What bit?

[JOJOBA]

Title pretty much explains it!
I school my horse in a normal fixed ring jointed eggbutt snaffle. Sometimes with a noseband but sometimes without.
http://www.carrollcountytack.com/catalog/images/stubben_eggbutt.jpg
and hack him in a three ring dutch gag for extra braking, sometimes with a running martingale.
http://www.cleesaddlery.co.uk/informationindex/images/bits/607.jpg
He is a good boy to school, not very forward going at all, but he doesnt really respect the snaffle at all.
He sometimes leans on it - Ive had him in a fairly thin loose ring french link
http://www.tackshoppe.com/newpage/frenchsnaffle.jpg
but it didnt really seem to make much difference. He wont be asked down onto the bridle in his snaffle - he just sets his jaw against it (hence my bringing back his noseband) and spends the whole lesson desperately trying to get his tongue over :mad: .
So is there a bit you would reccomend? I am going to try him out in a couple of things but want to know if there's anything you've had good results with or that you think would work for me?

Sorry about the pics but Im bored so I decided to illustrate. :p
xxx Jo and Hec xxx

[Yann]

Have you tried a hard rubber mullen mouth pelham with an elastic curb? It's actually a pretty mild combination and can be terrific for schooling, as the curb works on a reflex point and relaxes the jaw, and usually the rest of the horse too.

You are supposed to use it with two reins so the curb isn't on all the time, but for various reasons we didn't, though we tend to have the curb pretty slack. Rio will now work in a nice soft outline on a light contact, and her education is transferable back to a snaffle.

[JOJOBA]

Hmm that's one of the one's I was going to give a go - a pelham of some kind. I have heard a lot of people on here reccomend them...
I also have a bit sizing problem but I will start a new threas about that. :)
Thanks!
xxx

[JOJOBA]

Would that be this:
http://www.goodwoods.com.au/images/pelham.jpg
with this:
http://www.ejeffries.co.uk/gfx/products/accessories/jeffries_acc/JS_MB-LC.jpg
?
xxx

Edit:
Does it also require a pelham bridle? And is a pelham bridle not just a double bridle...? I just saw one advertised on ebay whilst checking out pelhams you see. :p

Thanks
xxx

[Yann]

That's exactly it:)

God knows what a pelham bridle is because I've never heard of one:D It goes on a normal bridle. All I can think of is that they meant a rugby pelham, which is a 'fake' double with a meaningless second set of cheekpieces.

Hector shall be a dressage cob:D

[galadriel]

A pelham bridle comes with one set of cheekpieces but an extra set of reins :)

It sounds like you already think that he is uncomfortable in his mouth. If he finds the bit uncomfortable, no way is he going to relax his jaw and accept the bit. He's going to clamp down on it and try to keep it from moving. This can result in evasions--or behavior that looks like evasions--while he tries to get around your rein aids.

You say:
He wont be asked down onto the bridle in his snaffle - he just sets his jaw against it

Are you implying that he does bring his head down in the gag? Tucking a head in a bit with poll action doesn't necessarily indicate acceptance of the bit, just that it's easier to tuck the head than to deal with the poll action. If it's got the same mouthpiece as the snaffle that he dislikes, he may find it just as unpleasant.

However, part of your problem is the placement in the mouth, right? What about a baucher? It hangs similarly to a bit like the gag or a pelham, but without the poll action.

I believe that part of Heather Moffett's theory about the Pelham is that the curb chain (or curb elastic, rather) suggests to the horse that he should actually relax his jaw, which is of course different from tucking the head while still avoiding the bit. If there is one you can borrow, it probably wouldn't hurt to try :)

[helenc]

Sounds to me like it isn't really a change of bit that is needed. If your horse is leaning on you & not really paying attention then the answer is to ask for more forward movement so that the back end is being used more. Putting a stronger bit in will only make the horse back off the contact more & that is not what you should be aiming for.

[cvb]

I assume he goes ok in the dutch gag ? What rein set up do you use with it ? (one or two reins, and on which ring ?)

Have you thought about something like a Baucher (possibly with french link mouthpiece) ?

