over a year ago. My riding seems to be comming on really quickly at the moment and every week I seem to have some kind of breakthrough, but at the moment I seem to be suffering with a confidence crisis when I'm handling them on the ground. I'm beginning to understand the subtle body language between you and the horse, but not enough to help myself. I don't know when a horse is genuinely unhappy and should be given space, or when they are just trying it on to get there own way - the more time I spend the worse it seems to be. Especially in the stable, I'm quite happy as long as they are willing to be groomed, handled etc, but the moment they start to show any resistance my confidence just crumbles.

I have started helping out once a week at the yard while my toddler is in nursery and also with the local Disabled riding group - which is also at the same yard so I know the horses. I figure the more time I spend on the ground the better/quicker I will learn in the saddle.

Anyway, it seems to have backfired. (not the riding, just the confidence on the ground) Eg: I was in with a young horse a couple of days ago and all I wanted to do was take his rug off. He's a 15.2 Heavy Irish Cob who has been a little 'moody' of late, I managed to undo all of the straps/clips etc and fold the rug back (I'm only 5ft 2), but when it came to sliding the rug towards me he flattened his ears and moved away, each time I stepped towards him he backed away and it was really quite threatening. Anyway, I know he wouldn't kick or anything, but I don't want to get caught/trodden on by accident so I went and grabbed one of the instructors and he stood like a lamb for her!

This tells me that he was trying it on, and in not standing my ground I have told him that he is the boss when we are in the stable and he can bully me as much as he likes - so I have to stand my ground next time!!!

I know it's like asking 'how long is a piece of string?' but when/how do learn the difference between the horse being unhappy/something wrong - or the horse just being a bully and testing you. I'm not naturally an agressive person, but I really don't have a problem standing my ground when I know I'm in the right - when will I be able to put this into practice with horses as well as people? Any advice would be gratefully appreciated, thanks.

[jinglejoys]

He may not have been trying it on,he may have sensed your apprehention and become worried himself,your body language may have been wrong whereas the confident instructor gave out a differant message.Don't put yourself down it WILL come in the end.
Have you read or seen MontyRoberts,Kelly Marks or Richard Maxwell?

[Gemma16]

Its a hard one this. AS I have found some people get on with some horses where as others can't get near them. I do think with this case it was a confidence issue. Probebrly as jinglejoys has said you could have made him a little nervous by you being nervous, especially if he is young, they will look to you for re-assurance. So if your nervous they will wounder why and become tense too.

I would say try to be confident with all the horses, I'm sure if there was one particular one that was nasty the yard manager would inform you.

The horse will definatly let you know if he/she is in pain or wants to be left alone. Hostile behaviour and trying it on are quite easy to differentiate between.

Good luck with it and it will come with time. If you find it isn't try doing more with the horses you are comfortable with, whether it be the littleies or your fave horse.

Keep at it you'll be fine.

[Harry Hobbes]

Sadie01,

Just offhand, it sounds like you are experiencing a normal "training slump"; one of those periodic reversals that people (and horses) encounter as they learn a complex subject, such as working with horses. John Lyons talks about this in one of his books. The slumps tend to be periodic, and presuming that one continues training through them, and one gains experience and knowledge, each successive slump is less pronounced than the previous. But, you may expect that you'll continue to encounter them periodically (such as annually.) They are natural and normal.

Regarding this:
I was in with a young horse a couple of days ago and all I wanted to do was take his rug off. He's a 15.2 Heavy Irish Cob who has been a little 'moody' of late, I managed to undo all of the straps/clips etc and fold the rug back (I'm only 5ft 2), but when it came to sliding the rug towards me he flattened his ears and moved away, each time I stepped towards him he backed away and it was really quite threatening. Anyway, I know he wouldn't kick or anything, but I don't want to get caught/trodden on by accident so I went and grabbed one of the instructors and he stood like a lamb for her!
While working with horses (or just having custody of them), the thing to always be prepared to do is to be ready, willing and able to correct the horse's behaviors at the lowest common denominator; in your example, the resistant attitude.

