Falling in when lungeing

[Hollymead]

Hi guys. I've been long-reining Holly (2 year old) for a couple of months now, and she's very good - going forward and slowing when asked, relaxing her head and neck forward and down, turning easily and, when I have asked for enough impulsion, going straight.

We've now started lungeing (as well as continuing the long-reining), and have run into a small problem - she can fall in. It's not all the time, or at the same point on the circle, or on a particular rein or in a particular pace, it's just every now and then she cuts right across the circle and a 20m circle can be reduced to her going past me only a metre or so away. She is very, very responsive to voice commands but has absolutely no fear of the whip, so even if I point it at her shoulder the second she looks like falling in she just ignores it and runs onto it! She isn't coming in to see her mum, as she always keeps moving on at whatever pace she's in, she just cuts off the circle. Help!

[chev]

Lunging is very hard work for a horse. I forget the actual comparisons but lunging does make more physical demands on a horse than basic ridden work. She has to use herself in ways that horses naturally don't when lunging for a start - we expect horses to bend in the direction of the circle they're on, but in fact at liberty they naturally bend in the opposite direction, for balance, and this 'unnatural' bend is incredibly hard work to begin with.

The other problem is that at two, her joints are simply not well grown and mature enough to deal with the demands lunging places on them - she may well be finding lunging uncomfortable and diffcult, and is really trying to tell you that in the nicest way she can.

Lunging horses under three can actually do long-term and permanent damage to their limbs, backs and necks. I'd be inclined to stop lunging and if you really want to work with her, to concentrate on in-hand and groundwork. There's masses of stuff you can do with her (spookproofing, introducing water, poles, mazes, walking through lines of bags or washing - all good basic groundwork and has the added benefit of teaching balance, co-ordination and obediance) without putting her at risk by introducing work she really doesn't need to be doing at this age.

It might also be worth bearing in mind that a horse should never *fear* the whip - respect it, yes, but the whip is only ever an extension of our own arm, and should be used as such, not to intimidate.

She sounds like a very obliging horse - all the best with her. :)

[Hollymead]

Sorry for using *fear* I meant respect, just couldn't think of the word at the time!

I've been reading a lot of books regarding youngsters and what to do with them for ideas - we've also been leading out in traffic, and whilst long-reining have encountered dogs/bicycles/plastic/water/banks etc - and they all mention lungeing e.g. Pippa Funnell, Richard Maxwell. If I only plan to lunge once every couple of weeks, just as a progression in our training as opposed to fittening work, will it really hurt her in the long-term? Worried now, as I lunged the last two babies I started :( :(

[Mehitabel]

i think it's 20 minutes lungeing is equivalent to an hour's schooling.

lungeing every couple of weeks could easily do her harm, especially if she's cutting in so unbalanced and putting lots of strain on her legs on the tight circles - also, once every two weeks isn't enough to do any good in terms of training as she's likely to forget between sessions, so there's really not a lot of point, IMO.

do these books specifically say 2 year olds? i've only ever seen in books lungeing mentioned as part of the breaking in process, which normally starts at three or four.

the trouble is, with early lungeing, the damage often doesn't show for another ten years - by which time the horse is probably with a different owner and nobody thinks to connect it. but it can significatly shorten the horse's working life. chev's little chap is a walking example of it, having joint trouble from too much work too early on, and i think it's tootsie's bon who has had x-rays that showed changes in his joints from the same thing.
honestly, for the sake of another 18 months wait, it really isn't worth it.

why do you want to lunge - what's the hurry? while i do think that babies need to get out and see the world, learn respect and all that, for me, lungeing is adult work. they only have three or four years to be babies, compared to 20+ of being working grownups - i think it's better to let them have that time with as much baby time as possible.

[Hollymead]

The books discuss lungeing in the respective sections on two-year-olds, but I'll definitely take your advice and wont lunge her again at two.

In answer to your question Es, as to why I've been doing it, it's because I wanted a new challenge for Holly. She has responded to everything I've thrown at her (obviously not literally) whilst long-reining without a backward step, nothing seems to phase her, she just takes her cue from me, and if i don't care, neither does she. She's a very intelligent pony (not just saying that cause I'm her mum) and I just picked the next logical (well, I thought it was) step for her. And as for her remembering things between sessions, she does, I had one long-rein lesson with her before I went on holiday, and she remembered everything when I came back. *Big sigh* Sorry Holly if I've hurt you :( :( :(

[chev]

Will infrequent lunging hurt her? Very likely, yes. And even if it doesn't do you want to take the chance?

