Harsh bit acceptable?

[qhlover]

Little background on myself....30 years old, riding consistently for 10 years, self-proclaimed intermediate rider, owner of two horses, Tuffy and Hoss.

My gelding, Hoss, is a true rare gem. He is 12 years old, 16.2H, an old ranch horse and heeler, QH (of course!!!). He is suitable for advanced, novice, child, grandmother, cowboy, recreational roper. Just a joy. He is rode in a jointed curb bit, loose rein, a neck-reiner. All he requires is seat and leg aids. I rarely have to touch his mouth and never with anything more than a squeeze.

My mare, Tuffy, is a true rotten egg. She is 7 years old, 14.2H, green-broke (despite many training attempts) and grade. She is not suitable for advanced, novice or anything in between. She manages to unseat anyone who dares to mount with either outright aggression and violence or sneaky evasive manuevers. I manage to have 2 out of 10 pleasant rides on her and stay on 6 out of the unpleasant 10 rides, and that is because she knows me and has more "affection" for me than anyone else. To have a pleasant ride, I have to spend 1 to 3 hours on ground work, and even that does not always guarantee I will not get run away with and dumped.

I honestly believe this horse has neurotic and psychotic tendencies, not said in a funny way. I can ride her for three hours, have her doing all of the Parelli Seven Games with no effort, part on great terms with me as clear alpha and then go back to her the next day, or even two hours, and have her go at me trying to run me down, kick me in the head or paw me down.

I have tried every natural horsemanship remedy, natural training aid, regimen, etc. and so forth. I have spent six months, an hour a day, 5 days a week, with her just doing ground work to establish a good working relationship and to gentle her. Two days off grazing with Hoss and she is back to being El Diablo again.


She has rode in just the Parelli halter (which ended up in me breaking my tailbone), a pelham, a full cheek snaffle, a Mikmar short shank, and a low port curb bit. No control with ANY of the above. She knows her training, which I have been doing over and over for 3 years, but prefers to fight and have amateur rodeos with me. I have had two friends, who are professional trainers, take her for a month and return her to me saying she is just an abnormally nasty mare. Furthermore, she retained none of their training (or so she pretends).

She is not worked hard, pleasure only, is floated annually, trimmed every six weeks, has a well-fitting saddle and so forth. I have bent over backwards for this horse and have had safer and more enjoyable rides on a one-day broke two year old. In other words, she is not crazy b/c of anything that I am doing or have not done or have overlooked.

Yesterday I ordered a gag hackamore with a twisted wire bit. Harsh, yes. I never thought I would ever even say, or type, those words without my lip curling in disgust. My rationale is that the bit will not hurt her unless she hurts herself with it. I do not "punish" with violence or aggression, unless she tries to kick or bite me, or with poor hands. I do all my asking in phases reaching up to the demand (or "holding") phase. I never jerk, wrench or yank. If she keeps pushing past me once we get to the holding phase, it will be her doing and not mine, as my rationale goes.

All the above notwithstanding, I have serious misgivings about using this harsh a bit, always believing (and seeing) in the past that they are "torture devices". Is my rationale rational? I am at the end of my rope with this horse....I can only afford two horses and I like to take my friends, novice and advanced, riding with me on the weekends but no one will ever ride Tuffy, even the advanced.

She can sometimes be so sweet and endearing (2 out of 30 days) that I just cannot bring myself to put her up for sale where I know she is just doomed to a life of neglect or slaughter. I don't know her past before I got her but I think it must have been rough.


So, getting to the point, my dilemna here is, See the gag hackamore with twisted wire as a necessary evil in order to keep me and my horse alive and well and have some actual enjoyable times together or keep riding in normal bits and get me and/or her killed or her sold to a life of misery?

All points of view, even very harsh and anti-me, are welcome. This is a tough decision for me to make and I would appreciate all angles of arguement.

Thanks.

[lollielala]

I've had an experience somewhat like yours. One of my horses was unruly and stubborn. He would snort, run in circles and jerk his head when he didn't get his way, and I would always give in to him. Stop. I was using a regular bit and it wasn't helping any, so the person I got him from gave me the hackamore he was always rode with, and my horse's attitude changed. Some people say the hackamore is harsh and that it should never be used. I personally don't believe that. Yes, it does have more effect and it may be a harsh, but if it's used properly, there's no harm to the horse. I truly believe that the hackamore I use today is the best. I agree with what you said: "My rationale is that the bit will not hurt her unless she hurts herself with it." and I support your decision to try the hackamore on her. It will not hurt her. She's probably around 1100 or 1200 pounds, and she's a horse. I say go for the hackamore and let me know how things go. Just remember to be patient in the beginning, it will take her a little while to get used to it. Patience is the key to training a horse. Good luck to you and be safe. :)

[qhlover]

:D Oh, yah!!!!

