Catching Horse While Doing Parelli Level 1

[taylors_gracie]

Hi! I'm just starting Parelli's Level 1 program and loving it. Problem is my horse doesn't want to be caught. Now, I realize this is something I am learning to get better at through Parelli, but in order to get her to start the games and stuff, I need to catch her. And I don't think I should use my previous method of following and cornering her, as this goes against the concepts of Parelli. And the ignoring her thing doesn't work yet. Anyone know what I should do to catch her (in about a 1/2 acre field) until she learns to "catch me"? I guess I could just make sure I have a ton of time and see if she will eventually yield using the advance/retreat methods.

I'd like to get started on this but don't want to mess her up! Thanks for any help! :)

[galadriel]

I've got a number of suggestions in this article:
http://lorienstable.com/articles/handling/100-catch/

[taylors_gracie]

Thank you! Great suggestions! I shall try it.

[galadriel]

Good luck :)

[cvb]

Taylors_gracie

Just to say that when my mare is in the arena, we can do the "catching" task from L1 no problem.

But we went through a phase outside where it was not so easy. I think initially she was trying to tell me she was a bit sore - she had some "unleveness" this summer. So I backed off and did lots of easy stuff, friendly game. But then she decided it was funny to play. When she does this, making a fuss of the others and ignoring her is the best bet - as you are not meeting her wish to play.

In the meantime, they get to go out on 7 acres for an hour or two every day, and its my mum or dad that bring them back in. Fi thought this was a good game too :rolleyes: So she goes out with her headcollar on. This seems to have a pyschological effect as well as making it physically easier to catch her. My mum catches 2 of the 3 and the third one normally follows.

But you should see my dad bring them in. He's good with animals but not really horsey. He goes out with my carrot stick and uses body language to head all three of them in the right direction without catching them. I'd heard about him doing this but not seen it til the other weekend. It was very impressive ! A classic use of body language - I was dead proud !

[Yann]

No idea about Parelli, but just to say that I've used methods similar to those Galadriel describes on several horses and they've worked every time.

[cvb]

Yann - well that makes sense cos Parelli is training the owner not the horse ;) (And yes, I know you know that :D)

Until I come home and find Fi reading "A good horse is never a bad colour" or "Natural Horse-man-ship" or whatever other book - then she just trains me the best way she knows how :p (and very effective it is too). Actually she'd probably be WRITING it :rolleyes:

[taylors_gracie]

Thanks everyone for the input! I spent 3 hours just trying to get near her yesterday. She finally came close to me, when she started getting hungry, but stupidly I didn't give her a treat and walk away. I just left at a point when she was coming to me. (never close enough to catch, mind you). Now today, I am on the other wrong end of the spectrum. I went straight out there with treats. Of course she came to me. I would give her the treat then walk away. Eventually I just went up to her and gave her some grain and pet her lots while she was eating it. Never caught her. I know, probably not a good thing to do, but at least I finally was able to pet her, and maybe show her that it's "good" to be close to me??

I will be less bribing next time I go see her when I have more time. I just felt like I had to build a little bit of trust with her this morning. I am sooo frustrated...but I have faith it will happen. :)

[cvb]

what's the weather like where you are at this time of year ? Is it warm enough to set up a chair in the field and read a book ?

Even tho' "ignoring her" may still not lead to catching her at this stage, it will help establish that you are a non-threatening person who is prepared to hang out with her and just "be" without having to "do" stuff.

Sounds like you've made a good start and you just need the patience of a saint to keep it going nice and slowly.

[taylors_gracie]

Yeah, cvb, I think I will just slow it down right now. I have done the sit out there and ignore her thing. And walking around ignoring her with my carrot stick in hand. She is somewhat curious when I do that, but acts like she doesn't care. :) I think you're right. I need to do more of that. It's my own fault. I've conditioned her to expect that I will corner her and catch her without her permission and that we won't spend alot of time on fun stuff for her. So I will do more spending time with her, ignoring her, interspersed with some approach/retreat at other times, before I move on in the program. After all, if I can't catch her, I can't do anything else! ;)

And the weather is off and on pretty nice here in my town of Cool, California (yes, really). I'm so thankful for that! :cool:

[galadriel]

Originally posted by taylors_gracie
I know, probably not a good thing to do, but at least I finally was able to pet her, and maybe show her that it's "good" to be close to me??

