Oh my, oh my - Oh my GAWD!

[Tootsie4U]

My boss just called and our gray Morgan is going to be used in Monty Roberts' demonstration tomorrow at Equine Affaire! To top it off, she asked if I was coming cuz she might need me to help!


Can you imagine - meeting the man himself! :o

[T-bred]

That's AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Anna

[Colorado Sunset]

Yey, thats really exciting!! Good luck, sounds like itl be a great day!! :)

Jo

[hackedoff]

eeeeeeek! <weakknees>

[KarinUS]

Okay. Now BREATHE... and don't do anything embarrassing like faint, etc!!! :D

[shirley]

Saw Monty Roberts two weeks ago in UK. It was brilliant, made a lasting impression on me. Please keep posted of how you get on and how everything went. What did you need to do to get your horse chosen for demonstration?

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U



Can you imagine - meeting the man himself! :o

Don't tell Jennj about it. I remember when she was at school she was always going on about working for him :D

[Tootsie4U]

Well! Lets just say I lost all my respect for the man...

I have heard many mixed messages about him and his techniques. I have read his books, and I am a believer in the join up method (with limitations ;) ) but what I saw in person isnt quite what I would call 'natural horsemanship'

He took our stallion as a demonstration on how to tame the spooky horse. (It was the gray Morgan "Woody" for anyone who was at Equine Affaire this past weekend) . We bought Woody from a stock farm in the North East. He came to us wild - wasnt even halter broke. Mr. Roberts attempts to sack him out with plastic bags and umbarellas, all the while yanking on the Dually halter to keep the horse at his side. IMO, he wasnt training the horse to respect him OR the scary objects, rather to respect the pressures created by the Dually halter. Seemed he trained by dulling the horse to the stimulus, even if it was done in a manner I dont entirely agree with. But, granted he only had an hour and a half to do it....

I wasnt impressed.

[KarinUS]

That's disappointing. I've heard enough negative stuff to not be that excited about him before your report, but this is just too bad.
:(
I think the only horsemen I truly would love to see are Mark Rashid and Walter Zettl.

[Mehitabel]

poor woody.

[cvb]

I guess the problem with "desensitizing" is that you are only working on tolerance to that specific stimulus in that specific situation. Rather than working on general trust of the world etc...

A bit like my girl - who gets used to cattle in a specific field but sees the same cattle in a different field as scary again :rolleyes:

seems like it would be quite a fine line in practice - to make sure that you are allowing enough "retreat" to keep the lesson generic ? (rather than impelling them to stay close and let the nasty thing be near them)

I've seen Monty in action previously - but hadn't thought of it in the way Tootsie said. But I understand completely what she's saying.

[lisae]

when we were visiting you and he didn't seem like the wound-up type to me. Do you think the session set him back in any way? probably hard to know if you haven't worked with him since.... did Monty attempt or achieve join up with him?

[Tootsie4U]

Woody was a basket of nerves afterwards - sweating so much that it looked as if he just had a bath. Roberts ended his demo with Woody walking beside him while he held the umbarella over his head. Anyone with half a brain could see the lead line clentched on the Dually halter pulling the horse along.

He didnt do join up at all the day I was there. He used Woody to demonstrate the "approach and retreat" method to desensitize the horse. Granted, I agree but the way he did it was very rushed and he forcably held the horse in a spot by using the same principles as a stud chain over the nose!

It wasnt just Woody either. He brought in a cronic bucker - strapped tarps and a fake person on his back and purposely tried to make the horse buck. When it did, slam slam slam on the Dually.

[KarinUS]

Jerk. Another one of the NH on my *&^%list! :mad: :D

[Tootsie4U]

Oh my. I should mention that I AM NOT trying to give him a bad rep. I think his join up work is good and was my first real true insight into the natural way horses work. However, what I saw in person was rushed and forced and not at all NH! I do think alot of it had to do with his time limits tho.

[cvb]

you know I'm curious about the sweating thing - I'm sure its mental not physical.

