driving the horse with your seat ????

[MI Horsey]

please help , I have no idea what my instructor means by this .How do I drive or push the horse on with my seat ? Do I have to keep pushing foward ? I can't recall having seen anyone do this .She said now that I have my balance it's time to learn how to drive him with my seat as opposed to my legs .Ok , but how ????I can see this in a posting trot ,but...I'm lost.:(

[Bay Mare]

What she means is grind your butt from the back of the saddle to the front in a futile attempt to get the horse to go faster :mad: Why so many instructors think that this will work I have no idea.

I'm no expert but I DO know that a horse is not a swing. How on earth is applying pressure on his back going to get him moving forwards (apart from to get away from the evil human who is applying pressure to his back).

Sorry ..... bit of a rant there! It wasn't meant against you personally :) I'm not saying that the seat isn't used at all in riding but I have mostly been taught that a 'driving seat' is bad. You don't see dressage riders driving with their seats do you? We spend so much time working on being quiet with our aids, sitting well in the saddle and then up pops the old driving seat thing :rolleyes:

[MI Horsey]

Bay mare , haha trust me I didn't take it pesonally.I don't think that would make any sense either ,how would the horse feel it other than the saddle pushing more against his poor back anyway ?And nope I have never seen anybody ride like that .She's such a good instructor and this is the only thing so far that has come up that just doesn't make any sense to me at all .I took dressage lessons a long time ago and have been told that any aids should be as invisible as possible ,so this contradicts that .Wouldn't that be going against the horses movement rather than with them?

[canadianbeaver]

you are not meant to push with your seat, you're meant to sit back, wait for the jump (thinking your talking about jumping?) and drive with your LEGS. if you push with your seat, your canter will be flat and horrible and the horse will have little or no impulsion which is what you're going for!!!

[Gemma16]

As bay mare said you shouldn't sit heavily on the horse at all which would include driving. This would just encourage the horse to hollow out.

If you are aiming to get the horse goingmore, I would suspect more impulsion is required. If using your legs isn't working try backing it up with a flick of the whip. Could you tell us a littl more about the horse you were advised to do this on? If the horse is particulay lazy maybe transitions and short sharp nudges is what he needs to wake him up. There are plenty of excersices you can do to get better forward motion then using you ass to push into the horse.;)

Hope this has helped a little

[PromiseMe]

Maybe what she means is...dont just sit there and do nothign and act like a passenger that just steers and kicks.
You gotta tell the horse to move forward with your seat as well...like for example if youre cantering, kicking is not the only thing that will keep that horse cantering. You can RIDE the horse, instead of just SITTING there and flapping your legs at its belly. By riding it - sit on it like a rocking horse. When you sit on a rocking horse you dont jsut sit there and expect it to move right? You push it on with your seat... and it also helps for you to sit to the motion of the horses canter. Thats just stuff my instructor told me when i started cantering a while back.
(No, you dont GRIND your butt into the saddle and into the horses back...)
And I think it kinda creates momentum for the horse to keep cantering as well ;)

[Bay Mare]

Originally posted by PromiseMe
(No, you dont GRIND your butt into the saddle and into the horses back...)

Well actually that IS the effect of a 'driving seat' which is the question that was asked! If you read what I put you will see that I used the word 'grind' to imply that it isn't a good thing to do. Unfortunately there are still instructors out there that teach that.

Can I just ask you a couple of things (or give you a couple of things to think about)?

How is moving your seat backwards and forwards going to create momentum? How is riding it like a rocking horse going to make your horse move? No-one was suggesting that you just 'flap' your legs about, if you use your leg and weight aids correctly there is no need to try and create movement with your body. How can putting pressure on the horses back help him to work correctly? It's more likely to make him hollow away from you which is the opposite of what we want!

Yes, you need to be able to move with and absorb the horse's movement whether in walk, trot or canter but that doesn't mean that you need to ACTIVELY push with your butt! As much as possible you should try and be as still as you can be when you're riding so that the horse can keep in balance, if you're moving backwards and forwards you're constantly changing your balance and, therefore, making it more difficult for him.