I am reassured. Like you said, your horse sounds like mine so maybe what works for yours will work for mine! I never give up when she acts a beast but sometimes I think if I did I would get hurt less. She builds up steam and me wrestling and fighting her works her into a frenzy. You should see the muscles I have developed in my back and shoulders!!! Dang horses.

I am very happy to hear the hackamore worked for you. I believe it will work for mine too, especially with that twisted wire in there. I have been kind with thick-mouthed bits and this will be quite a change for her. I agree with patience is the key to training. I have a one acre pasture that I use for testing the waters before going out into an open area so I will be plenty safe!

Thanks so much for your great post and your support! Means alot here! ;)

[lollielala]

You're very welcome and I'm glad I could help! :) If you would like to talk more or have anymore questions, please feel free to email me at painted_dreams_87@yahoo.com :D

[galadriel]

Originally posted by lollielala
I support your decision to try the hackamore on her. It will not hurt her.

Actually, a hackamore used with force can break a horse's jaw.

Qhlover, have you had her checked out by an equine massage therapist or a chiropractor?

[lollielala]

Galadriel, that's why I said "but if it's used properly, there's no harm to the horse." I do not support violence and cruelty to horses or any other animal. A hackamore can harm, yes, but not if it's used properly, like I said. The person I bought my horse from, a close friend of my family's who has been working with horses for 30+ years, is the one who recommended that I use the hackamore on Rico, because that's what he was trained and always rode with. I would never advise anyone to purposely injure a horse. I am not trying to start a fight with you Galadriel, I read alot of your posts and you are very wise with horses and your advice on other people's questions has helped me. I was just stating my opinion that qhlover should try the hackamore. It never hurts to try. Please forgive me if I have upset or offended you.

[qhlover]

Galadriel,

Yes, I know a hackamore can break a jaw though I believe that for a small female like myself that it would have to be one of those models referred to as "The Cruncher" (I get the heebies just typing that) with the curb bar as opposed to a curb chain. I would break my own jaw before I allowed that to happen and, believe me, my own jaw ain't getting broke anytime soon!!!

I loathe to ride with any kind of use of muscle, although in a kinder bit my mare herself actually forces that upon herself just so I can keep the darn reins in my hands, and with the hackamore being such a potientially harsh tool, if it does not give enough bite when she starts to push past it to stop her, I am just going to let her be a pasture pal to Hoss or just ride her in the pasture (which is so darn boring though!). I won't fight her with the hackamore like I would with a full cheek snaffle or Mikmar (this one about got me killed).

To your question, no I haven't had an equine chiropractor look at her because she actually goes well in a small enclosed arena (I have a 60 foot round pen) when she knows she can't pull any true antics. I also ride her in my one acre pasture with minimal acting up. It's when I try to hack that she goes buck-wild. I don't think it's really an issue of soreness or conformation, more of her attitude. I know she considers me alpha, usually, so it's not a matter of fear/spooking but one of true nastiness as she tries to get me out of the saddle.

However, if even the hackamore is ineffective at getting her attention, I may consider bitting the bullet (and wallet) and giving it a try with the chiropractor. The thing is, she can be a real beast on the ground as well. She has kicked everyone from the farrier to the vet to my dad to my husband to my dogs to virtual strangers, usually without warning.

Interestingly enough, she loads like a dream (which is the one thing I accomplished in her training) while Hoss is a true nightmare in that department.

I know I'm very chatty on this subject, it's just that it consumes my thoughts constantly lately. I am not looking for an easy way out with her, I have gone the hard-on-me/easy-on-her route thus far and it just ain't working.

Thanks for your concern! Any other suggestions? :p

[qhlover]

Lollielala,

I hope I haven't stirred up things for you with this subject. I think Galadriel is concerned because a hackamore can be used when someone is too lazy or uneducated to do the work, and a lot of people still have that conception, no matter the circumstance. Usually, the lazy and uneducated are those who back force as a method to get compliance from a horse.

