Long Reining - Bridle or Headcollar?

[Tangle]

Fifi is still on extremely limited work while her feet sort themselves out. The vet and farrier have said she can work in walk, in straight lines on a firm surface - so long reining came to mind.

Now, we've heard that you should generally long rein in a headcollar (if it's safe) as long reining in a bridle causes a horse to over bend.

I can kind of see a logic to that, but wouldn't you see lots of overbent driving horses if it were entirely true?

Any comments?

[Zingy]

Personally I'd never long rein in a headcollar. There's a complete lack of control. Possibly long reining in a bridle will encourage a horse to overbend if you put the reins through the stirrups. It's not where your hands would be, and it's not how horses are driven. If it becomes an issue, you can long rein using a roller with the reins going through loops at the top of the roller, how they would on a driving horse. It gives a contact much more like a ridden contact.

[H & Bailey]

ive never heard of long reining in a headcollar as i thought the idea of long reining was to get the horse used to turning by the bit and accepting the aids from somewhere it cant see you as to be independant.
ive always used this as the step before having someone on board whe breaking so have always done it tacked up.
overbending is more often caused by draw reins or side reins too tight or other devices used to create an out line before the horse has had chance to learn its own self carriage.

[chev]

I longrein May in a headcollar all the time. She's really responsive, very controllable, and does indeed tend to overbend in a bit, where she doesn't when ridden. It's more because of her size than anything though, she's titchy. I've not heard of it being a common problem and I have longreined in a bit for years.

I would always start long reining without a bit as well - if for some reason my horse spooked (not unknown when first longreining!) I'd much rather be pulling on a headcollar or cavesson to stop than jabbing him in the mouth.

Try both, and decide for yourself which she goes best in.

[JenM97]

NEVER longrein in a headcollar! i'm currently studying for my BHS stages and if i ever said that you longrein in a headcollar i would be shot on the spot! i've always been told that you longrein and lunge in a snaffle bridle with the noseband removed and a lunge caversson over the top. If you longreined in just a headcollar you have very little cotrol over the horse especialy if the horse bolts or is spooked.
hope i've been some help! :)

[lisae]

I agree with Chev about not wanting to pull on the mouth accidently so I have started my youngsters in the bitless bridle. Gives them a feel for the concept of head-hugging contraption (it is tighter than the halter) and the idea of turning and stopping from rein pressure.

[Esther.D]

I start my youngsters in headcollars on longreins and then move onto a bridle, but only in an enclosed area and when they have had plenty of handling and groundwork beforehand. Longreining in a bridle will not make them overbend unless you are heavy handed, if you have a nice light contact then longreining should only be beneficial. The idea of causing overbending is because it is easy to 'lean' on the longreins if you are have heavy hands.

[Dizzy]

I start them in a head collar, with someone up front to help them out, when they feel confident with the long riens, understand the aids and are confident to go it alone, the helper clips off the lead rope and walks beside them, then they slowly drop away until the horse is going solo.

When I introduce the bit, I feed the lunge lines through the bit rings and clip onto the headcollar noseband rings, so that though bit is influenced by the riens the contact is on the noseband. This stops the youngster getting jolted in the mouth if things go pear shaped.

Once the horse is longriening in every direction and halting willingly and relaxed, I then clip directly onto the bit.

With the overbending - are you confusing long riens with draw riens? Longriening is about asking the horse forward into a fluid contact, so for them to overbend, you'd have to drive them into a restrictive contact.

One thing I will say though - if Fifi hasn't longlined before, I don't think its your best way forward, for the exercise she needs right now. With horses new to longlining its best to keep changing direction, as they can sometimes become strong just moving in straight lines, you need direction change to 'break' forward motion and keep them listening to you.

Hope she recovers soon - good luck.

[Tangle]

Thanks for all the feed back, guys - you've pretty well confirmed what I thought but given me the logic I wasn't clear on :).

I should have given you more background. Fifi's 5 now. She was started in Germany and sold under sadle at Brightwells as a 3 year old. With her first UK owner she did dressage and gained a couple of BD points. Due to a variety of reasons she hasn't done much consistent work for 6 to 12 months - the last 6 months of this she's been on our yard where she was a) not owned by anyone for much of it and b) very foot sore. How she was started we don't know - but I can promise you I have absolutely no intention to put draw reins on her under any circumstances and I'd be pretty reluctant to use side reins, either.