In other words, if you attempt to do an action around or on a horse, or you ask the horse to do something, and you encounter resistance (as indicated by pinning ears, not standing still, or similar uncooperative behavior), the thing to do is to cease pursuing your original action, and immediately work on resolving the horse's resistance. For example, if a horse will not stand still when needed, then immediately train it to stand still. If a horse pulls his head away, then immediately train it to not pull its' head away. If it pulls a foot away, then immediately address that pulling away.

In your example, immediately causing the horse to move and yield softly would directly address the resistance (because you would have asserted your dominance.) It might take you ten minutes of impromptu ground work to have him change his attitude; but, once changed, he'll cooperate. (If it takes more than approximately ten minutes, then the horse has a more important problem that needs to be addressed.) Then, after the resistance had subsided, and the horse is accepting, you can go back to what you originally were attempting to accomplish.

Address the "lowest common denominator" of behavior; resolve that first, and then move on. Learning how to do this will help you to resolve your confidence (training slump.)

As another suggestion, perhaps you can modify your outlook regarding what you wish to accomplish working around horses. For example, if you modify your outlook from...all I wanted to do was take his rug off...To something akin to:

"I expect every moment with a horse to be a training moment, wherein the horse is learning something from me."

Then you will have the mental mindset to prepare you for all of the little surprises that horses present to you. Because the unspoken truth of the above statement is that we are, in reality, always teaching each horse something; at every moment that we are in its' presence. (Just like being with a toddler.) The pertinent question then becomes: "What am I teaching this horse in this moment?" Thinking through this mental mindset does wonders for helping the human understand why a horse is reacting as it does, which then helps to enable confidence in the human.

Try this mental experiment: Ask yourself what the horse in your cited example (the Cob) learned from your actions? Then ask yourself: "What do I want it to learn from me?" (Just like with a toddler.)

Also,
This tells me that he was trying it on, and in not standing my ground I have told him that he is the boss when we are in the stable and he can bully me as much as he likes - so I have to stand my ground next time!!!Your analysis is correct; but, your conclusion should be more along the lines of:

"...- so I have to make him move next time!!!"

The dominate party (i.e., the "Alpha", the leader, the boss, etc.) is the party that causes movement in the other party; and, the horse's genetic makeup (i.e., Mother Nature) requires that someone be dominate. Dominance is essential for the mental/emotional well-being of the horse, which is why they always need to resolve the question of who is dominate.

Dominance is asserted by causing movement; not, by standing your ground. You causing the Cob to move asserts your dominance over him; and any horse must be subordinate to you if you are to get things done on or about it.

The Cob made you move. (You left to get the instructor.) So, in that moment, the Cob learned that it can dominate you. You can reverse this by making the Cob move at your direction next (and every) time.

Ask the instructor to teach you a few basic ground work maneuvers to cause movement of the Cob. Then, use these to prepare the Cob to accept your work on or around it. Both your and the Cob's confidence will be well served.


Best regards,
Harry

[sadie01]

Hi All,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I've read them all several times and given it some thought, you are probably right about my body language and being nervous.This chap is only 4, and the only other horse that I have ever felt this way about is 6, although I am very fond of both of them, and really love riding them - I do tend to dither in the stable with them - so I guess they are looking to me for reassurance and I just worry them!

There is a smaller laid back cob who I am quite happy to potter around. I chat nonsense to him and he practically purrs when I'm grooming him. The same with some of the larger horses, 17.2 etc, but I know them all so well now and they are all a lot older.

When I was in with this horse I was a little nervous, where as the instructor just walked in happy and chatty and he was fine. Given their size and my lack of it, I think sometimes it simply doesn't occur to me that they could possibly be intimidated by me.

I have just purchased a pile of horse books from a charity shop and Kelly Marks Perfect Manners was in there - I'll make a start on it (I have been reading Heather M. Enlightened Equitation, which has been a brilliant help with my riding)

I will also have a chat with my instructor, she's also the yard manager and I am so lucky as she is lovely and has the patience of a saint - she is happy for me to do as much as I am able and tries to teach me/involve me with some of the more unusual aspects. I'll ask her to come in with me and give me a refresher on moving the horses and moving around them.