I agree with you and appreciate your support on this matter as we both are horse lovers and you know where I am coming from. I don't want to hurt her into compliance, I just want her to realize she has something that won't give now if she goes up against it.

Unless my horse was trained in a hackamore from the start (like yours) or was an unexplained nutcase (like mine), I wouldn't ever consider a hackamore, let alone a twisted wire bit. I have argued quite loudly and obnoxiously on the subject of twisted wire bits before and now I can appreciate their existence, like I said, not to force or injure into compliance but to just make her unruliness a little less easy for her to push on with.


I'm hoping to get the hackamore within a few days and so will keep you all posted.

Keep on coming with the positive and negative feedback....

[Katie_85]

qhlover-Have PM'ed you.

[qhlover]

What's PM'd mean?

[qhlover]

Never mind....I figured it out! I got up too early this morning :o ....

[galadriel]

Originally posted by qhlover
a small female like myself

That doesn't necessarily make any difference. A curb is a lever; a lever multiplies force many times. Though you may not be intending to put much force into it, what you do put in is multiplied by the time the horse feels the effects.

The description you are giving of your horse's responses to rein aids suggests to me that you may end up applying that much force in an effort to control her--since she hasn't been controlled by anything else, why would she give in to this one? Especially without a fight? Sounds to me like you'll end up putting a whole lot more force into your rein aids than you expected to.

---

You may not have overlooked anything in her routine maintenance and care, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything wrong. It's possible that whoever did your fitting, did your floating, etc may not have done it quite right. I can't begin to tell you about the "fitted" saddles I've seen with major problems. Floating can be a really specialist job, and may not be done properly even when you are sure to have teeth checked regularly. Most specialists of other professions will not find a problem that would be found by an equine massage therapist, or by a chiropractor.

I have a large stack of stories, mostly contributed by fellow NR posters, about horses with behavioral issues of one kind or another; in this group all these behavior issues turned out to be physical problems. Most of them say that they'd had the horse checked out numerous times; at least one had 2 different vets and then a specialist clinic look at her horse, and NONE of them found the problem that she eventually fixed. A lot of them were fairly strange in the way that the horse would cooperate in some situations, but not in others. Being able to perform at times does not indicate that the horse can always perform in any situation.

If I had given a horse the training you describe, and was getting the results you are getting, I would be certain that there was a physical issue somewhere. It may not be something immediately diagnosable. Sometimes there's a neurological disorder or even something like a brain tumor which causes unpredictable or "mean" behavior. But I think, if I had gone to the lengths you already have in training...I would not stick something like that on a horse without a lot more physical/diagnostic evaluations.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by qhlover
I wouldn't ever consider a hackamore

By the way, I have a couple of horses in an English hackamore (mechanical, but with shorter shanks & a padded noseband as compared to the typical Western hackamore). I have no objections to a hackamore as a general tool. A lot of horses have mouth issues--often something that regular floating won't fix, or remembered trauma that keeps them from being comfortable even when the pain is gone. I do find the hackamore a useful tool and well worth its place.

I just don't think that I would use one on a horse who is known to fight the reins aids, unless the horse was also already known to go well in a hackamore. I definitely wouldn't get on without trying it with something like ground driving first, to see how the horse would respond. If the horse doesn't respond to ground driving, I wouldn't want to be the one in the hotseat when the choice comes to: using enough strength to potentially break your horse's jaw, bailing out, or trying to stick through the tantrum.

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't pretend to any expertise here; your post just made me think of a couple of things I've read.

Any possibility of some kind of hormonal imbalance? Or other organic problem?

Also, I read a thread on another board where a woman was having behavioral problems with a horse that turned out to be related to use of a veterinary medicine designed to (IIRC) control flies. Can't recall the name, but it's something they take internally, not sure if injections or oral. Didn't cause problems for the other horses, just this one. Apparently not common, but not an unknown side effect. Stopped the meds...different horse. Sorry to be so vague, but could there be anything she's taking or exposed to around your place that should be safe for horses, but she could be reacting badly to?

Anyway Good Luck!

Grace

[qhlover]

To quote my first post, "I do not "punish" with violence or aggression, unless she tries to kick or bite me, or with poor hands. I do all my asking in phases reaching up to the demand (or "holding") phase. I never jerk, wrench or yank. If she keeps pushing past me once we get to the holding phase, it will be her doing and not mine, as my rationale goes."