Also - does he go in an outline outside of schooling ? i.e. could this resistance have a cause other than bit ? (back, teeth, etc)

[JOJOBA]

Okay I shall answer one by one as usual :)
Hector shall be a dressage cob
That made me laugh :p
Are you implying that he does bring his head down in the gag?
I only use the gag for hacking which he enjoys a lot more. He does drop onto the bridle in the gag out hacking but I think it's the hack that does it - not the bit. I used to school him in the gag and he went pretty much how he always does.
What about a baucher? It hangs similarly to a bit like the gag or a pelham, but without the poll action.
I dont know of that bit? I dont have a great deal of experience of bits - every single horse I know is in a snaffle, gag or in one case hackamore. What does it look like? What is the effect of it?
If there is one you can borrow, it probably wouldn't hurt to try
Like Ive just said I dont know anyone who has one. I may just buy one - it'll be £15 down the drain if it doesnt work but never mind.
I assume he goes ok in the dutch gag ?
Yes but tends to lift his head in it. I stopped using it for schooling for this reason. It seems to make him quite tense in the school.
What rein set up do you use with it ? (one or two reins, and on which ring ?)
One rein, on snaffle ring (big one) if I dont have time to change it before schooling, next ring down for hacking, and with the third ring as an option if he's being strong.
Have you thought about something like a Baucher (possibly with french link mouthpiece)
Referred to that one up there^. :)
Also - does he go in an outline outside of schooling ? i.e. could this resistance have a cause other than bit ? (back, teeth, etc)
Yes he does - out hacking. (Usually when there's no-one looking.)
xxx

[JOJOBA]

http://www.saddleupequestrian.co.uk/images/wy740.jpeg
Google says this is a Baucher.
xxx

[galadriel]

I don't see an image or link in your post, so I'll go ahead and describe it. A baucher is a type of cheek, which can be used with any of the regular mouthpieces. It has a bit ring against the mouthpiece like an eggbutt, but it attaches to the bridle cheekpieces with a ring like the one on a curb bit. Imagine a Pelham without the curb shanks.

It sits differently in the mouth, and has a slightly different action from a snaffle, but certainly stops short of a curb.

If you're having all this trouble with bits, have you considered a hackamore, at least to see if it'll help? What about changing the material of the mouthpiece? (Steel, aurigaen metal, copper, sweet iron, rubber, plastic)

[cvb]

hmm - am just pondering that if the choice of bit is not making a big difference, perhaps the key is elsewhere ?

Is there something about the way he goes out on a hack that you can work on in the school ? e.g. perhaps he needs a lot of onward going warming up before he can work like this ?

Our Fell gets really switched off by schooling - we have to put things in the school to keep his interest - poles on the ground, cones or blocks to work around, and so on. Is there something that gets him interested ? The Fell is also a "diesel" model and takes quite a long while to warm up properly.

Cos you need the basic foundations of forward, straight, active before you stand a chance of getting an outline.....

I appreciate you may have already gone through all of this... but its always difficult to tell what has or has not been done before someone asks for our help :p

[Yann]

I'd still be inclined to give the pelham a try, it might not work, but it's worth a go as it seems to make it clear to the horse what you're asking for.

Beware of him dropping behind it though, it's very much a case of releasing in reward as and when he softens, tact may be required. Also, if he tends to walk through the snaffle it might also be better in that respect as well.

[chev]

A Rugby pelham is a pelham with an extra cheek ring, used usually in showing to give the impression of a double bridle in horses that don't wear one normally. It's usually used on a normal snaffle bridle with an extra sliphead on it to attach to the second ring. In action it's the same as an ordinary pelham, for which you don't need a special bridle - just an ordinary snaffle.

Galadriel - I thought the Baucher (they're called hanging cheek as well sometimes) did have a degree of poll action?(Albeit nothing like as much as a curb or a gag). I agree that a hanging cheek may well suit Hector though - they are useful in horses that do try and get their tongue over the bit because they sit higher in the mouth, and relieve the pressure other bits can put on the tongue and bars of the mouth. They come in various different mouths - French link, single jointed, mullen and so on, so you can choose a mouhtpiece that best suits him.

If you try the pelham (which is another I think is worth a go) I'd be inclined to look for a ported mouth version - he sounds as if he's uncomfortable with too much pressure on his tongue. If he has a thick tongue, the port would give him a bit more room and he may well be happier.

[JOJOBA]

If he has a thick tongue, the port would give him a bit more room and he may well be happier.
Thanks. What would Port be?
Wow I never knew I was so bit ignorant! Im starting to realise I know nothing about them... :(
xxx

[chev]

This is a ported mouth kimblewick - the ports can vary in height, but generally look like this. It fits over the tongue, so relieving the pressure on it. For a horse with a low palate and thick tongue, you'd choose a low port, but for one with a thick tongue and high palate, a higher port would usually suit better.

Have a good look in Hector's mouth - open his lips up from the side and see if his tongue pokes out sideways between his teeth. If it does, then he'll be happier in bits that leave room for his tongue (ports, mullen mouths, French link - plate type, not lozenge type link though). Single joints are more likely to pinch a thick tongue, and straight mouths can put a lot of pressure on. See if you can feel how high his palate is - if it's low, you need to look for thinner mouthpieces. Higher and he'd probably manage ok with a thicker one. I'm guessing he probably doesn't have a lot of room in his mouth though - natives and cobs often don't.