Es is right about my little gelding. He's 12.2 ish, and started at two. He's seven now, and already showing symptoms of early onset arthritis. His joints were damaged because he wasn't mature enough to cope with work - in fact since we've owned him the deviations in his front legs have actually become more obvious, not less, as time goes by. This in spite of corrective trimming. His stifles too are damaged - they click constantly and he finds it hard to flex his hocks properly. He has long periods off work even now - by the time he's twelve he's unlikely to be working at all and will almost certainly end up being PTS because of arthritis long before he should even be retiring, all thing sbeing equal.

Damage done early on won't manifest itself until later. Maybe some horses do get away with it. Personally I'd never take the chance.

[cvb]

Hollymead - setting aside the age thing, which has been dealt with already ! - how are you lunging ?

- off bridle or cavesson
- one rein or two
- side reins or not ? and so on

I just suspect that there might be folk out there with older horses who do this who would also like an answer....

[Hollymead]

Thanks cvb :) Got rather upset that I may have hurt Holly, would never, ever mean to.

As for actual problem, I was lungeing off a cavesson, with one line attached to the centre ring (no bridle as Holly not bitted yet).

[chev]

Sometimes lunging in side reins will help solve the issues - not so tight they restrict head movement, but enough that there's a contact on the outside rein. It also helps if the horse understands that pointing the whip at them means go out! Or, if a horse understands longreining, then lunging with two reins can be useful - the outside rein can go through a roller, over her back and back to you, or right round behind her quarters and back to you. Both are quite effective at keeping a horse out on a circle. It is important to make sure they're not diving in for any physical reason though.

Hollymead, don't be upset - we're all here to learn, and I recklon most of us have probably made mistakes with horses in the past (and if I'm honest I'll probably make more in the future too). I'm sure you have Holly's welfare uppermost, and given time away from lunging for a bit now I'm sure she'll be fine. She sounds like a lovely horse, and you sound like a really caring owner - don't worry. :)

[cvb]

Hi Holly

Lunging off a cavesson centre ring is a nice even way to do it - but with a young horse, you may find that they "yield" to the pressure in this way and come in. i.e. in some ways they are just doing what you have asked them ! (of course it tends to be when its convenient to them as well....)

I wonder whether it might be useful to do some ground work which will help with this but also give you something else to do with your "baby".

You said she ignores the whip. Well its fine that she's not scared, but she does need to understand it as an aid.

You could start with simple things like teaching her to yield from pressure to turn hindquarters, or forehand. Start using pressure of your hand but then move up to using e.g. a carrot stick (rather than a lunge whip - which is a bit long and wibbly to work like this !). This is teaching the horse to yield to steady pressure. You can refine this so that a lighter and lighter touch is needed - and it gets to the point where you hardly need to touch - just "indicate" and the horse understands.

This kind of education will then help you when you go back to lunging when she's a bit older. But will also help you with general manners when in stable, grooming etc - so its a win all round :D

[Hollymead]

I have put my lungeing stuff into storage for now, but thanks for your advice guys.

Chev - I know you were only trying to help, I just get hyper-sensitive where Holly is concerned as I rescued her in an abused state and it's taken so long to get her right.

Cvb - she is already very good about yielding to finger pressure. She'll do a turn on the forehand and a turn on the haunches from light finger pressure. I think the problem with the lunge whip is she just thinks 'Oh, that's not mum,' when I pointed it at her shoulder.

People have been telling me to loose school her instead of lungeing, but that's a prob, as she just stands there if I crack the whip near her. If I take up a 'threatening stance' a la Monty Roberts she looks at me like I'm barmy! I know I've got the position right as it works with other horses, but I think Holly just trusts me so implicitly she's like 'Now, I know that looks threatening, but it's mum, she really can't mean it.'

[cvb]

Hi Hollymead

Don't know if this is any use or not - but I was at a demo last night by Peggy Cummings. I audited a clinic of hers earlier in the year as well. She does something called Connected Riding (http://www.connectedriding.com/)

She has a series of ground exercises - a whole load of which can be done with the horse stood still. She was giving an example of a horse that had broken its coffin bone and was on 6 months box rest. They did the exercises with it and it came out with better use of its body (more connected, blanced etc) than before !

I can see a lot of centered riding, Alexander, Pilates, TTeam bits in her work - if that helps to explain what is going on.