I do not overdo my rein aids. I know exactly how much pressure I am putting on her mouth, even at an out of control gait (which I usually back off at that point to avoid a wreck). If it comes to the point of breaking a jaw or riding it out, I will ride it out like I have done many times before. The idea of jaw breaking horrifies me, even if to save my own skin.

As for the quote about me being a small female, that was just a rhetorical statement. Whether I was a large male or a child, I personally would not place enough pressure on a hackamore to break a jaw. I am aware that it is a lever device, hence my hope in getting her attention, but it is just a device....it does not have evil in it that demands I push it's use to the point of torture. The choice is mine and my choice would be to back off from any potiential injury.

Yes, I have fought her with just a full cheek snaffle or halter but this is much different than fighting with a hackamore or twisted wire. As I also previously mentioned in one of my posts, if she does continue to push past the hackamore and twisted wire into a situation where injury is to occur, she and the hackamore are going to be retired. Putting muscle into a halter to get results is much different than putting muscle into a hackamore/twisted wire. My belief is that I am giving her an unyielding "fence post" with barbed wire on it to push up against rather than a yielding, padded "fence post".

Her equine dentist has been doing his trade for years and went to college for it. I have the utmost confidence in him. As for the saddle, she does the same thing when rode bareback.

I do have one nagging concern, however, and that has to do with foundering. She is an extremely easy keeper to the point of obesity if I don't watch her well. She has the typical grooves and rings on her hooves of a chronic founderer. Recently, we were hit by the two major hurricanes and I turned her and Hoss out on a 40 acre lush pasture for their safety from 100+ winds and debris. I didn't have time to wean them off feed and onto the pasture as it was an emergency situation.


When I brought her home, she had the kind of diagonal sore you see in foundering horses on her left hoof/bulb (I think it's called that). I gave her only hay and the next day (that quick!) it had moved down onto the hoof itself, white, and the sore was gone but it had developed into a deep groove. Now, I do know foundering is painful but does it continue to be painful after the incident has passed?

Also, she is currently on unlimited coastal hay and some very sparse pasture grass in addition to about 10 oz twice daily of 10% pelleted feed. I have thought about cutting out the feed altogether but worried about her nutritional requirements if I do so. Hoss, on the other hand, eats like a horse :D and always seems to be just a bit underweight. Any suggestions here are welcome as well.

As for hormonal imbalances, she is the poster child. When she is in heat, I don't even look her way. There is no reasoning with her and if I have to for some urgent reason, I take along a plastic-tined manure fork to keep the peace. Now, I know there are such things as rogue dogs, cows, etc., so why not a mentally unbalanced horse? She is a true piece of work and her penchant for challenging and goading you are uncanny. Hmmmm, I draw the line at putting her on Prozac though.

If I have forgotten anything in all of your great posts, I will return to respond. I hope we can all agree to disagree, within reason (!), and rest assured that I am truly not out to do harm, inadvertant or not, to my mare. I love the ol' witch despite her best attempts otherwise.

By the way, the hackamore is short shanked and I plan to pad the nose band to lessen that bite. I'm not going to use the hackamore to "teach her a lesson" or anything along that vein. I am going to use the hackamore to see if it provides a barrier that she will respect.

Thanks all of you for taking the time to give your advice and opinions. I truly appreciate it. :)

[qhlover]

Originally posted by galadriel
If I had given a horse the training you describe, and was getting the results you are getting, I would be certain that there was a physical issue somewhere. It may not be something immediately diagnosable. Sometimes there's a neurological disorder or even something like a brain tumor which causes unpredictable or "mean" behavior. But I think, if I had gone to the lengths you already have in training...I would not stick something like that on a horse without a lot more physical/diagnostic evaluations.

Galadriel,

If fiancial issues were not an issue, believe me I would have done everything in the power of my checkbook AND 0% interest credit cards! I also believe that when one takes on an animal, horse or cat, it is also that person's responibility to provide whatever cost in medical care is needed. However, everything has an eventual limit and when we get into talking about five grand for a neurology consult just to see if something is going on, that is my limit.