Actually, sounds like good progress. Getting her to come to you and get more relaxed about your presence (even if it initially involves bribing) is probably a good step along the way.

With luck you'll eventually be able to catch her without too much stress on her part; once you have gotten to that point, catching her briefly and then turning her out again should help you a lot. It's good for them to experience a positive result when they allow themselves to be caught. In the meantime, just getting her willing to come up to you and spend a little time near you is just fine, it's a move in the right direction.

[taylors_gracie]

Thank you so much for the support! It's really helping me a lot! I can't wait to go visit Gracie tomorrow! What's so frustrating is that once I catch her she's got quite good manners. But I'm learning that it's more because she feels she has to rather than that she wants to. She also had some, let's say, rough handling, in her past, so she has some stuff to overcome. I also have to overcome my bad horse habits of the past. ;) And I know we are both going to improve so much from this process!

Thanks again! I'm feeling better now! :D

[cvb]

Eventually I just went up to her and gave her some grain and pet her lots while she was eating it.

also meant to say - what you did (above) can work really well. A colleague at my old work bought some wild youngsters and needed to socialise them. She basically did what you said above every night. Fed them, and groomed them or petted them while they were there. Again you have to take it slowly as the first step is for them just to let you be near when they eat. But over time the trust built up and they could do more and more.

The difference here is that the feed is not a reward - cos they already have it ! But it is a positive thing about being close to you.

[Carmen]

Hi, when i started Parelli my mare was difficult to catch aswell. I had just put her in a field with another mare that was also hard to catch so they both learnt off each other to run and run and run.

I went inside and watch the catching game, then made a round coral in the field, rounded my horse in there (with some help) and practiced the catching game. Now i have no problem. If she walks away, she knows ill make it uncomfortable for her so she turns her bum away and gives me both eyes.

If you want to do everything Parelli way then id suggest you do what i did and round your horse into a coral and play the catching game. They soon learn.

Good Luck with the Parelli

Jo

[taylors_gracie]

Hi Carmen. Thanks for your reply! I only have the Level 1 program and it doesn't have the catching game on it. At least I haven't found it. It does have a few tips on how to get your horse with their permission, and using approach and retreat. I don't have a round pen yet, but where I'm confused is I thought I wasn't supposed to make her uncomfortable when catching her (i.e. rounding her up into the corral), that I was supposed to make her WANT to come to me. I'm very curious about what the catching game involves. I wish they would have went into more detail about how to correctly catch in Level 1. I mean it's definitely not an issue of being ABLE to catch her. I can catch her in 5 minutes by walking her up against the fence, and swinging my rope on either side to get her to stand still. But I though that would ruin the whole concept of gaining her trust. But again, I'm very curious about the catching game, cause obviously it teaches you how to do it the right way. Maybe they wait til later in the program to make sure you have ALREADY built the "partnership" and trust with your horse?

Thanks again for the input! I really appreciate it! And it's nice to find others here who are doing/have done Parelli! I do love the program!

Shannon

[cvb]

Shannon

Have you ever seen Pat or one of his senior instructors ? It really helps to understand that this is not all about being nicey nicey - its about giving "Love, Language, Leadership". A lead mare pulls faces, threatens, nips etc - and also grooms, protects, supports...

Both sides of the coin !

"Trust" isn't just about being nice. Its about knowing where you stand, and where the boundaries are - about being consistent.

I read a quote recently about someone watching a mother with a mis-behaving child, whose behaviour she was just accepting without comment. The guy (can't remember who) said "Madam, the first time you lift your hand to that child will be to defend yourself".

YOU are lead horse - if he does what you say (be caught) THEN you can play Friendly Game. But if not, then you add some pressure. Reward the right behaviour with Friendly. But don't reward unwanted behaviour with Friendly ! Else you are letting them know that this behaviour is ok with you, when it isn't !

I am not talking agression etc - just a real "phase 4" of pressure.