I get so much pleasure from being in and around the yard, I probably sound like a nut, but I always leave there happy and calm, and I love being in the stable as much as I love the riding - and this just gave me such a wobble.

Thanks again

[sadie01]

Hi Harry Hobbs, Jinglejoys and Gemma 16

Just in case you look in again. I was working at the stables on Tues and again on Thursday and it went really well.

I made a point of asking to do all of the jobs in the stables and on the ground around the horses etc - all the time remembering what you each said about body language - and size not really being the issue. I took a deep breath before the difficult few and waffled nonsense in a cheerfully efficient voice .... and I had a brilliant morning.

In 'Efficient but nice Mum Mode' I must have taken off 30 rugs from horses as small as shetlands and the largest a 17.2.

I also made a point of being the 'Haynet Provider' and made the horses wait until the nets were up and I was out of the way before they could tuck in. (As I would expect my children to if the hay was replaced with dinner!)

So thanks for your comments, I'll keep working on it- but I'm much happier now than I was this time last week, when I thought it was all falling appart.



Anyway, it was a really

[shirley]

Just read your postings. Well done you. Brilliant. No better way to get experience than as you said take a deep breath and get on with it. How did the horses and ponies react to you? You are correct about making them wait until you have put up nets or feed down, and analogy of making your children wait is not far short either.
WELL DONE KEEP GOING!!!

[Gemma16]

Brilliant, great news. I would have done the same thing. Take the bull by the horns and go for it.

I am also a BIG fan of making horses wait before they try to snatch food from you. Taffy always waits for his dinner to be on the floor and me out of the way before he tries to get it. Same with the nets. It also shows them boundries of what they can and cannot get away with.

Keep it up:D

[mayS]

Hi, Sadie

I was in exactly your situation over the summer: in my 30's, been away from horses since college, and feeling very intimidated by them. The horses somehow knew I was nervous and some of them would take advantage of this.

I am now confident while on the ground with most any horse. Here is what made the difference for me:

I worked with the same horse over and over till we were able to do things right. If she started looking upset, i'd just stop what I was doing and wait till she settled. Eventually she realized I was going to finish the task no matter how long it took.

I also had to confront my fears about a horse attacking. Horses are prey animals and their best defense is to get away from things they don't like. They don't go around mauling people. (Which is how scary they seemed to me at first.)

Act big and tough, and the horses will sense you're the leader. They're pack animals and they do respect authority.


Best of luck to you!

[sadie01]

Thanks Guys!

[maya-m]

I'm a bit late getting to this thread but I am so much at the point you described in your post - I think you are very lucky to be able to work with so many different horses and to have such a patient YO.

I really need to find out what those actions are that Harry Hobbes refers to that address each of the horse's responses that you want to change, in order to keep the adrenaline down.

Well done for improving so fast!:cool: I'm jealous. x;)

[Harry Hobbes]

maya-m,

What are you refering to by:
I really need to find out what those actions are that Harry Hobbes refers to that address each of the horse's responses that you want to change, in order to keep the adrenaline down.

Are you refering to this statement of mine:

"...the thing to always be prepared to do is to be ready, willing and able to correct the horse's behaviors at the lowest common denominator..."

Or something else?

Best regards,
Harry

[maya-m]

Yes, I'm sorry I wasn't expressing myself very clearly. In particular, when you wrote,

"For example, if a horse will not stand still when needed, then immediately train it to stand still. If a horse pulls his head away, then immediately train it to not pull its' head away. If it pulls a foot away, then immediately address that pulling away."

I recognise these scenarios, and there are more of course, pushing with her head in particular, which I do know I need to address. Its simply that I don't know how to address them in the context of the stable. I don't exactly know what to do to train her in these details, in a way that will work.

