bad manners and respect

[Susara]

I'm need advice on a sudden change of behaviour in my horse. Sorry for the long history, but perhaps it's relevant.

Two years ago I bought a very neglected 15 year old TB gelding. He used to jump B grades, but wasn't ridden for a long time. He nicely picked up form and his previous experience gave me lots of confidence. A great first horse for a beginner adult.

Then a month ago he picked up a liver problem, he was very ill. After the first week of treatment he started joining the herd in the padock again, but of course I'm not riding him.

In the mean time I'm riding another horse, and suddenly I realised what a bully my old boy actually is. The other horse doesn't nudge me to get on if he wants, or push into me when I'm walking next to him, etc. I could ignore this before because my horse is so calm, I thought it unmannered but not dangerous.

And then Saturday I decided to give him a bath. For the first time since he'd fallen ill, he was seperated from the herd. What a surprise! He was constantly neighing after the others in the padock, very agitated at the seperation. I had to hang onto the halter to make him stand still. When I tried to walk him down the road to dry off, he was getting positively aggressive because I was leading him away from the others. I found the aggressiveness quite upsetting.

Why this sudden dependence on the herd? He's been with them for 8 months and never had such a problem.

Also, how should I address his behaviour? I know from reading that he's not feeling safe with me, perhaps I've always thought of him as 'the poor neglected boy' and felt sorry for him so I didn't make myself 'strong' in his presence. Where can I get practical information, specific excersizes, that I can do with him from the ground?

Thanks!

[Tina&Dale]

I don't think any behaviour is disrespectful. It can be dangerous, but horses don't have the cognitive ability to be disrespectful or bad mannered. They react to stimulats by instinct, not by thought.

Your horses only way of communicating to you is through his behaviour and you really need to read it properly. You can certainly dull his responses through behavioural conditioning or you may enhance them by the same means if you do not feel comfortable. However, I think that dulling a horses natural responses is cruel and uneccessary, and moreover it is what makes the horse a horse and in the end that's what we all love about them!

As for your horse becoming more "horsey" after being turned out for a while this is not unusual. Horses are herd animals and they need companionship and the associated feeling of "security in numbers". If you spend more time with your horse again, you may find that he will probably revert back to his previous behaviour and he will feel more secure in your company.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Tina&Dale
I think that dulling a horses natural responses is cruel and uneccessary

Wow! Tina, I've read alot of your posts and I must say this surprises me! Would you please elaborate?

I dont understand the point you are making. Surely with domesticated horses, just teaching them leg aids is a simple dulling of a horses natural responce to lean into pressure!

For the original poster: I'd be interested in hearing how long he's been out with the herd and during that time, how much you've interacted with him. What did those interactions include? Tina is right, they are herd animals who find safety in numbers. By chance, you may have lost your place in his herd and he no longer sees you as a herd member, and therefore the behavior. If you can, give us some more details :)

[Mehitabel]

if i hadn't dulled petal's natural responses a bit i'd be on the floor every time i rode! a horse's natural response to something on its back that won't let go is to buck it off - it's a predator. the natural response to a sound in the bushes is to whip round and run away in case it's a tiger. we'd never hack out alone - her natural respoonse its to stay with her herd...
i agree that it's a natural response to want to stay with the herd - but *you* are the horse's herd, and he needs to remember that he's not alone, he's with you.

it does sound like your chap has just forgotten about interacting politely with people - how much handling has he had during his month off?

if it were me, i'd be being firmer, leading in a bridle to make sure i stayed safe, and re-educating him about moving over from pressure, not getting in my space and general manners.

[Tina&Dale]

Tootsie:

Hmm, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of riding aids but rather in regard to behavioral responses generally associated or defined as "bad manners"/"bad behaviour"; such as threatening, biting or kicking. These are instinctual responses to uncomfortable stimulants and I think it is really important that these not be hindered as they tell a horse person a lot about the horse’s general well-being.

As for leg aids, I'm afraid I don't understand which ones you mean because I can think of none that restrict this leaning. Horses that lean into pressure usually do so as they do not have the required balance to achieve what is being asked of them so I do not think that this is dulling a natural response.

I probably contradict myself a lot! I have formed my opinions from a rather eclectic selection of sources. However I always try to ensure my practices do not restrict the horse from being a horse!

[Tootsie4U]

To each his own. :)

One things for sure, last winter when my horse cut his rear cannon bone and pasturn on ice, I had to clean the wound daily. If I hadn't taught him to dull his instinct to kick out at the sting of the antiseptic, I may not be here to tell the story ;)

Not leaning to pressure of a leg aid: leg yield, as one example.