Take a look at this link on New Rider:

http://www.newrider.co.uk/Kinder_Way/The_Paces/canter.html


I have another simulator at home which is purely rider powered, i.e. it acts on springs. If the rider scoops the backside into the saddle, 'polish the saddle' as you hear some instructors advocate, the machine reacts by 'bottoming' on it's springs and nearly bucking the rider off! The sobering thought is that if it does this to a machine, how much worse must it feel to the horse?

and this one:

http://www.newrider.co.uk/Kinder_Way/The_Aids/seat_aids.html


The aids of the seat are often misconstrued by instructors, who for some completely illogical reason, seem to think that trying to push or drive the horse forwards with your seat, that it will make him go faster. The very opposite is the case, and why so many riding school horses end up very lazy and hard to get moving. When the rider pushes the seat into the saddle, from back to front is usual, it prevents the horse's back from working freely, and slows or stops him from going forward.

[kedwards]

I would give your instructor the benefit of the doubt and ask her to explain for herself what she means. People sometimes use the same words to mean entirely different things.

[MI Horsey]

canadianbeaver: No,I'm not talking about jumping ,just flatwork

Gemma16: This is a pretty lazy quarterhorse mix named Beavis .He likes to ignore leg aids but responds great to any balance issue .But ,in his defense , he is a schoolhorse and ridden mostly by beginners so he probably thinks leg aid don't mean anything most of the time anyway .

PromiseMe:I 'm not a passenger rider and I do go with the horses movement .From what I was told (and excuse my if this is wrong ,I am no expert )if you apply too much pressure to the back,this would cause the back to drop and the horse not beeing able to move his legs under him very well .

didn't really mean to start a discussion:o
Anyways,Bay Mare I agree with everything you have said so far !!!!

[Wally]

Imagine givine a kiddywink an piggy back on your shoulders. If the child sits still and lets you do the work they are SO easy to carry. When they start to wriggle and squirm it is imposible to keep your balance and work under them.

Now think how a horse feels with a wriggle bottom on board. IF you drive with your seat the horse will think you are about to fall off and stop....our lot do anyway.

Having a lazy seat is one thing, having a driving seat is not going to help the horse at all.

You need to know how to move with the horse to make his life carrying you, as easy as possible.

Driving with the seat will make him hollow and run out from under you, rather than lifting his back into the space you have made for him by moving with him.

[PromiseMe]

I actually dont do the rocking horse motion thing but a few of my very good friends (taught from the same instructor as me, in same lessons) do that and it works VERY successfully for them. And she is a highly competent instructor - with certifcation, experience and is a fantastic rider. Its more like using your hips to push them on than grinding your butt. Maybe its more of a HIP motiion that grinding with your butt!
And it works well for them - very well. They get the laziest horses moving...lazy horses that need to be ridden with spurs - they can get them to canter without it..

I can actualy get a horse cantering very well with only my seat and I wish i could explain how its done, but i cant...and i dont grind my seat into his back either. My new instructor today said that I encourage the horse to go fast because of the way i sit to his canter (& never used my legs)....and too fast lol!

Ive actually tried the rocking horse motion, but than i end up posting to the canter which doesnt work to well for me

But i was just throwing out any possible ideas and thoughts, and gee sorry if i was trying to help.


Edited to add:
MI horsey - I NEVER said u were a passenger on a horse. I have never seen you ride or any pictures at all - i wouldnt make such an accusation. and im sorry if you misinterpreted my meaning.

[**Krista**]

Well.. my instructor says (and i agree) that its all about going with the horse. To create a fluid, forward motion you need to go with the horses movement. this means moving your hips with the backward/forward motion of the horse. It does not mean 'grinding'. There should be no downwards pressure in the movement. You should be sitting still and deep and moving with the horse. This is why the horse continues forward and you get the more forward movement, because the horse isnt fighting against your seat. I think you will find that if you are sitting to any gait, if you move with the horse you can a consistent forward motion. If you are stiff and unmoving then the horse will slow down because it is uncomfortable for them.