At the Parelli conference a couple of years ago one of the horses got very warm (Snoopy, for those who were there !) but Pat really wasn't doing much with him physically, it was all very calm - I mean other than being in front of a couple of hundred people ! - yet the horse sweated buckets.

Without anthropomorphising (thats a long word for a Monday and I aint sure I spelt it right !), I think this is the emotional stress kicking in. At the end of the session the horse is calm and happy, but soaked ! I think thats one reason why you can't do long sessions with certain horses cos they'd get dehydrated and so on.

[KarinUS]

Yes, but ultimately this is where you can distinguish horsemen from businessmen:

INTEGRITY

When putting on a good show and selling as many gadgets as possible becomes more important than the quality of the work, then we have lost the value of it altogether.

Time shouldn't matter. Putting on a good show shouldn't matter. Selling lots of gadgets shouldn't matter.

That's why I find it so easy to respect people like Mark Rashid (and don't anyone dare to post somethign negative about him now :D ;) ). No line of specially endorsed training tools. No Las Vegas shows. Just a genuine interest in the horse.

[blumke99]

I think Monty has done a lot for the overall cause of training horses. All the Las Vegas showmanship has its place - its got the method into the press and the public domain which is a good thing. I know people wont always like the way he goes about it, or agree with the technique, but he's done a lot to make kinder alternatives mainstream and stop the use of beating as a training method.

When I saw his UK Towerlands show, he was so defensive in his talks and its obvious he's under constant criticism, and I think that's sad. Even if he's isn't 100% perfect, and even if he is a businessman as well as a horseman, at least he stands for the right principles and he's vocal about them. Even if his method isn't the holy grail, I'll respect him for his contribution to finding it.

I think its part revolution and part evolution, and Monty has contributed to it even if he hasn't taken us all the way....

[KarinUS]

All the Las Vegas showmanship has its place - its got the method into the press and the public domain which is a good thing.

I see your point but when showmanship gets in the way of the message (when it no longer works FOR the horse) then I think it has gone too far. In my opinion that is the case here.

[blumke99]

Can't comment on your particular experience as I didn't see that show, but I can imagine as he wasn't overly gentle with the halter when I saw him!

I think the demo over here was quite good, but I can see how he could try and achieve too much in too little time in something which is more of a show than a demo.

[Wobblydeb]

I loved the idea of Monty Roberts work until I saw a programme aired here in the UK a few years ago.

It is the one where he "joins up" with a wild horse?

Basically the poor animal was separated from it's herd and stopped from rejoining them. The team then hounded it for days on end. All I could think was how any animal or human would feel if they had been treated in that way - I never saw it relax or graze other than a few snatched mouthfulls. It eventually gave in and stood still as they approached - I think because the poor thing was resigned to dying because it was too mentally and physically exhausted to try and get away any more.

Then there were suspicious breaks in the film as a saddle and bridle were put onto it, and ta-** it was hailed as backing a wild horse in 30 minutes.

Utterly sickening :mad:

[Mehitabel]

that's exactly how i felt about that programme, wobblydeb. put me right off him.
i was fairly anti-him before that, since at the time he burst onto the public eye i was breaking in and rehabbing problem ponies for a living, and if i had a pound for every person who said 'but isn't that terribly cruel? i heard this monty chap on tv saying that everyone ties horses down and beats them into submission (paraphrase, but ou get the idea) and he is really nice to them' i'd be very rich.

but that programme really upset me, i felt awful for that poor horse.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by KarinUS


INTEGRITY

When putting on a good show and selling as many gadgets as possible becomes more important than the quality of the work, then we have lost the value of it altogether.

Time shouldn't matter. Putting on a good show shouldn't matter. Selling lots of gadgets shouldn't matter.

Las Vegas shows.

Hit the nail on the head, IMO - for what I saw the other day. And as cvb said, none of the horses he used in the demo's left calm or happy - which is the ultimate goal for training NH style.

