Western saddle fitting

[Greentchr]

I have read all the posts throughout the different boards, and have not found quite enough information on western saddles (I also read the information under 'western', including saddling and history). I am looking for some specific information on fitting a western saddle to my new horse (I am also new to horses). I have borrowed a number of saddles, looking for just the right one, but I am afraid I do not really know how to tell if a saddle fits the horse correctly. The brand of saddle I am now preferring is Bighorn because of it's comfort (for me) and light weight. They are a composite tree (not wood), leather seat and fabric elsewhere. The 15" is the right size for me, but how do you know if you need a semi-quarter or a full-quarter tree? The semi-Q seemed to fit fairly well, but left a dry spot on either side of the withers after a hard ride. I have not been able to give a hard ride to the full-quarter saddle, but another full-Q gave her dry spots in the same place. It was better with an extra blanket with the pad. She is a 3/4 quarter, 1/4 appy, slender, 15'3, aprox. 900 lbs. Any advice you may give would be greatly appreciated!

[sozzie]

I'm in a similar situation although it's more difficult for me to get a saddle here in the UK as Western isn't so popular.
I found some info on a US site but cannot remember where I got it from. It said that Semi -QH bars are generally 6-6 1/2 inches fork width and 90 degree bar angle, QH bars (standard QH 6 1/2 - 6 3/4 inches with 90 degree bar angle. Full QH 6 3/4 - 7 inches fork width with 94 degree bar angle.

Try this link: http://www.btinternet.com/~stevepscott/Pages/Fitting.htm
and this one:
http://www.westernsceneshop.co.uk/?CLASS=Folder&DBID=a2f109f9c47bf2993ba24088f3bb5cf6#c

hope they work, the second one describes which saddles are suitable for which horses. It might be worthwhile getting a flexicurve or some wire to measure your horse's shape.

Personally I'm thinking of trying a Wintec or a Bighorn saddle to start with as my horse is still growing and when she's a bit older and more muscled I'll save towards a custom made one - fortunately there's a guy in my county that makes custom western saddles. My horse is only half QH and registered as an appendix 3 QH -I expect she'll need a semi-QH saddle.
Good luck

[galadriel]

Well, unfortunately, the first thing I'd recommend is forgetting the composite tree. They're light, sure, and they may be comfortable for the rider, but they're not very good for the horse.

The Western tree should have long, wide bars that curve (front to back) to match the horse's back. The longer and wider the bars, the less pressure at any individual point. The synthetic tree has more narrow, shorter bars, which means that all of the area under the tree holds much more pressure.

The synthetic tree also tends to have inadequate curve from front to back, which means that it "bridges" under the horse. The horse's back is curved more than the saddle, so the saddle rests on the tips at the front and back--and nowhere in between. This is a common cause of pressure points directly behind the wither. This is also impossible to see, nor to find unless you're looking for it specifically, since the skirts of the Western saddle hide it.

Even if the front of the saddle or the tree size OUGHT to fit the horse, a synthetic tree is unlikely to provide the horse with sufficient comfort.

The difference between the various Western tree sizes can be found here:
http://lorienstable.com/services/fitting/tree_sizes/
(1st half is English, 2nd half is Western)

The regular, semi-QH, and Standard QH bars all differ only in the width across the base of the fork. "Full QH" bars are also wider in the angle of the bar itself, as well as the width across the fork. A horse with a true QH back is likely to need real full QH bars, and for some reason these are very difficult to find. Also, those who are selling Western saddles (in tack shops or selling used) typically have no idea how the saddles differ, and some people are even under the impression that any Western saddle will fit any horse.

A Western saddle is designed to have a large, heavy tree. This is part of the benefit to the horse. Even though the composite tree is ligher, the heavy wooden tree is much, much more healthy and comfortable for the horse.

More about the surface of the tree here:
http://lorienstable.com/services/fitting/weight/

[Harry Hobbes]

The semi-Q seemed to fit fairly well, but left a dry spot on either side of the withers after a hard ride. I have not been able to give a hard ride to the full-quarter saddle, but another full-Q gave her dry spots in the same place. It was better with an extra blanket with the pad.
Try these tests:

Saddle her up with the (seemingly well-fitting) saddle with a doubled light-colored bath towel as the only saddle blanket/pad, and ensure the saddle fits with the static checks published in this forum and elsewhere. (The doubled bath towel puts the saddle very close to her back, and will pick up a dirt "pattern.")

Then, tighten up the cinch normally, and rather than ride her, work her on either a lounge line or at liberty, to the point where she warms up and the saddle settles in. (I.e., do a bunch of ground work; say about ten minutes or so.) Do not mount nor ride her.

After she's been carrying the saddle and working for a while, check the saddle to ensure that:

1. The saddle has not moved forward on to either of her scapulas. There should be clearance between the front of the bars and both of her scapulas at all times, such as when she extends a front leg (and the top of the scapula moves rearward.) If the rigging rings on the saddle are vertically aligned to the rear of the rings on the cinch, then the saddle rigging rings and the rings on the cinch will tend to align vertically, during the dynamic movement of the horse. This dynamic re-alignment pulls the saddle forward (whether or not a rider is in the saddle.) This is fixed with a saddle that has the rigging rings set more forward on the saddle. (But, not fixed by cranking down the saddle with a tighter cinch.)