I have a dog that got bitten by a cottonmouth right after the hurricanes here and it cost me two grand (!!!!) for a neurology consult that lasted an hour. Did I get overcharged, I don't know but I don't worry too much about it because it saved my dog's life. I went ahead with it because it was do it or the dog die, life or death situation.

Now, in terms of my mare's situation, I really think it much more practical to give a $30 device a chance before I put myself into huge financial debt with neurology consults and MRIs. Start small and go big (in terms of money) is more my philosphy than start big and end up small. Like I said, if moderated use with the hackamore/twisted wire doesn't work, her life dream will come true and she will be retired. Either way, I will save money and she will be happier!

[bebophutch]

Hi there,

I have to say go for it, You know your horse more than anyone, you have said many times you will not use the bit wih force, so know one has anything to worry about. Just give it ago and see how it goes.

Good luck and let me know how you get on


Becky

[cvb]

just to wade in on this one point - yes founder/laminitis can be having an effect even when there are not obvious symptoms.

What's going on is that the soft laminae in the hooves get inflamed - normally because of toxins in the blood - and the tissue starts to die. It is these laminae that support the bones in the foot and give it structural support.

So even when the toxins have gone away, and the inflammation may have reduced - the tissue are still dead and need to recover.

As the hooves grow down from the coronet, this can take a long while ! It depends a lot on the degree of damage. This is where things like pedal bone rotation come into play.

So I did wonder whether the surface she is "ok" on (in the round pen) is different to the other places you ride ? i.e. its not just the walls that make a difference but the floor as well ?

Also, sounds like you have a clear hormonal thing going on - and they can feel really sore if this is happening.

Sounds like you may have a number of problems interacting - which is why its so tough to sort - and underneath that you may just have a bolshie character as well !

[galadriel]

Originally posted by qhlover
As for hormonal imbalances, she is the poster child. When she is in heat, I don't even look her way.

You know, I used to be that way (more or less). I was in moderate to severe pain all of the time, and when I was menstruating the pain went off the chart. I could sometimes manage okay, but a great deal of the time, even walking was killer. And there wasn't much predictable about the times when I could function & the times when I couldn't. I'd occasionally be stuck somewhere for hours because pain came on suddenly, and I couldn't even get up to go home.

Depo provera helped me an unbelievable amount--not just for "PMS" type symptoms, but because I was hurting *all the time*. If your mare does have a hormone imbalance, along with unpredictable behavior, perhaps you could try Regumate. (Depo-provera is progesterone; so is Regumate.)

If you're conviced that, even if she pulls the same way, you won't pull back, then you've already covered my primary concern about your descriptions of her vs the tack you are considering. I will add that I don't think I would take the step you are taking; if the choice, for me, was twisted wire+hack or retirement, I would choose retirement. But (shrug) I'm not you, and it's your horse. And you, of course, know her better than I do.

[qhlover]

Galadriel,

I have heard about Regumate but read in a horse mag that sometimes it can intensify moodiness (but decrease pain) because of the progestrone....which I think that is incorrect as you can testify to the contrary. Every bit of advice you can receive about horses has an opposing side, as I have learned! It's just crazy!

I am actually thinking pretty hard about just retiring her. Hoss is such a joy and an ease to ride I sometimes wonder why I am wasting my time, money, body and peace of mind hammering it out again and again with Tuffy. I guess it is because I want her to be able to come along and enjoy long hacks with us.

Besides giving her a ride or two around the pasture in the hackamore to make sure she accepts it reasonably well, I have come to the conclusion that the only time I will use that particular bitting device is when we do go on hacks. She pretty much sticks close to Hoss so the "I'm outta here" impulse of hers is usually diminished greatly and, hopefully, i will be able to maintain a loose rein for most of the ride. If it doesn't work out, long, boring, non-work days are ahead for her.

I will definitely use great caution and care in regards to Tuffy, her mouth and her overall state of mind. On her behalf, she thanks you all for caring enough! Not many people do and will automatically just tell you to go to a stronger bit, "who cares what the horse feels".

I have really appreciated your discussions/debating with me....it helps to formulate a plan in my mind and to set up guidelines.

Thanks!

[galadriel]

Originally posted by qhlover
I have heard about Regumate but read in a horse mag that sometimes it can intensify moodiness (but decrease pain) because of the progestrone...