Two words for Susara: Parelli & Lyons - it'll fix it

[Tina&Dale]

Originally posted by Es
a horse's natural response to something on its back that won't let go is to buck it off - it's a predator. the natural response to a sound in the bushes is to whip round and run away in case it's a tiger.

Again that's not what I meant. Please read my last post.

In response to your reply... "Overcomming" natural responses and "dulling" them are two very different things. Both the above examples you've mentioned I see as "overcoming" natural responses.

When I speak of "dulling" I mean something very different; restricting the horse from reacting naturally to a present discomfort. For example. If a horse has pain but is reprimanded to the point where it still has the pain but is not allowed to show that it is in pain.

[Mehitabel]

i think we can let them tell us things without letting them put us in danger. petal is allowed to lift a leg, or to toss her head or something when i'm doing something uncomfortable, but she's not allowed to bite me or kick out.

sometimes i know it hurts, and i have to do it anyway - cleaning a cut, getting the flies out of her ears etc. she needs to lump it, i'm afraid, so when she's let me know, then she has to let me do it anyway.

yes, susara's horse can tell her he'd rather be with his mates - but tough, he has to go and work occasionally, and he can tell her he's anxious without squashing her or dragging her. i have separation anxiety with mine sometimes - we started showing a four year old this year, and she was very worried about going away from her friends and into a show ring on her own. she still got a smack when she tried to barge me over and run back to the lorry.

ps - i have read your last post, but it wasn't there when i posted mine!

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Tina&Dale
For example. If a horse has pain but is reprimanded to the point where it still has the pain but is not allowed to show that it is in pain.

Ah, now see, that I agree with. Well, partially. In no uncertain circumstances can the horse outwardly and purposely try to harm ME! If he bucks out of pain, or throws his head b/c his teeth need attention -that a different story. Its when my physical safety comes into play that the horse is definately NOT allowed to react. For example, my horse may have kicked out when I cleaned his leg only because of the sting, not necessarily to make me stop doing it - But he knew I was back there and I expect him to know better. And he does!

[Susara]

ok, I think I confused things a bit. Actually I want to ask about two things.

First, riding another horse showed me that, even before he fell ill, my horse was a bit of a 'bully'. I would love some advice on how to work on this when he's well enough.

And then secondly there's this sudden dependence on the herd. I guess the two issues are related: probably he never really trusted/respected me, but before he felt confident enough on his own while now he really wants to be close to his buddies.

Someone asked how much attention he's been getting. Since his illness I've tried to at least groom him each time I'm at the stables, about 3 times a week. With riding another horse there wasn't always enough time. But I've always only ridden him three times a week, and he's always been out with the others during the day. Yesterday he was much better, though.

[Dales_Lover]

Hiya

Its funny how after dealing with a different horse, you can easily pick up things that your horse won't let you do?! I was riding at my sisters yard the other week, and picked up many things I'll have to improve with my own horse!

Anyway, back to your situation. You are going to have to show your horse that being you is ok, nothing is going to 'eat' him etc. I can only recommend first you get a good horsey book (Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks is a good one to start off with), get some ideas from that and start building from it. You said you groom him three times a week when you are at the yard - who keeps an eye on him the rest of the time? Maybe if you could get there more often, and spend some more time with him, his trust will build up with you. I also found when building my horses trust up in me, taking her for walks in hand was super fun. She was MUCH better behaved than when being ridden, and her ground manners have improved loads. We have come across countless things and gone past them bravely in-hand, compared to if we were riding past them we would have been back in the yard quicker than you can say 'Jack Flash'!

I'm gald yesterday he was better though - after a while being out in the herd, no wonder he didn't fancy leaving them - but as soon as you can handle him more, and spend more time with him, his confidence and trust in you will improve :)

Hope this helps.

[cvb]

would also like to add that I think when an animal goes through a period of vulnerability, they tend to become more dependent on their "support". This is simply a survival tactic - if an ill horse strays from their herd in the wild - they will be vulnerable to attack.

In practise this can work both ways - if their "support" comes from their human support, they can bond more closely there. Or if it is horsey, they bond to the horse.

Your horse has been ill and vulnerable and hence has developed a dependency on his fellow horses. You need to build his confidence back up - both in you and in himself.

Given his place in the pecking order will have altered a bit, this may be an opportunity to make clear that you are "lead" and work on that "bullying" thing as well. Does the boss horse tolerate barging etc ? No they don't !

But there are better people than me to explain this - suggest you follow up on Tootsie lead :D

[calamity jane]

Hi Susara, Since you have come to the Natural Horsemanship section for help I would suggest you learn the 7 Games of PNH which help you to get trust and respect from your horse. There is a book available called "Natural Horsemanship" by Pat Parelli which helps to explain, using pictures, how you go about it. You can also buy the Partnership pack which is excellent. :)