2. The saddle does not have a gap between the middle of her back and the back of the saddle where the skirts come together. Such a gap is one indicator of incorrect rocker in the bars. Three inches indicate a significant mis-fit; one inch, a slight mis-fit. (Check this after the horse warms up and is relaxed; because, a cold/un-relaxed horse tends to "hump" its back, and cause this gap.)

Then, if the saddle passes these checks, work her harder, to the point that she's sweated up. After she's sweated up, unsaddle her and check the sweat pattern on her back, and the dirt pattern on the towel.

3. If the sweat (and dirt) pattern on her back is uneven, then the saddle bars probably do not fit her back.

4. If the sweat (and dirt) pattern on her back is even, then the problem (dry spots) is not with the saddle; but, rather how the weight is distributed when she carries a rider.

It is not uncommon for riders to put too much weight forward on to the front of the saddle, causing the front of the bars to carry more weight then the bars are designed to distribute up front (thereby resulting in dry spots and other things.) This results in those riders chasing "saddle fit" problems.

If improper weight distribution of the rider is what is happening, then a good instructor can help you fix this with your riding. If not, then a good saddler can either (a) build you a custom saddle that fits your horse, by starting with a bare tree fitting; or, (b) help you check the fit of a manufactured saddle.

Best regards,
Harry

[Greentchr]

This information was exactly what I was in need of. I think you have stopped me from making some major errors in saddle buying! Galadriel, the Lorien website has excellent information. the article about fitting saddles is great. One question, however: the sentence "As in most cases, a "nice thick pad"... " was cut off, perhaps when a picture was inserted. Can you tell me what information on pads you have? I have had conflicting advice regarding pads, and so far none of the advice rings quite right.

Harry, thank you for the 'bath towel test'. It makes perfect sense, and as soon as it quits snowing, I will follow your directions!

Can either of you give me a steer in the right direction to look for as far as brand names go? Is the Bighorn then not a quality saddle (even their wooden tree models)? I am fortunate to be able to borrow a number of saddles from different friends, but as most of them are older, the chances of finding an identical one once I find one that fits is slim. I will look into different saddle makers in the area, but even there, without knowing them, I am not sure who to trust! decisions, decisions ...! I suspect that if my little horse could read, she would thank you too.

[Greentchr]

Galadriel , I found the article on saddle pads at
http://lorienstable.com/articles/z-fitting/saddle_pad/ (in case someone else nees the info)

I still need guidance on the many types of western pads available. Everything from the basic fabric-over-wool to 150.00 synthetics with outrageous promises attached. What is a greenie to do when faced with a choice of twenty different saddle pads?

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Greentchr
the sentence "As in most cases, a "nice thick pad"... " was cut off

Oops! Thank you :) My editor ;) must have missed that one.

If your saddle fits, then you don't need a specialty pad of any kind. Under my English saddle, I usually use a "baby pad" or other thin cloth pad, just to provide a bit of a moisture/dirt barrier.

Under a Western saddle, a real wool felt pad or a folded over blanket (natural fibers, not polyester) should be perfect. As long as it fits, you don't need something thick, something with foam, something to prevent it slipping, etc. In fact, a saddle that fits well can be made to fit *badly* by putting too much padding under it.

Things to look for in a quality Western saddle:
Well, mostly, you're going to get what you pay for. A saddle that comes new for $400-$500 doesn't have the right stuff in it. In a Western saddle, your tree should be about $150-$200 all by itself. It should be carved wood, which may be covered with rawhide or sometimes fiberglass.

If the saddle itself is inexpensive, and the outside of the saddle looks okay, then the inside of the saddle--where you can't see--is CRAP. And it'll make your horse's back into crap :(

I have liked all the "Steele" tree saddles I've seen, which are wood coated in a fiberglass perservative. They're not the only good saddle tree maker, of course, but they're the only big name (available around here) that I've found consistent. KarinUS is having a Western saddle custom made for a reasonable price; you might want to PM her and ask for details.

If you're looking to buy a saddle and you're on a budget, then your best option will probably be to look around for a good used saddle. The problem with buying a used Western saddle is that the tree sizes really make a big difference, and no one advertising a used Western saddle is going to (reliably) know the actual tree size. If they have the original paperwork, or there is a number code on the saddle somewhere, you can check with the manufacturer to make sure. Otherwise all you can do is try it on (Harry's bath towel suggestion is a good one) and send it back if it doesn't work.

If you have the option, you may wish to consider one of the "treeless" Western saddles, although the way they fit may not be ideal for most Western disciplines. There is a "Bob Marshall" Western treeless, and the "Bareback" saddle also comes in a Western variety. On both of these, the horn is pretty much decorational and there IS NO bar to distribute weight well. So for long hard rides, or for disciplines which require a lot of schooling, the treeless saddle would probably not be appropriate.