[JOJOBA]

He hates having his mouth looked at but I will see what I can do. I might try and take an illustratory pic or two...
so is it coming down between this;
http://www.goodwoods.com.au/images/pelham.jpg
and this;
http://www.cc-ent.net/albums/bits/pelham_port.jpg
Have a good look in Hector's mouth - open his lips up from the side and see if his tongue pokes out sideways between his teeth.
It does a bit and he does have a wide and chubby tongue.
So we're wanting unjointed but not straight - preferably ported. Okay.
They dont seem to do rubber ported ones - so what is a nice soft matierial I can get? Or which would you recommend?
xxx

[Esther.D]

Just to cause more chaos (sorry)...I saw from your other post that you are hoping to do dressage, just bear in mind (if you didn't already know) that pelhams are not dressage-legal bits :)

[JOJOBA]

Thanks :)
We havent actually done anything other than a pony club show ever - so it dont think it will be much of a problem, especially as I quit pony club 2 years ago!
At the moment all we do is school. Im going to start jumping him soon but I'll do that in the snaffle.
As he's so lazy in the school I dont want a harsh bit at all, I definately dont want to stop what small movement we have! But at the moment his snaffle is just giving him another way to get out of work - he can pull against it and just ride on his forehand, or worse, in my opinion, put his head up to try and get out of a contact and not give any weight at all.

Another thing Ive just thought of to ask you - will a non-jointed bit mean that he rides straighter? He always turns his nose a little inwards at the moment and leans on the outside hand and I have to constantly correct that and try and ride him straight. Its because to him turning in = end of lesson. I have already tried to quash this idea and for the last three years havent turned in, led to the gate or dismounted at the end of a lesson, but it's an idea he wont give up! If I do dismount in the school I lead him a circle so he doesnt go straight to the gate.
Anywho - will it help?
xxx

[cvb]

the "non-jointed" bit might not help basically the two sides of the bit will no longer be independent. But the shanks on the bit might do - like a snaffle with cheek pieces... The side pieces put a small amount of pressure on the cheek, so if he turns to inside but you keep the reins the same, there should be some pressure on the inside side of his face which will encourage back to the straight and narrow.

In terms of pelham mouthpiece - I seem to recall that vulvanite or rubber mouthpieces tend to be thicker than the metal ones. But the softness of the rubber might be better than the thiness of the metal.

I think you might also be able to get happy mouth pelhams - which may be thinner but also "soft" and will give tongue room.

Short sides (shanks) are kinder than long ones.

Just a comment about the "he can pull against it and just ride on his forehand " - with cobs they can sort of "mow" forwards and there's a tendency to try and slow them down, shove them together and so on. i.e. to manage them quite actively. But in some cases this is the last thing you want to do - they never learn self-carriage and you and they just have a mutual co-dependency ! Whilst it can be a bit scarey, sometimes what you need to do is push them on, with very little rein. If they are really really on the forehand, then accompany this with ten tonnes of half-halts and transitions - just for your own saftey - but in between the half-halts and transition, let them carry themselves. Use elevated poles to help encourage them to lift and flex those joints :D

[Esther.D]

Just to approach this from a different angle....I take it he doesn't evade the bit out hacking? And he is fine in the gag hacking but not in the school? Well that sounds to me like an issue not with bitting but with schooling. How much schooling do you do? How long at a stretch? And how 'interesting' is it for him? Maybe he is just bored in the school but likes hacking? Is there anything you can do to make schooling more exciting for him? Or is it the other way around and you are doing lots of jumping and he is getting too excited and that is what is causing the head in the air and tongue over the bit? Maybe you are schooling for too long at a time or too regularly (for his personality I mean)? Try giving him a 'holiday' from schooling in the school and try schooling out on hacks instead?

Just a thought....

:)

edit - Sorry have just seen your new post on this very subject!

[galadriel]

Originally posted by chev
I thought the Baucher (they're called hanging cheek as well sometimes) did have a degree of poll action?(Albeit nothing like as much as a curb or a gag).

That's approximately what I was trying to say, yes :) Action stops well short of a curb, but different action from a simple snaffle.

[chev]

Thanks Galadriel :) was getting a bit confused for a minute!

Esther makes a good point too - given the problems that Hector has, and the fact that he only really objects in the school (where he has to work harder) maybe it's not simply the bit that's at fault? Perhaps there are other, maybe physical issues, that need to be resolved?