This is probably what your instructor is trying to explain to you, although not very well!! There should be no downward force which could be construed as grinding! Hope this has helped...:D

[cvb]

MI Horsey

I think what we are ALL trying to say is that you can influence the horse a lot with your seat. But this can be both positive and negative ! Influence the wrong way and the horse will dip his back away, affecting his ability to work in a "correct" way. Influence in the "right" way and you get a light, forward, active horse that thinks his rider is the bees knees !

Pat Parelli has a simple thing - he suggests you ask your horse to go by "smiling with all 4 cheeks". Sounds utterly ridiculous - but it works ! Now if a horse can feel that small a muscle movement, then I have to have pretty good control and self-awareness. Its something we all work at :)

The problem with using lots of leg to move is that it tends to end up with

- the riders leg coming away from the saddle. Now when you are not in contact with the horse, not only does it affect you balance but also you have lost your abbility to communicate with those legs cos they are not in connection with the horse and his nervous system !

and/or
- the rider can end up gripping up and hence coming out of the seat - again affecting balance and connection

So - if you are going to use less leg, how else can you communicate ? Your seat/weight are in contact with the horse (ok - via the saddle unless you are bareback !) and offer an ideal method of communication.

[side note: isn't it interesting how we are happy to "drive" a horse from the ground e.g. when lunging, but it has this bad connotation from the saddle ?!]

Check with your instructor - but she could just be asking you simply to create more energy and activity.

Become aware of how your own rhythm affects the horse. e.g. if you are rising/posting and rise a fraction slower, or a fraction faster, the horse will normally try to match you. If you are sitting and simply "still" all your energy - and dampen the movement - the horse will slow and ultimately stop. If you "up" the energy, so will he.

Just be careful when you "up" the energy that you are not actually having the opposite of the required effect by blocking the horse's energy and "pushing" them flat and slow. Its like surfing a wave - the horse's back needs to lift underneath you :)

edit: trying to think of an analogy. Though I'm not a big ballroom dancer, I suspect its a bit like "leading" the dance. i.e. you have to influence your partner. But if you just try and drag them around, they lose balance and it no longer looks graceful and together. So you have to still allow them to do their own dancing, but they need to be dancing with you, with you leading.

does that help at all or am I waffling again ? ;)

[Lenvale]

Message deleted

[cvb]

Lenvale

The problem in a lot of riding is that we are trying to decsribe quite complex "feels" in words which just fail to do the whole thing justice :rolleyes: ;)

Sally Swift (Centered Riding) and NLP show how much a simple word or image affects our whole body.
Your description talks about use of lower body

"holding" in collection with the lower body and "pushing" the stride out as you lengthen

but in fact whatever you do with lower body will affect the whole of you, cos its all connected !
;) :D

But you can achieve the overall effect you want by using the right thought or image, which may focus on ONE part of you.

The trouble is that someone else may interpret those exact same words into a different movement and feel, which will have a very different result. Another example of this is the "bracing the back" thing (says she opening up another can of worms !). There is a movement which is entirely correct which some people describe as "bracing the back". But in other people the same phrase results in a tense blocking horrible thing which does not work with the horse.

Mind you, all of the above is why we can't just read a book and then know it all ! Thats why we need a coach or trainer to help us know that we are interpreting correctly and getting the right feel, connection, result.

Ultimately the proof is in the pudding - when you work with your instructor do you feel you are working with, not against, the horse, that you are in balance, and that you get an improved result as a consequence of what she says ? As the saying goes "if it aint broke, don't fix it". I think there is also a quote from a NH trainer who says that if someone told him that he could achieve what he wanted by riding backwards, and it worked, then he'd do it.