Kudos to Monty for writing such books to get the public's attention on better ways for horses, but his actions this past weekend spoke louder than the words I read in his book. (And I am a BIG NH fan! so Im not being closed minded!!) Dually halters use pressure on the sensitive parts of the nose. He used the horses responce to the pressure to trick (sorry, cannot think of a better word) the audience into thinking Woody had accepted the umbarella, but in reality the horse was forced to stand near the umbarella.

[cvb]

I agree with Karin's point on integrity

One of the "features" for me of what Pat did with Snoopy was that he said to us words to the effect of "look, I'm not going to get to some kind of breakthrough here, we just have to go at the pace of the horse. and he's done enough for today" and in front of a packed house of people put the horse's needs first.

Ok - in doing so he may have lost one or two who said he hadn't achieved anything - but he GAINED the other couple of hundred who respected that decision.

Plus Snoopy came back the year after and was part of the demo team. So there was clear evidence of long term thinking.

I've only used this as an illustration, not to start a "name" competition. For me the NH concept is not about quick fixes and fast results, its about an underlying approach to everything I do with horses - a "way of life". And that means taking the time that it takes.

[Yann]

Hmmm, can't comment on the demo because I wasn't there, but a few thoughts. I'm surprised you say there was no join up though because that's normally the first thing MR does when working with a horse.

Firstly why so squeamish about pressure? A parelli halter for example is made of much thinner rope and acts all over the head. Potentially a far more damaging piece of equipment in the wrong hands. Furthermore don't we put metal bits in horses sensitive mouths and then apply pressure to them? Again much more effective and uncomfortable than a dually. I know because I often hack out in one, and it definitely gives less control (pain / discomfort?) than even a mild snaffle.

I saw the dually being used firmly once or twice at the demo I went to recently, but the instant the horse yielded the pressure went off. Is that so different to phase 3 or 4 in Parelli? I don't think so. The pressure / release / approach / retreat technique does work, isn't unkind, and does give lasting results. Like I said I can't comment on what happened with that particular demo horse, but all bar one of the horses I saw being worked with came out of the roundpen completely chilled out having taken a huge step forward with their particular problems. And the point about the importance of continuing the work and what had happened being just a start was repeated several times over.

I'm not saying that Monty Roberts isn't capable of getting it wrong sometimes, maybe he does, he's only human after all, but he has done a huge amount of good for horses and owners in his time. When we are all enlightened and look to work kind and sympathetically with our horses it's easy to assume that's the norm but there's still a whole world of cruelty, ignorance and harsh treatment out there. The man still very much has a point and is right to make it heard. Dead easy to knock isn't it.

As for Las Vegas showmanship has anyone been to a Parelli demo lately? Hard sell from start to finish.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Yann
Potentially a far more damaging piece of equipment in the wrong hands.

Really? How so? I have personally tested out all of Bonfire's equipment on my own anatomy. As weird as it sounds, its true (no, I didnt put the bit in my mouth!). After watching MR demo, I went straight to his booth to take a look at the Dually. I put my palm on the manequin horse's nose and had my husband pull the lead and I'll tell you that it hurt, and he wasnt even slamming it the way it was slammed in the demo! Im not going to get into a slinging match about equipment and Im not so nieve to take the approach you've suggested Yann. Pressure is the fundamental tool humans use to train horses. Period. I wouldnt use a Dually only because stud chains were used on my horse for three years of his life and the mental damages it did to him took too long to undo. I also believe that relying on these tools to gain respect is only going halfway. Im not saying it wouldnt work, Im saying I wouldnt use it on my horse and what I saw is not the way I'd want to train my horse. Im saying that the way I saw it used at the demo was with force and restraint.

Originally posted by Yann
The pressure / release / approach / retreat technique does work, isn't unkind, and does give lasting results.

Sure it does. However, yanking the horse into position and holding it there while you swing an umbarella to and fro continuously without any "soak" time only serves to dull the horse to the stimuli. What does it do for respect?

Originally posted by Yann
he has done a huge amount of good for horses and owners in his time. When we are all enlightened and look to work kind and sympathetically with our horses it's easy to assume that's the norm but there's still a whole world of cruelty, ignorance and harsh treatment out there. The man still very much has a point and is right to make it heard. Dead easy to knock isn't it.