Well, depo has done great things for me. But I also know of people who had unpleasant side effects and couldn't continue it. As with any hormone, there are a number of possible effects; the only way to know how it'll affect you (or your horse, rather) is to try it & see. Regumate is a daily thing, so unlike a 3-month depo shot, you can try Regumate for a couple of weeks to see if it helps at all--and if not, stop giving it.

---

I'm curious; have you ever tried ponying--or just leading--her out in the areas where she misbehaves under saddle? It might be interesting to know if she has the same reactions without a rider. And if she's fine without a rider, then how about with tack but without a rider?

[KarinUS]

3She pretty much sticks close to Hoss so the "I'm outta here" impulse of hers is usually diminished greatly and, hopefully, i will be able to maintain a loose rein for most of the ride.

How is she if Hoss comes along for the trail rides? Does she behave if she's not alone?

[qhlover]

I'm curious; have you ever tried ponying--or just leading--her out in the areas where she misbehaves under saddle? It might be interesting to know if she has the same reactions without a rider. And if she's fine without a rider, then how about with tack but without a rider?


__________________
Yeah, I have ponyed and lead her where she has her worst behavoir and, like when she is ridden, it's never predictable. One day it's a walk in the park and another day it's a nightmare. It could be windy and noisy on the all-goes-well day and calm and quiet on the nightmare day. I honestly cannot pick up a pattern.

A good friend of mine does cow work and English/Western horse training as her occupation and she just offered today to take Tuffy for a month and told me when I got her back she would be exactly where I want her. She would be riding and training her while she works cows and at the training barn in the midst of little kid horse shows and lessons, which would be great for
Tuff's sensitive diva soul.

HOWEVER, I have known this girl since we were kids and she is from the old school when it comes to horses. I'm talking about very punishing, physical reprimands, etc. I have seen her jump off a horse for balking to go down a trail and lash him with a holly branch until they were both sweating. I was so embarrassed FOR her losing her temper so bad that I couldnt make eye contact with her the rest of the day.

She rides like a pro, which she is, though and has shown in all kinds of western classes, cow cutting, roping, pleasure as well as English hunter/jumper but I know she has that "take no s&%t" mentality and backs it up with what I call violence.

The only thing is that she won't be riding in a twisted wire (she hates them too) and mechanical gag hackamore, so maybe Tuff is better off getting a taste of old school before I throw that hackamore on her. I haven't asked her what she'll use yet but I think she'll start out in a pelham and move up to a curb.

I have let two of my other friends take her before but they're not as tough and demanding as this girl and are more like I am regarding natural horsemanship is the way or no way. Maybe Tuff does need a little tough love =). Still, I'm debating.

Consensus?

[Katie_85]

Consensus? Old school does not mean good school. There is discipline, and then there is what you have desribed, which is something else entirely. Tough love for the mare maybe, but not abusive love. I would try the hackamore first, and then decide from there. Twisted wire is not as bad as everyone thinks, when used properly of course.

[galadriel]

I wonder, then, if it's the type of work she's doing when she's out that makes her unpredictable. Perhaps striding straight & long can be very difficult for her.

Since you say she is hormonal, I wonder if it would be useful for you to keep a journal of her good days & bad days. Just put a - or a + on each day, then after a month or two go back and look to see if there's a pattern. Sometimes recording it this way can tell you more than you'd think.

Also, you might want to ask larri to tell you a little about her troubles with/solutions for "Safi." Among other things, she had a professionally fitted saddle and a lot of professional training, but her horse was still hormonal and unpredictable. She changed to a treeless saddle and she also started using a different manner while riding. She's seen some tremendous improvements after each of these. Some of it might be applicable to your Tuffy.

---

As regards "tough love," assertive or even aggressive training can be helpful if a horse is just having behavioral issues. But I would never, myself, suggest/condone any correction that lasted longer than 3 seconds, and which did not come IMMEDIATELY at the time of the behavior. Yes, being tough has its place--but it's a limited place.

[qhlover]

Yes, I agree. I allow myself only 2 seconds to mete out any kind of violent response (when kicked at, bit at, etc.) and only if I can do it at the simultaneous moment of the offense or within a second or two after (somethimes your're shocked!).

All righty, got a new, perhaps kinder, idea going here.

I've spent this whole weekend improving a pre-existing but long neglected arena within one of our pastures (my husband does excavating/clearing/grading work for a living and has a lot of experience doing arenas - I knew I married him for a good reason!) to start ponying Tuffy when schooling Hoss and putting him through all the patterns. I've never actually tried this before, only hacks and such, but Hoss is clearly the boss in their "herd" and doesn't put up with her malarky so I think she'll move pretty well ponyed off him.