She's a part share by the way. I know we've had no time to build up any trust - it's a very short time. I want to do some ground-work sessions with her, but have never actually seen anyone doing it, on this most basic level, so feel very uncertain about how to actually go about it. This makes if very hard for me to project calm confidence. My adrenaline is always up if I think I'm not managing very well, and things go a bit 'wrong'.

I am trying to organise to go to a training session or two, and know this will help.

[Harry Hobbes]

Maya-m,

I'm going to raise the bar on you:
Its simply that I don't know how to address them in the context of the stable. I don't exactly know what to do to train her in these details, in a way that will work...I don't exactly know what to do to train her in these details, in a way that will work.
Your question above relates to those effective training strategies, tactics and techniques ("…what to do…"), and this forum is rife with "how to…" advice. But, in order for you to be effective and efficient, in the training moment; and, to understand why to do or not do something, you need to understand the underlying genetic drivers of the horse, and their resultant behaviors.

In other words, WHY is the horse doing what it is doing.

Otherwise, if you do not understand the underlying drivers, you will be "trying this…" and "trying that…", searching for the "tip, trick, or technique" that gets results; experimenting on your horse; all the while not understanding why you had the problem in the first place, or what is an acceptable result and what isn't. You may get results with a particular action, but you may find that the results do not last, or that the behavior is now different (yet still unacceptable) - unless you have targeted the underlying behavioral drivers.

Just to make the point, this forum contains many threads that articulate the "how to…" for just about every behavioral issue with a horse. But, if you were to collect, collate and analyze all that advice, you would find a lot of difference of opinion, and conflicting advice about what works. And, you would find a lot of disagreement over the applicability of specific "tips, tricks, or techniques."

Why? Because, which of the many different "tips, tricks, or techniques" will work depends upon the specific horse in its specific environment, in the training moment. But, the lowest common denominator is always the common instinctual (i.e., genetic) drivers. These are common to all horses, and underlie all of their behaviors.

If you understand the underlying instinctual drivers, and how to deal with them, then you are able to evaluate and correct unacceptable behaviors in the training moment (i.e., "on the fly".) Indeed, you will also be able to define and create your own training "tips, tricks, or techniques" dynamically as needed.

For example, there is this behavior called the "opposition reflex" (Positive Thigmotaxes) which is inherent in all horses. We train the horse not to engage in this reflex when teaching "cues" (aids) to the horse. If we recognize the reflex and understand how it works, then we can deal with it effectively when we encounter it (once we learn effective training strategies, tactics and techniques.) If we do not recognize the behavior, then we tend to engage in one or another form of Subjectivism. (E.g., "He's just being naughty.")

Equine behavior is a major area of study, and is fundamental to a horse/human relationship; but, it is usually the last thing for which a human receives an education; after all of the overt and fun stuff, such as riding.

This equine behavior education begins with an understanding of the instinctual behaviors of the horse; and other genetic-based conditions common to all horses. Once you understand the genetic "drivers", you are able to put their behaviors into the context of those drivers. And, you are also in a better position to apply an appropriate "tip, trick, or technique" without the need to guess at (i.e., try something) how they will affect results.

If you're up for learning the behavioral fundamentals, as the basis for your equine educaton, then the place to start is:

Understanding The Ancient Secrets of the Horse's Mind, by Robert M. Miller, DVM. 138 pages. 1999. ISBN 0-929346-45-3. The Russell Meerdink Company, Ltd. (I don't think this is listed on amazon.com.)

This author is a world-famous equine Veterinarian, speaker and author; and, this recent work is based on the author's extensive equine-related expertise, is science-based, behavior-oriented, and provides a well-rounded practical explanation of the underlying genetic drivers of horse behavior; that is, their instinctive drivers. The work also provides specific training solutions which serve to demonstrate how to train within the context of the horse's instincts.

In addition, the modern natural horsemanship masters all target the instinctual behaviors of the horse in their service offerings; so by learning their methods, you will be learning how to directly address the root of the issues.
I am trying to organise to go to a training session or two, and know this will help.
This is the thing to do. But, I suggest that you start with Miller's book; then, study the various "how to…" resources (either concurrently or in sequence.)