I agree. My point wasnt to bad mouth his work. I was completely shocked at what I saw and in no way shape or form would I call it NH! Holding and restraining with ropes (the Dually!) is old fashion cowboy mechanics! Is it not? Well, this is only my opinion of course. And Im not saying you use it that way, or that it is even commonly used the way. Im saying that is the way I percieved it to be used at the demo. And, I have seen a few NH clinics to be able to compare.

I would really like it if there is another member from the USA that may have seen the demo who would comment. It'd be interesting because he did what he came to do. He got Woody walking beside him under the umbarella by the end of it. I wonder if they saw the clentched lead line and understood what it was doing to Woody's nose.

Originally posted by Yann
As for Las Vegas showmanship has anyone been to a Parelli demo lately? Hard sell from start to finish.

Yep, same day in fact. Monty was on at 11 am, Linda went on at 3:30. In contrast, the owner of that demo horse accidently lost hold of the lead line in the colesium within the first few minutes of the show. The horse ran off. Instead of chasing it down, Linda grabbed the owner and did their own version of advance and retreat and guess what..... within ten minutes, the horse hooked on, trotted over to its owner, and walked by her side and Linda would not even allow the owner to pick up the lead line even after it had stayed with them for several minutes. That is what I call good NH. Absolutely no tugging or pulling or mechanical force whatsoever.

[cvb]

I think the discussion about the principles of NH is an interesting one. It also helps reflect and broaden our understanding - explaining something to someone else is a really good way of taking your own learning to a new level.

IMHO Tootsie was just sharing her personal observations....

But lets not forget that the guys who are out there doing the demos etc have to make a living and are in business. So ultimately whether its soft cell (oooops) Soft SELL or Hard Sell, its still "sell".

We still have the choice what we "buy" and what we don't...

(sugar - now I have "tainted love" stuck in my brain.....)

[chev]

Thanks cvb - so have I now!! :rolleyes:

I think that cvb has really summed it up. NH, whoever is presenting it, will always have its merits - but it also needs to sell. Some practitioners sell more than others, but wherever something is moved from, say, a book, into a live demonstration, it's no longer as open to our interpretation and will ultimately always upset someone. It's one thing to read about the pressure/release thing - we use our own definitions and interpretations of it when reading - it's another to watch it, and find the reality doesn't match our ideas. I'm also certain that knowing the horse and the background plays a big part - someone else with no experience of Woody might have seen it a different way.

It's one reason I'm reluctant to go to demonstrations like this - I find it hard to reconcile the show, the hard/soft sell and the actual practical merits of what's being done. Sorry to hear it didn't work for Woody. That's a real shame.

[kelsey]

I have seen Monty Roberts and I was not impressed. I have also read a book that effectively debunks a lot of the history he gives himself in his book. I will leave it at that, except to say that Karin is right about Walter Zettl. He is a wonderful and gentle horseman. I would also put John Lassiter in that category - I attented a clinic of his about a month ago and he was fabulous.

Unfortunately, these two gentlemen are not about the quick fix, which I think a lot of people are looking for nowadays.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by chev
I'm also certain that knowing the horse and the background plays a big part - someone else with no experience of Woody might have seen it a different way.


Actually, Chev, Im being objective in my analysis. Woody shared the demo with two other horses, another stallion and a chronic bucker. The Dually was used on all three in the same manner and like I said before the bucker was antagonised into displaying its problems. He tied tarps on his back, attached a frisbee onto the saddle so it stuck up in the air - purpose only to make him freak out IMO, and then he attached a human manaquein onto his back, tied it down so the horse couldnt get it off, and after the horse literally gave up bucking, he put a real person on board. The horse bucked a few times with the person on top, maybe three times in the five minutes he was riding. The man got off and the demo was over. So what was really accomplished considering what I told you about Woody and this bucker? And, I think I've given you all the facts without being one sided and leaving something out.

But, I want you to understand Im NOT one sided....