Once she's "worked" every day for a couple of weeks, I'm going to keep working her alongside Hoss but after riding Hoss I am going to give her a solo go. I think this simple solution may be a winner! Do you suppose she might be influenced by Hoss's "yes, ma'm" attitude since he is the alpha? I figure this combined with giving her a good, tiring workout every day may just work out some of these problems.

Also, I've put the gag hackamore up on the shelf in the tack room and will be using her old full cheek snaffle (hey, I think I can hear someone saying "way to go!" ;) ) to keep that mouth as soft as possible.

In regards to the hackamore, I will keep that on hand for things such as when I trailer her and Hoss to one of the six hour trails around here just to make sure we don't have any circumstances where she takes advantage of the situation.

So, I'm happy to say that I feel really good about this solution and I am just chomping at the bit to get out there tomorrow ( I can only get some free time when my daughter's in daycare). Wish me luck...will keep you great people posted! I appreciate all of your support and advice.

Thanks!

PS - I also started treating Tuff today for lice/mange of her mane. Maybe it's a new lease on life for her.....I'm hoping....

[galadriel]

Sounds like you have an interesting time ahead. Fingers crossed it'll help a lot! Good luck.

[lawgirl]

Well, I tryied to keep up with all of the posts, and if I fell behind, I appoligize in advance.

My QH is a absolute joy to ride, however, I was having a major bit problem with him. Yes, before anyone asks, I eliminated all of the obvious first.

I decided to try a Hack, with no bit. First time I put it on him, I got on him bareback (probibly not the smartest thing to do, and I would highly recommend no one try this) but he was a absolutly different horse.

I rode him 3 times with the hack around our place before leaving our area. He then would put his head down and let me put his briddle on with no problems, with the bit, it was to the point that he would almost reir up before he would allo the briddle on.

Hacks can be very dangerous in the wrong hands, yes the mechanical hacks with very long shanks can break a horses nose. However, I put a padding on the nose guard, and it takes little or no pressure for him to respond to anything I ask him to do.

It sounds as though you have tried and delt with all of the issues of a responsible horseman, less is always better if you can get away with it. My suggestion is try a hack with no bit first, there maybe another reason for her misbaving, she may just not want anything in her mouth period.

Please let me know how it turns out for you.

Thank you

Wendy

[Elly Koopman]

I remember there was a pony on our yard that had problems with her seasons - she had PMT in the highest order! She would be imposssible and hideously dangerous to catch if she was out, and if she was in a stable she'd kick the stable all day and night and was a very effective rodeo pony when ridden. She'd also get colice everytime she was in season. The vet that treated her said that he's not known of any horse to be that bad, and when he'd asked around, it baffled a lot of very experienced vets. This horse had to be given hormones (like the human contraceptive pill) to balance her out.

There is one thing I am confused over - you mentioned a hackamore which in england is a bitless bridle - used when horses can't or won't accept a bit. I dont' understand where the twisted wire is coming in - is an american hackamore different?

The might be a possibility that your mare does not like open spaces - is she the same when Hoss is ridden out with her - she might have seperation issues and detests being in a large space on her own. Strange as it seems - horses can be agrophobic (sp.)

There is also the age old breeding issues. You do get strains of breeds that are well known for being appalling - you mentioned you are not sure of her training backround before you got her, do you know the breeding? I might just an unfortunate occaision where she has the worst traits of her parentage. This isn't a bad thing and the fact that she has good days suggsts that this might not be the entire case.

If you are subconsiously worried about what might happen too when riding out - she could be so in touch with you that she picks up on this and while she'll pick up that you are not happy, she won't be able to pick up what you are unhappy with, which if she is not okay with being out on hacks only adds up and could cause the explosions etc..

Just a couple of thoughts!

[Nicole5310]

Ive got to say the first thing that came to mind when i read your first post is hormones. It seems to be more common than people think. Ive heard of more and more horses being treated for such things.