In other words, use your own self-awareness to assess whether a particular thing works or not. If it works, add it your toolbox. The bigger toolbox you have, the more options you have to work with a horse in harmony.

(ooops - here endeth the lesson ! Sorry if that got a bit "preach"y ! :o )

[ladora Flood]

Hi Dani,

I found the replies to your question interesting. It sounds as if you are having an impulsion problem.

Why not be a passenger? Have just enough "life" in your body as if you were doing the gait yourself. Take a "passenger lesson". Why should you do the work? It is his responsibility! Get his respect then will come the impulsion. Read about the Parellii or Anderson passenger lessons.

The idea is the horse just has to do one thing. He has to trot until you tell him otherwise or canter until you tell him otherwise. You just have to do one thing which is relax with only enough "life" in your body to suggest to the horse the gait you want. You give him a totally loose rein and he can go anywhere he wants.

Say you asked him to canter and he breaks into a trot. You just let him and then ask him to canter again by a soft squeeze. If that doesn't work, cluck (or say canter). If that doesn't work spank yourself with the end of the rein. If that doesn't work start spanking lower and longer on his flanks until it does.

Eventually, to find the "comfort zone" he will have the impulsion you want. He'll get lighter and require less.

I know this is probably very foreign to traditional riding lessons. It's natural horsemanship. It might not fit with riding a horse that is not yours or an environment that won't allow it. But it is a good way to liven up those lazy horses. It becomes their idea, not yours and so they are happy to do it. LaDora

[PromiseMe]

Originally posted by ladora Flood
. Read about the Parellii or Anderson passenger lessons.



I've actually tried one of the Parelli passenger lessons....very interesting and really does help quite some! It helps from canter transition to developoing a stronger seat to being in harmony with your horsey...

[MI Horsey]

OK.so I asked my instructor yesterday and she said that while I do seem to move with the horse ,I tend to use my legs to much and I'ma little stiff in the hip wich makes him slow down as I don't have any impulsion (ha , there's that word again ) ,or was it that he doesn't because of what i do ?
I had it then I lost it , well ..... I suppose it's going to take me awhile to get this right .I just ordered centered riding because my instructor recommended it . so thanks for all the input and advice .
the one thing she never meant was grinding your buttt into the saddle (thank god !!!!)

[Ap Nudd]

I've been following this thread with interest, because it's something that's frustrated me. Thanks to all of you for your advice.

MI Horsey said:
I had it then I lost it , well ..... I suppose it's going to take me awhile to get this right .I

Yes, I get that - flashes of moving in harmony, a feeling of gliding, almost, then it goes again as I lose the rhythm. But it gives me an indication of how it should feel - and it'll come with practice.

[Bay Mare]

Originally posted by MI Horsey
the one thing she never meant was grinding your buttt into the saddle (thank god !!!!)


That IS good :) The only time that I've been told to use a 'driving seat' was when they DID mean to grind your butt into the saddle :rolleyes: This was from a BHS II too!!!! Thankfully, in your case, it was just the terminology that was 'wrong' :)

[Jinete789]

Originally posted by Bay Mare
That IS good :) The only time that I've been told to use a 'driving seat' was when they DID mean to grind your butt into the saddle :rolleyes: This was from a BHS II too!!!!

Bay Mare, I was taught that as a child too! (a LONG time ago) Only unlearned it when returing to riding as an adult. It was all brought back to me at the "your horse live" show in Warwickshire last year when Tim Stockdale did a v. funny (only slightly exaggerated) impersonation of someone riding like that. He also said it gives you a big bottom, so maybe I should sue my childhood riding instructor for the shape I've turned out:D

Jin

[cvb]

Yeah - Mark Rashid did a neat demo on this subject.

He comments a lot on the similarity between how we move, and how a horse moves, and how we just need to match that.

Then he walks along and "pushes with his seat" - looks very weird and has everyone giggling and getting the point ;)

If doing that wouldn't help YOUR walk, why would it help your horse ??!:D