The problems with her feet are hopefully nearing resolution (bad trimming had resulted in an imbalance in her foot, stretching the deep digital flexor tendon which hurt so she was landing very toe first.....). We're hoping that with the next set of shoes (late Nov) she'll be able to start doing more proper work, but in the meantime the guidelines we have are pretty restrictive.

We desperately want to start her doing something - she's a chunky girly (:o:D) and lack of handling/work is making her a bit bad mannered. Within the restrictions, long reining was about all we could come up with, but if anyone has any other ideas..... :D

[chev]

Originally posted by Esther.D
Longreining in a bridle will not make them overbend unless you are heavy handed, if you have a nice light contact then longreining should only be beneficial. The idea of causing overbending is because it is easy to 'lean' on the longreins if you are have heavy hands.

Thanks for clearing that up Esther. May tends to overbend because she is so sensitive to pressure on the bit - I was starting to wonder if it was the bridle that was causing it, although I've not had the problem before.

JenM97 - I have actually long reined a cob stallion in a headcollar with precise control before now. He was, unfortunately, unable to tolerate bits at all so longreining in a bridle was simply not an option. There are horses I have no qualms about longreining in a headcollar, and horses that would worry me even in a bit. I agree that longreining in a bit will give more precise control, but to say that long reining in a headcollar gives no control is far from accurate.

[Esther.D]

Chev - if they are very lightmouthed and rather intolerant of contact (Rupert being a prime example) then the weight of the reins can be enough to create a contact without tension at all on the reins..if you look at pics of me longreining Rupert I nearly always have a lot of slack in my reins as to try and communicate down straight reins with what in riding would be a perfectly normal light contact would be too heavy on his mouth.

Just to elaborate on my previous answer (I do all my driven dressage schooling on longreins so I have had to research it and have had plenty of time for trial and error..)

- you have to remember that you are both moving at different speeds..so a 'ridden' type contact could result in an intermittant contact on the bit and thus cause overbending, you can also end up hanging onto a forward going horse's mouth in an attempt to keep up!

- you also have to remember that the reins themselves have an intrinsic weight..they are creating a contact before you even begin (this is less of a case if using very light nylon lungelines and is more and more drastic as your reins increase in weight up to 'proper' leather longreins/driving reins)

- as I said earlier, you have a lot of leverage on longreins as you bodyweight is added to the end of the reins...so you can be being far more heavy handed than you realise

hence most of my longreining pics look like this, you can see that my reins there is a positive loop between my hands and his roller, you yet the weight of that loop is actually creating the contact that you can see in the slight tension on the rein between his mouth and the roller. That is enough for him, any more and he overbends or even backs up. However after a few weeks of longreining on this very light contact he has settled a lot more and started to accept his bit better so it has been very beneficial for him.

[Esther.D]

Just to give some 'official' support to my ideas..the following is taking from the 'bible' of carriage driving Sallie Walrond's 'Breaking a horse to harness'.

"It should be possible to bring him from canter to trot, to walk and halt, with the voice combined with the bare minimum of pressure on the reins"(p.69)

and...particularly applicable to Chev and I and anyone else who works with small and light mouthed ponies:

"Great care should be take to use very light reins. Heavy reins or those with heavy buckles, can make a horse overbend by their sheer weight. Those seen in the photographs are [leather] tandem leader reins. They weight 1lb 10oz each and are 24ft 6" long. They have proved to be too heavy for some very light mouthed, small ponies and therefore cause overbending They are however ideal for average animals over 13hh high"(p.71)

I use tandem leader reins too (as I happen to drive tandem so I have a set) and they are ideal, but mine are webbing and very narrow and light..but even they have enough weight in them to create a slight contact without me doing anything...

[chev]

Brilliant Esther, ta! That makes a lot of sense now - I used to use leather driving reins, and eventually gave up longreining May in a bit because she was apparently so over-sensitive to the bit. I used the same reins on Gelfy (rather insensitive, likes to lean if he can) with no problem at all.