Saddle fitting is such an essential part of riding, and many people aren't even aware that saddles HAVE a measurement related to the horse...as long as it is the right size for the rider, "it fits." You're being very conscientious and trying hard for your horse. I wish you luck in finding something decent :)

[Harry Hobbes]

Greentchr,

The definition of quality is "…conformance to requirements." (Reference Philip Crosby, et al.) Notice that there is no reference in this definition to cost, price, better this, better that, nor this specification nor that specification, nor "features."

Only conformance to requirements.

"Requirements" are defined by the customer (that's you), NOT by the sales person. So there is exactly one person in the whole world that defines quality for you. (Not to imply that sales people won't try.)

For example, any automobile that meets your requirements for mileage, looks, options, reliability, prestige, image, whatever - is a quality auto. A Cadillac is a quality auto only if it meets, but does not exceed your requirements; otherwise it's just an expensive auto. (You got what you paid for; unfortunately, it's not what you required.) A Volkswagen is a quality auto if it meets meets, but does not exceed your requirements; otherwise it's just another expensive auto. (You got what you paid for; unfortunately, it's not what you required.)

So, by definition, any saddle that meets (but does not exceed) your requirements is a quality saddle regardless of the features other people do or do not like. (Unless they will be paying for your saddle.)

A quality saddle is one that "fits" your horse (one of your requirements), and meets any other requirements that you have. (Such as style, size, color, bells and whistles, useful life, and tree style.)

This "quality" issue is why there are so many production (machine manufactured) saddle makers doing business today: They all offer a quality (requirement-meeting) product to someone; and, they are each targeting their "group-of-someones'" requirements (read market niche.) And, yet they offer dramatically different saddles, in terms of materials and construction (to meet the dramatically different requirements.)

In the highly competitive business of saddle-making, if they didn't produce quality products, they wouldn't remain in business.

A saddle that exceeds your requirements, is not a quality saddle; rather, it is an expensive saddle; because you pay for more than you require. (You got what you paid for; unfortunately, it's not what you required; and you may very well be dissatisfied because you spent too much money, or you may need to buy another saddle that does meet your requirements.)

And, a saddle that meets someone else's requirements is only a quality saddle for that someone; not you (unless your requirements are identical.)

So think about your requirements before you shop; then talk to the sellers about the requirements, and how their features meet (or exceed) your requirements. If you do not know your requirements, then talk to your friends and build your requirements list.

All of this means that if you

1. have general and moderate riding requirements,

2. do not require the image or prestige of spending a lot of money or having a "quality thing" (remember, quality is not associated with a thing),

3. do not require the saddle to stand up to many years of hard service,

4. and do not intend to pass the saddle to your great-grandchildren as a family heirloom,

then you can find plenty of low cost quality saddles that will meet your needs. (Read: production saddles with man-made materials in the tree.)

I will look into different saddle makers in the area, but even there, without knowing them, I am not sure who to trust!
Saddle makers in your state (and Montana, Eastern Oregon and Washington, Wyoming, northern Nevada) prosper by reputation (as do farriers.) Your equine friends and acquaintances will know of reputable saddle-makers. Ask around for reputable makers, whether you wish to have a custom saddle built, or you wish to get professional advice regarding production saddles.

Custom saddles in your area start at around $2500 from a reputable maker (or perhaps a little more depending upon which part of Idaho you reside.) A custom saddle costing significantly less is probably a "learning" saddle, built by learners in saddle school; or by a hobbyist supplementing his/her income. That's okay; if the saddle meets your requirements; but, unless you know what to look for, you actually take a larger risk with a lower priced custom. (A maker with a solid reputation charges the higher going rate.)

I suggest that until you have a good understanding of saddles, their construction, and their usage, that you use a production saddle, rather than a custom; unless your requirements call for a custom (including the wait - one to two years for a custom from a reputable maker.)

You will also have western-oriented saddle outlets in your area, offering many saddles to look at or try out. Go "window shopping", and talk to the sellers about your requirements. (If you can't find an outlet in Idaho, truck on over to Bozeman Saddle Outlet. They have somewhere around two hundred western saddles on the showroom floor to show to you; and they can talk requirements. Or, if you're closer to Missoula or Spokane, there'll be outlets there.

You will know quality, when you know your requirements.

Regarding pads, a simple Navaho saddle blanket usually meets the basic requirements of the horse.

Best regards,
Harry

[pattycake]

Wow-good information. I am not very computer savvy- can anyone tell me how I can save this info for future reference?
Thanks in advance,

[Harry Hobbes]

Presuming that you have Windows Internet Explorer as your web browser, use your mouse to select from the menu bar: "File", then "Save As..."

This will bring up the "Save as..." dialog box.

At the top of the box, in the "Save in..." list box, select the directory you wish it saved into,

then Near the botttom of the dialog box, in the "Save as type:" list box, select "Web archive, single file (*.mht)".

Then click the "Save" command button.

The web page is then saved as a single file on your computer.


Best regards,
Harry