I am/was a MR fan. I was extremely excited about seeing his demo at this expo. I've read his books and am a believer in his 'join-up' method. I am not out to crucify him by means of this post.

Sure, the demo is open to my interpretation, but thats exactly what Im sharing and Im being blunt but factual.

I take bits and pieces from each horseman I read about or see. I will keep his join up methods and use them, however, I wont be using his Dually or the advance and retreat methods he used that day :)

[lucycaspar]

Hi there, I'm new to this forum but have really enjoyed this thread! So thank you all!

Tootsie4u - you've talked about the manequin and the horse having things tied to his back. I'm not sure if you know but this is called flooding. Which basically entails not being able to escape a threatening or frightening stimuli. I was wondering whether or not you viewed join up to also fall into this category? To my mind it does, the horse doesn't want to be with you so you send it away BIG time. Yet it's in an enclosed that it can't escape from...doesn't it just run until it gives up and does what you want? How is that different from tying a manequin to it's back? Or perhaps I'm missing some of the finer points of join up? Help!!!:confused: :confused: :confused:

[chev]

Sorry Tootsie, I didn't mean that you weren't being objective - I just meant that so much of what's seen in the demos is open to interpretation that someone else watching may have seen it in a different light. I didn't mean it was a more accurate light than the one you saw it through!

I've never been a fan of pressure halters at all. I've never used them. Never found I needed too. It still comes down to coercing a horse into something, as far as I can see.

[Esther.D]

Firstly why so squeamish about pressure? A parelli halter for example is made of much thinner rope and acts all over the head

I am NOT intending to turn this into a competition between names in case anyone takes it that way :rolleyes:

However I just thought I had to correct this point. Yann I totally agree that the Parelli halter is thinner and therefore concentrates more pressure on a smaller area...HOWEVER..it is never used to apply pressure like the Dually is. Parelli should always involve a loose rope with the weight of the heavy rope and clip and the thin halter allowing for more sensitive communication, it should never involve any sharp pressure, or in fact any pressure at all, being applied to the halter. The seven games are all about teaching a horse to yeild to pressure so there is no NEED to apply significant levels of pressure to the halter.

Before I get shot down - I own both a Dually halter and a Parelli halter and was a MR convert before I moved on to Parelli. I found the Dually effective for short term training - Rupert had learnt to barge and trample you and also to spin, the Dually helped with this initially and was a useful piece of kit for teaching him that I still had control even on the other end of a long line. However I no longer use it, as I feel that it is the equivalent of a check collar on a dog - not in the classification of a 'cruel' piece of kit but something that works through making a particular activity uncomfortable for the animal. Now this is the basis for many training methods, including some aspects of Parelli, but I am worried by the frequency MR now seems to be using them, and also by the opportunity (in BOTH methods) for abuse to be perpetrated (NOT by Monty Roberts or Parelli etc but by either ignorant or plain violent 'students') in the name of the method.

I am sorry that Woody and you had a bad experience :(

[chev]

Thought I should also add that I thought, originally, that the idea of a Dually halter was as a remedial training aid - as put to good use with Esther and Rupert with regard to his barging, for example. I could be horribly wrong and stand to be corrected. If, however, I'm right in thinking that, then that's one thing that would bother me about the Dually - the fact that it seems now to be marketed as a must-have item, regardless of whether a horse really needs remedial training or not.

Have to also echo what Esther says about the different uses too - the Dually (again, from what I've seen and read of it, not personal experience) is basically a pressure tool, whereas the Parelli is a little like the double bridle of halters.... designed to allow more precise communication with the horse, rather than relying on the use of pressure. One thing I do remember about the Dually when it first came out was that one of it's selling points was the fact that it put pressure directly on the sensitive nerve bunches on a horse's head. So what happens when that kind of control and pressure isn't really warranted? I just don't think it's really the kind of everyday halter I'd want to be using in general training.

[Tootsie4U]

Bingo bingo bingo Chev and Esther! :)

Back to luckycasper - funny you mention it. This demo has had a huge affect on me and I sat thinking the other day about join up and round pen reasoning (John Lyons' term for it). While doing join up, the horse doesnt want to be with us, yet we restrain it by keeping it within a 60 foot circle.