[JOJOBA]

Thanks for all the help people :)
Well for a start yesterday I had a good poke around in Hec's mouth and put him in two bits - a 5.5" jointed eggbutt snaffle and a 6" eggbutt snaffle. I left his noseband off and watched what he did.
So my new information is:
1) my horse is very unhelpful. He wont keep his mouth shut and everytime I tried to subtly pull his lips up to see if his tongue bulged out he started tossing his head and chomping.
2) His tongue is huge. It sticks out about half an inch through his teeth at the sides (once I eventually held his mouth shut long enough to see!). It's extremely thick and he rolls it over a lot and enjoys playing with it(there's a twist half way up everytime I try and look).
3) As soon as he gets the bit in he chomps and chomps and grinds his teeth (which were seen by the dentist recently and are apparently fine) and slobbers everywhere and gets all foamy and (this is the oddest) leans down and puts his head sideways on the floor and presses with a look of glazed concentration trying to pull his tongue over the bit. He can get it further up his mouth than the bit but he then cant lift it over.

To make things more complicated;
I dont know if Ive mentioned his rogue tooth yet so I will now as it may have a bitting impact;
one of his wolf teeth (or tushes I believe) instead of growing where it should, has 'slipped' down about 2 inches and is growing under his tongue. When we got him it was very sharp (as fighting teeth are) and had cut under his tongue. After discussions with vet and dentist we decided not to have it removed but instead keep it filed flat (removing it would involve major surgery and cutting through his jaw, as it has come through the bone or something like that). However when it's growing back a little he begins to grind his teeth. He sees the dentist more regularly due to the tooth needing filing. He plays with this tooth ALL the time. He will lean on something and rub his tongue up and down on the tooth - be it a wall. person or the floor.

This got me wondering - if he is doing the pressing and rubbing when he gets bitted it may be that the bit is pushing his tongue down onto the tooth?
So perhaps a bit with as little tongue pressure as possible would be good.....
I am going to borrow a hackamore sometime this week and see about that.
Sorry about all this but I want my horse as happy and comfy as I can get - then I think he'll start working better.

Thanks in advance for your replies - Jo
xxx

[No_Angel]

Have you thought about a ported mouth hanging cheek? This is what I have on my cob. He runs through double jointed bits and leans on any other bit. Although I do show him in a mullen mouth pelham, and he goes quite well in it. The only problem is you can use ported bits in dressage. But I use a loose flash with mine and I will just do low level dressage where they don't check tack so I might get away with it.

[chev]

Excessive foaming like that can often be a symptom of discomfort, so you may well be right in that the bit could be making him very unconfortable with that rogue tooth. A ported mouth hanging cheek may well be the best bet bit-wise, but you may find, with a tongue that fleshy, that any bit will cause problems in view of the tooth problem.

I'd give a hackamore a go. There's a number of different designs - German hackamores put a fiar amount of pressure on the nose and poll. English hackamores use less pressure but can still exert a fair amount of leverage. Dr Cook bitless bridles use a kind of head-hugging system and claim to be completely humane in that they don't put pressure on the facial nerves as the Parelli style and cross-under bridles tend to. Different horses react differently to different types.... it may be a case of trial and error before you find a bitless that suits!

I used an English hackamore on a cob I had who couldn't tolerate bits at all. He went like a dream in it, worked 'on the bit' and used his quarters well, wen tout on the roads, jumped (little ones out hacking - I'm chicken), rode in forests and on beaches and I never had any stopping and steering issues.

Don't apologise either - it's great that you're taking so much time to find something Hector will be happy with. Hope you find it soon. :)

[cvb]

Originally posted by JOJOBA
I dont know if Ive mentioned his rogue tooth yet so I will now as it may have a bitting impact;


There's no MAY about it - more a question of "how much". But it sounds like you're working through this now :)

[Yann]

I agree, even if it's filed down the tongue may still be sore in that area, and if he has a big tongue any bit may make matters worse.

I would definitely try a hackamore, there's a possibility it will be a revelation. I have a Dr Cook copy bridle you'd be welcome to try on him that would probably fit if you wanted to, but it won't necessarily give you as much control.

[JOJOBA]

Thanks for that :)
That would be great Yann - although he does have a big head :p.
I would like to try him in a bitless bridle - the only other horse on my yard with one is a delicate little TBX and I dont think it's going to fit Hec - his head is very wide. What does a Dr Cook bridle look like?
but it won't necessarily give you as much control.
If you're referring to brakes that will not be a problem in the school, :p although it would be out hacking. Im not sure Im happy with the idea of hacking in a bitless as he can be extremely strong when he wants to be, but I will certainly try it out in the school. :)
I may still try the pelham as well. Harry is coming to ride him on wednesday so I wont change anything before then - but once she's ridden I'll start swapping and changing around a bit.
I have just acquired a video camera (well, stolen from someone :p) so there's also a possibility I can take a couple of clips of him in different things and give you a look at his mouth. (this video camera is going to be great - expect a lot of videos on my threads from now on!).
Thanks all,
xxx