I've since bought a pair of nylon full size draw reins for long reining May (well they have to have some use somewhere don't they? ;) ) and she's much better - but they're shorter, and much lighter than the leather driving reins. I haven't tried her in a bridle with them. I always had to use a roller on her with the leather ones or she'd drop her head so far she was standing on them - I can actually long line with the draw reins without a roller, and she actually works with a much better carriage. Attached should be a link to a pic showing May with the draw reins, in a headcollar - not good quality but will show how she doesn't over bend with them. The third pic down on the thread shows long reining in a headcollar.

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=37845

[chev]

And this is May in a bridle (and heavier reins!) - shows how she overbends quite nicely, in spit of having a roller on. Apologies for appalling quality - these were taken off video.

[Esther.D]

I think you might have the problem right there Chev! The reins are too heavy for her delicate little mouth! She does look a sweetheart there though despite the overbending :) Might be worth trying your drawrein longreins with a bit and see how she is. You link isn't working by the way :(

[chev]

Bit dim of me really - Gelfy goes like a train with them and I didn't really stop to think about how much more sensitive May is.

Have edited link - it should work now. Physically there's not much difference in the thickness of rein, but the draw reins are much much lighter. I'll have to try them on her bit now!

[Esther.D]

Yep, link working now :) She is such a pretty little thing! She does look much happier in the lighter reins even on the headcollar, I would definiately try her with them on the bit.

Bit dim of me really - Gelfy goes like a train with them and I didn't really stop to think about how much more sensitive May is.

I find that is one of the great values of NR etc, sometimes you are so close to the problem you can;t see the wood for the trees so to speak (my dilemma with Rupert is a perfect eg. cvb has just pointed out that if I continued my Parelli, which I can do now we have access to an arena, I don't need a new saddle anyway as I can use my stock saddle anyway :rolleyes: )

[Tangle]

Chev, Esther - that's really interesting re. the weight of the reins. I think the place where I first heard the comment tends to use a pair of lunge lines (the padded cotton ones about 1" - 1.5" wide) and I don't think they have a roller. It's all making sense :).

So, next question, how do you find a decent pair of long reins that are light? I've looked on TDS (as they're also really close to me), but they only have these (http://www.tds-saddlers.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?PCLinkID=2737) which look quite heavy.

RideAway had more variety (Aerborn (http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=d8a4d76fb727bcdd7a1c4533186a4f44&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SLR&catcode2=LUAE) , CottageCraft (http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=d8a4d76fb727bcdd7a1c4533186a4f44&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SLR&catcode2=LUCC) , Jeffries (http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=d8a4d76fb727bcdd7a1c4533186a4f44&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SLR&catcode2=LUJ) and Kincade (http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=d8a4d76fb727bcdd7a1c4533186a4f44&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SLR&catcode2=LUW)), but don't have that much info on them.

I've tried searching for a driving supplier, but they seem to be well hidden!

Anyone got any recommendations on a good light lunge line/long rein (preferably cheaper than the Jeffries - I know they look nice but >£40 each :eek:!).

Also, do you reckon starting with the reins through stirrups would be OK? If she needs a roller then I don't mind getting one, but if we don't have to.....

thanks all :)

[chev]

One option would be to make some. :) I made a pair of long reins using two trigger clips (Robinson's sell them, got mine from local agri merchant) and two lengths of rope from a marine supplier. The advantages are that you can choose the length of your reins, and the weight - most marine places stock a vast array of different thicknesses and weights of rope. Mine were great. Unfortunately the rats at the stables thought the same. :mad:

[Dizzy]

My TTeam Instructor uses climbers cord (I think its 3/4cm thick) she doesn't attach a clip, but uses a quick release knot. I've long reined using them and they're great - I do have some but I'm not great at the quick release knot. I have no problems tying the right side, but struggle on the left!!

[Esther.D]

Before I had my tandem leader reins I just used lunge reins - one purple and one cream...they helped me tell my left from my right when I was practising obstacles on longreins :D

Driving suppliers are out there but their reins are generally pretty expensive too :(