[taylors_gracie]

cvb,
I love the way you put that. It clarifies a lot. I do get the whole thing about not rewarding unwanted behavior and being the leader. I guess I'm just having a hard time finding that balance, with catching, since they stress sooo much that the horse has to give you permission to be caught. And they don't explain what to do if they won't give you permission.

So do you think at this early point in the program, I should consider her mis-behaving if she won't be caught? And what specifically should I do then? How should I make her "uncomfortable" when she doesn't let me get her? Maybe sort of like what Galadriel's article said about you being the one to keep them moving (sort of like longeing in a Big arena) until they get tired of it. hmmmm, I think maybe I should try that. That actually does sound like it matches Parelli's program more than simply trapping them. I wonder if that's what the catching game is? Anyone know? I'm ready to try it!!

By the way, it is getting better with her I think. I've been just spending time with her, along with some giving her treats. And she does come when I walk up. She just doesn't like me to get her. But I did get her in halter and did a little bit of friendly game with her yesterday. Maybe catching is already less of an issue and will improve as I continue in the program.

[taylors_gracie]

Yay! We're making progress! I caught her today, she was very calm for friendly game rubbing, and I even got her to accept the carrot stick on most of her body! Something actually worked by the book today! I'm amazed and happy! :) I think she really appreciated that I came out in the pouring rain to work with her!!

In Parelli, I'm in the friendly game lesson. And these are the first instructions given: "You should not start telling a horse what to do until you have proven to him that you are friendly and you have earned his confidence."..."Even if this is all you have time for in this first session, invest it in proving to your horse that you are trustworthy and have only friendly intentions." So I'm starting to get it I think. Yes, there are ways you can catch with leadership methods (telling the horse to do it), but I think right now at this very beginning stage (first lesson where I actually catch the horse), they are asking you to hold back on that a bit to first PROVE I'm a friendly type. Then in the future games and catching when I'm more assertive, she will respond better because she remembers I'm friendly. Omigosh, does that make ANY sense? LOL!

Thanks again for ALL your help! It has been so valuable to getting where we are now!

[cvb]

Taylors_gracie

I think you've got it already - there is a difference between "predator" behaviour where you corner and trap a horse, and lead-prey behaviour where you assert your leadership !

So yes, the process Galadrial described, and Harry Hobbes has described in other posts, is about the second of above - by making them move, you are asserting your leadership :p

I think it can make horses quite unsettled if they don't know where they stand with you - who's boss ? who's looking after them ? etc

So even tho you are being firm and sometimes asking them to do things they find uncomfortable, you often find it comes along with a real feel of relief from the horse :D And they don't actually mind if you "got it wrong" cos at leats you are trying to lead !

(Doesn't mean they won't let you know that they think you got it wrong ! One of my early attempt at sideways was too much, too fast, too soon - and Fi flicked a hind leg out in frustration. A very clear signal that she was trying but couldn't do what I seemed to be asking her to do. So I stopped and slowed down and we started to work it out between us ;) )

[calamity jane]

Taylors Gracie, Hi! Sounds like you are heading in the right direction I beleive you need to use what you can to be effective in catching your horse. If I have a horse that is hard to catch I actually use join-up which can be done in a paddock if necesary, but preferably in a smaller area. You need to take the time it takes to get the job done. This entails driving the horse around in both directions until it concedes that you are its leader. It shows this by locking on to you with its ear, then licking its lips, then dropping its head. As soon as it does this you turn away from it and stand still. The horse will turn and face you and sometimes come in to you If it doesnt come in you can arc around it both ways and it will start to follow your movements. Then you can rub it on the forehead and walk off. If it follows you you have joined up, if not you need to send it around again for a while and do the same thing again. Then you can start to rub the horse all over keeping yourself in a safe position. ( advance /retreat) Once you have joined up you only have to send them around a few times, if they go to move away from you ,when you go to catch them and they will turn and come in to you. You can catch them using food (Always in a bucket) but it doesnt allways work, where-as join-up does. From there you can go thru your Level 1. I have started many young horses using joinup and they always stand for picking up their feet saddling etc. If you follow the Parelli program from your packs and advance thru to Level 3 it helps you to overcome any problems that arise.s :)

[taylors_gracie]

Thank you Calamity Jane and cvb!