[lawgirl]

Elly,

I do not know what type of "hackamore" or bitless bridle you carry in your area, but the true American Hackmore's (they actually came from Spain) do not have a bit, they now make hackamore's of various degrees, and one has a twisted wire. You will see a lot of negitive posts or articles on using a hackamore, and granted if it is a mechanical hackamore with long shanks, which is considered the more severe type, in the wrong hands, can be a dangerous tool, however, I do not beleive any more dangerous then a lot of the bits out there that is being used incorrectly and tearing up a horses mouth.

I am not familiar with your bitless bridle there, our hackamores puts pressure on the top of the head and on the bridge of the nose and along side the muzzle, or where the nostril are. Depending on the type. Is that what your bitless bridle does?

I do not know how or why others use hacks, all I can say is it take no or very little pressure of any kind to get my horse to respond to a hack, and the bit was just not an option at the time. He instantly changed as far as attitude, and riding is now a pleasant experience for us both.

Here is a picture of mine, as you can see, I put addional padding on the bosal part of the hack, under the red sheep wool is a very wide leather band, this is also part of the degree of severity for a hack, the smaller the band, the more severe, and some even put chains on there, I do not see the point in that.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by qhlover


(hey, I think I can hear someone saying "way to go!" ;) )


WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!! :)

[cvb]

Once she's "worked" every day for a couple of weeks, I'm going to keep working her alongside Hoss but after riding Hoss I am going to give her a solo go. I think this simple solution may be a winner! Do you suppose she might be influenced by Hoss's "yes, ma'm" attitude since he is the alpha? I figure this combined with giving her a good, tiring workout every day may just work out some of these problems.

Even if the "alpha" presence doesn't help, just having a regular work-out might.

Pat Parelli talks about not getting on til he's done his pre-flight checks. There are definitely times when I know I am going to loose school or lunge Fi before I get on ! She's not mean, just VERY full of energy ;)

I know you've done the groundwork thing - but you need a SAFE set of "pre-flight" work you can do and this sounds like it might be it... good luck. I'm sure we all have our fingers crossed for you and Tuffy.

[Elly Koopman]

Lawgirl - Makes sense now - That picture to me looks like what we call a german hackamore, and puts pressure where you said - the other one we use is the english hackamore which is very similar but uses a thinner noseband and shanks.

I have used a bosal before on Rosie - had it fitted for us and everything - she just kept shaking her head!!! Tried an argentinian bosal (the one with the two straps down the face) - she took one look at that and said no bleeding way!!! If w have to ride her bitless, then she's put in a parelli head collar.

In the right hands hackamores allow a horse to be ridden while recuperating from a mouth injury, or a horse that has a fear of bits. I think it's a shame that people are now pairing up a hackamore with a strong bit to provide them with more control - it's against the principle of a bitless bridle!!

[lawgirl]

Elly,

I agree, I would certanly attempt to get to the bottom of the problem well before I used that type of extreme measure. Maybe there are some folks out there that could tell me what kind of problem would be solved with using a hackamore with a bit or wire attached, I can not think of any or I should say I cannot think of any that could not be cured with patients, time and trust. Even though the hack is working so well with Sonne, I still rub his nose, put my fingers in his mouth etc. I do not want him to develope a strong fear or problem with his problem being handled. I do know that he has those eye/milk/canine teeth in and I do know that is part if not most of the problem with him refusing a bit. But until that problem is solved, a hackamore seems to be the answer at the moment. And if we both enjoy each other, riding out and training, then,,,,,its all good :)

Wendy

[aphagirlie05]

Qhlover, is your mare a grade quarter horse, or just a grade mare in general? If she has any sort of blood lines you could consider turning her into a broodmare, or selling her as such to someone you'd trust to never sell her or abuse her. I'm not a big fan of harsh bits, I've seen too many mis-used, however, as you said, you know how to properly use your hands, so if you feel comfortable trying a new bit, you can. I would also rule out all medical problems before I tried anything new first. Have your vet out and do a thorough check for any problems. Chiropractic has worked wonders for Nique, along with acupuncture.

Another thing about hackamores. A mechanical hackamore is the type that can severely damage a horse's face if used improperly. They're normally the ones made out of a bicycle chain and long cruel shanks. I don't approve of mechanical hackamores at all. However, a bosal is something I love to use. They're great to start young horses in.

Another thing is, if your mare does good in the one acre pasture and the ring, then don't take her out on the trail. If she can't seem to calm down or is a pill to handle, as it seems to be in this case, she might just not be cut out for trail riding.

Whatever the case, I wish you tons of luck! - Kristen