But like I said above, alot training has an awful lot to do with pressures and releases of pressures. At least with round penning there is no physical pressures as there is with the pressures on the sensitive nose with the Dually.

[Sophini]

Good point, which i am happy to say i disproved. I not work by one particular method of horsemanship vs. another, i compete my horses so do ask for hard work and results reasonably quickly but i also appreciate that if they trust me and if everything is done quietly and painless, working on a reward system, we're going to get further.

Saying that, the first bit of the trust is to join up with my horses, not easy when there is no round pen and the arena has a very low fence all round it.

Simple solution - all my horses have to join up with me in the field. This has worked for 11 horses so far, the smallest field was only an acre, the largest 8 acres. It takes patience and a lot more energy on my part, but it worked and i know no pressure was involved.

:D

[blumke99]

Echo Tootsie. As you said before, "I take bits and pieces from each horseman I read about or see" which is exactly as it should be. No method should be bigger than the constant evolution of methods.

Join-up and the halter both use the horse's discomfort to our will. The natural herd uses comfort/discomfort for its collective good. Its all better than a good kick in the belly and whips across the back!

Sadly, there are fanatics on other boards who say no discomfort of any form should ever be applied, and they tar and feather Monty as a curel barbarian! I know he mentions the halter about 3 times every sentence, and gives it more than a gentle tug, but the anti-Monty fanatics are more dangerous if you ask me!

I don't stand for Monty and his methods, just a fair balance and credit to the man for allowing us to take away what we do like, as Tootsie has.

Oh, and I'm not saying you guys are anti-Monty lunatics, honest.... but they do exist!

[shirley]

Horses in their natural state are not the nicest of animals towards each other either, they react in appearingly violent abrupt, explosive manners at times to warn off the other horse or get their message across in the only way they know how to send it so the other one receives it loud and clear. Perhaps just a gentle tug on a dually halter does not impress a 1/2 ton horse standing in front of you, perhaps you need a little more than that to get the message across!

[KarinUS]

Actually:
Yes when we watch horses interact with each other it's those violent erruptions that stick in our mind. However what we overlook is the fact that so much of their interaction is non physical. For every one physical interaction there are a hundret non physical interactions. Horses can and will communicate and establish order in non physical ways.
Natural Horse Magazine has a great article on it this month.

Also there are different areas of sensitivity. Skin and nerve over bone, versus areas with muscle and fat, etc.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by shirley
Horses in their natural state are not the nicest of animals towards each other either, they react in appearingly violent abrupt, explosive manners at times to warn off the other horse or get their message across in the only way they know how to send it

My Duchess is a very very bossy boss mare.

She will go for weeks without physically chastising one of the others. The merest flick of her ear, the angle at which she's holding her head, is enough to tell the others what she wants from them. She doesn't even have to threaten, just to indicate what she wants.

The last time we had an actual physical ruckus was shortly after we introduced a new horse. She was pushing the boundaries for a little while. Eventually everyone settled into their new places in the hierarchy, and the herd dynamics run smoothly without fuss. They don't *need* to get violent.

Going up to the levels of explosive violence means that something has gone wrong along the way. Doing so on a regular basis indicates that there is something SERIOUSLY wrong in the relationship. If I had to constantly threaten my horses, it would be because they weren't willing to obey me without those threats; that's not right. They should submit to me because they trust me and are willing to follow me--not because I'll hurt them if they don't submit.

[Yann]

Just a thought, I'm personally at all keen on the idea of seeing a dually used abruptly and with force, but when you think about it is it that far removed from level 4 in Parelli? Perhaps the same principal is at work.

As far as join up goes, having now seen it done at close quarters with several horses by the man himself I can't agree that it's emotionally violent or stressful, any more than sending a horse out on a circle when lunging is emotionally violent or stressful. At least the horse can follow its natural inclinations in join up rather than having them denied. As far as I could see it was purely a case of someone speaking 'horse' to establish who was in charge.