It all makes so much more sense to me now! Thanks to tips from you all here, she now is much easier to catch, but I am sure I will at some point be using the join-up/making them move method. Now that I see this described, I realize this is how my farrier caught my horse one day when I couldn't. Back then, I did not understand why he was MAKING my horse run away from him. It didn't make sense to me why he would run the horse off when he was trying to catch her. LOL! NOOOW I get it!! :)

[taylors_gracie]

Well I used the make her move method to catch her for the first time. I have to admit I felt so bad doing it at the time. I was so afraid the work we had done to bond was going to be ruined. I was worried that she was percieving me as someone to be afraid of. She eventually just got tired (she's pretty out of shape) and just stopped and let me get her. Don't know if that's how it's supposed to work, but we'll see what happens when I go out there today. Also, she was very calm as usual once I got her. And we're both getting better at the ground games.

[Yann]

I've used that method on a few horses that were bad catchers and it's worked every time. It's a sort of join up and is even more effective if you use contrasting dominant / passive body language.

I've never found it harmful to the relationship, because it isn't a case of chasing the horse till it can't run any more. What you are actually doing is playing boss horse, driving the subject horse away and controlling its direction which is how they assert authority over each other. That is how your horse will see you, rather than as a scary predator unless it has issues with people for any reason. Once the horse stops you immediately take the pressure off, back away and then approach in a submissive posture, which is what a dominant horse will do when making a friendly approach to a horse lower in the pecking order.

It's also a form of pressure and release which to a large extent is the language of horses, and the basis for all the different NH training methods.

[taylors_gracie]

Thank you Yann. I was a little confused about at what point I should stop driving her around and come in, and what to do at that point. So the part about waiting for her to stop, then taking the pressure off really helped. I had to do it again yesterday and that was very helpful to keep in mind. At one point though, she stopped and I thought she would stay there. I got all the way up to her and she suddenly went away quick. So at first I tried to retreat, but she was not interested--she had gone far off. So I resumed with driving her. I hope that was the right thing to do. Shortly after that, she stopped and I was able to approach. It really seems to be working. And once I catch her, she's always respectful and quiet. That rather confuses me, but I need to focus on the long term program.

Thank you for your help!

[Yann]

No probs, glad I was of some use (for a change:D).

The first or even the second stop doesn't necessarily lead to a catch, I think they're often testing to see what will happen and if you really mean it. If I approach and they start to move off then I immediately seize the initiative by actively driving them away again, it also seems to help if you can 'snake' them from side to side a bit. It's almost uncanny how they'll stand quite happily and be caught once they decide to isn't it, as if there wasn't a problem in the world:D

It would probably be possible to actually get a join up if you were skilled enough with your body language, but I'm happy enough with a horse that doesn't run off:)

[cvb]

just had another look at the "Catching Game" DVD the other night.

This is Pat in a round pen with horse. He basically throws the rope in their direction of they are not giving him "two eyes" and the instant they even think of looking at him with both eyes he takes the pressure of, and adopts passive body language and walks away to give them space.

So in simple language, he IS "chasing" the horse but its a question of how and so on.

Also he advises starting in smaller round pen and only going into a bigger space when you have the principles established.

don't spose you know anyone who is in the Savvy Club and could lend you the DVD ?

[taylors_gracie]

Originally posted by cvb
Also he advises starting in smaller round pen and only going into a bigger space when you have the principles established.


I think this is the key right here! I'm chasing her around in over a 1/2 acre field. But at least I'm getting good exercise! LOL! But it actually seems to be working so I'll stick to it for now. And thank you! It's great that every time you nice folks give me new input, it's sooo helpful. I love the concept of having two eyes, then go to approach/retreat mannerisms.

I don't know anyone in the savvy club yet, but I'm thinking about joining, then I will meet some. :)

Thanks again!

[shoniedaspony]

you worry about a 1/2 acre field, think about when your horse starts galloping around a 13 acres field...thanks galadriel, your article is my new bible! will do a lot of work as we wenter xmas hols on this. she isnt so bad now but could be better. although i do think as shes 13 yrs old now it should have been started a little earlier:rolleyes: but shes not mine so i deal with what i have now!
good luck :D