Best regards,
Harry

[maya-m]

Thank you for recommending this book, Harry, looks like great bedtime reading!;)

I agree that knowing 'how to' needs to be backed up by understanding why. My hesitation usually comes about from asking myself why!

I also feel that I learn very much by seeing and doing. So plenty of good hands-on practice is needed. A bad experience makes me more nervous for the next time, and so I don't trust myself to work on my own with the horse. That's where Sadie's really lucky to have so much chance to practice her skills!

But NR really helps for working things out in between - so, many many thanks for taking the time to be so specific with your post.

xM

[Moorse]

Hi sadie01!!
Just been browsing the forum and seen that you live in Harrogate - me too!!

I take it from your posts that you are having lessons at Follifoot??

I was petrified of horses from a young age after having a nasty experience with a horse. It got so bad i would have a panic attack if a horse rode past me. I was alright if they were in a field and i could see a physical barrier between me and them but otherwise i was a complete wreck.

I had always been desperate to ride regardless of this fear and decided i had to do something about it.

I joined the RDA at Follifoot and helped lead the ride on a Tuesday night. This was fantastic as i knew that the horses were bombproof.

I was really scared at first and would try to stay as far away from the horses as possible!! After a few weeks i was standing there cuddling the horses - especially Bubbles!!

Anyway i led the ride for a few months, then started to help them tack up, rug up and then turn out. By the end of this i was confident around horses so much so that i decided to book a lesson. It was well worth it and now i am hooked more than ever.

I have had lessons for a few more years and now i have progressed to sharing a horse!!! Albiet a plod but its fantastic being able to plod around on your own!!!

If you want to e-mail for a chat my address is hpmoorse@hotmail.com

See you
Helen

[cvb]

just to follow up on what Harry said about finding a variety of "tactics" offered, but the underlying principles being the same...

My understanding ( as a non-parent) is that this is a similar idea to dealing with small children. That the tactic you may use with teh child will vary on the situation, but the underlying principles are the same.

As Sadie said about giving out hay - this is the same principle as feeding children - tho' possibly the horses are tidier ;)

Its also worth pointing out that horses are quite sensitive to touch - they can feel a fly land. Get a friend to touch you tentatively (or shake your hand), and then do it confidently - I bet there's a big difference !! A tentative touch can be ticklish to a horse so they will react as such.

Also worth saying that you may be physically smaller than the horse - but he sees you as a predator. So if you're scared - the horse thinks OMG even the Predator is Scared !!! It MUST be bad !!

:D

[sadie01]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the response. This is the first chance I've had to look at the site for a while. My youngest son has been teething and going through the 'waking every 40 minutes for weeks on end' phase of toddlerdom. I'd forgotten how much fun it was! And with my husband away, and my older son's after school clubs and homework - there are days when I don't know which way is up!

I have been spending more time with the horses and the change in my point of view has made a huge difference in the way I feel whilst working on the ground. (although I am still only doing very basic stuff) I'm also about to start loaning a horse next week, so I'm pretty excited. I'll be hacking out alone for the first time on Tuesday - but it's one of the school horses, and they are all so fantastically well behaved that I know I will be fine and very well looked after - but it does feel like the first time I went out in my mums car after passing my driving test.

Harry, I've made a note of your recommended reading for all of the reasons you listed in your post. I saw a national geographic programme on horses in the wild, which suggested that they can lose up to 70% of their sense of smell when it's windy. Given that they are flight animals - this is why they can be spooky when it's windy. I didn't know this - and yet it is so obvious when someone points it out. I wonder what other obvious gems I'm missing.

I'm looking forward to spending more time with one horse (although I will still be able to help out with the others)

I'll keep you posted.

best regards,

[farm-girl]

ive always just gone by instinct. its never got me in trouble yet. and anyway, theres an answer to everything!!:) for instance....how long is a piece of string?

twice as long as half of it!!!

[sadie01]

Lol !!!