Horses can sometimes be rough and nasty with each other in our terms, but that is their language. Our challenge is to be able to use the principals of that language to establish understanding without having to resort to anything rough or violent.

[Esther.D]

I agree about Parelli phase 4 - HOWEVER Parelli states that phase 4 should only EVER be used as a last resort and when all other phases have been worked through, in the demos and info I have followed from MR he does not make this clear.

I don't want to diss MR, I think he has some good ideas and am not sniping at all his work and was trying to keep away from a direct comparision with Parelli as they both have their weaknesses and strengths, I just think his Dually is perhaps used more than Parelli phase 4 (or the equivalent with Michael Peace, Richard Maxwell etc etc). Parelli phase 4 will probably only be used once or twice in the horses whole training (and phase 4 for a sensitive horse may just be a flick of the rope towards them) whereas MR markets the Dually as a tool for everyone to use as normal and does not stress any escalating phases of pressure first, effectively the Dually goes from phase 1 to phase 4 in one go without an opportunity for the horse to respond before getting to phase 4.

[Yann]

Good point - and I can't say I was overly impressed with the 'Dually is the answer to everything' patter, or the fact that the accompanying 'how to use it' video is so expensive. I've done all my groundwork up to press in a headcollar, as did the RA who came to do Rio's trailer loading. The leadrope only went on the training ring for the actual loading and then not for long.

You do get more feel on the training ring compared with a headcollar, but this also holds true for a rope halter. As with a rope halter you do have more control, and more yes/no in circumstances when you need it, but that surely isn't all the time.

Interesting you should mention Richard Maxwell - I saw him a little while back and he didn't really emphasise levels of pressure either. His pressure halter certainly looks like it could be severe if misused, and the demo horses certainly gave it instant respect.

[Esther.D]

Just seen your response Yann - may have been wrong to mention Richard Maxwell as I have not seen a demo of his for ages and have just (since I posted that) heard some dubioius things about his pressure halter (which I didn't even realise he had). Sorry, got my facts wrong :o

[Yann]

Don't go apologising to me of all people;):D

What dubious things have you heard about his halter? It looked quite severe to me, but the man is a superb horseman and he certainly didn't misuse it. As with any tack it's how and why.

[Esther.D]

Nothing very specific, just mutterings on S-U about it - its severity that is - and about him generally - however you know what N-H is like, there is plenty of controversy about everyone :D

[Dizzy]

Ha ha at last the rose tinted glasses are slowly falling off!

[Yann]

Eh?

[Esther.D]

:confused: who are they falling off, Dizzy? Anyone in particular or just the world in general and what about? :confused:

[Tina J]

Having looked really closely at behaviour demos - both Parelli and MR - and read as much Rashid as I can, I definitely come down in favour of Mark Rashid. The high publicity demos have brought horse behaviour into people's minds, and are very good for total newcomers to horses, to get them thinking (as long as they carry on thinking and don't take everything as gospel). But none of them have any real "reward" element except to stop applying the "pressure" (called negative conditioning if you ever seriously study behaviour). I am a big fan of using clicker training but although its really big in the dog world, few people seem to use it with horses. But for gaining real trust from your horse "reward" is definitely better than "pressure". Incidentally, I cottoned onto clicker training at a Parelli course a couple of years ago. Initially at the course my horse's behaviour went backwards. OK so he was at a strange place, with strange horses, being asked to do new things, and then being stressed by being stabled afterwards, when he is usually out 24/7. He did become calmer as the course went on, and I was impressed that the trainer kept everyone calm, and the emphasis was on not fussing, which is helpful for newcomers to animal training. Then afterwards the woman who was the local organiser admitted when we were chatting that she gets best results combining Parelli (which is "pressure" training) with clicker (reward training). I tried it, and then with my pup when I got him, and it is fantastic.

I won't go back to Parelli, and have left the "Parelli Club" because the idiot endorses another American, Robert Miller. The latter is a vet who advocates "imprinting" at birth. (1) what he calls imprinting is not imprinting, it is habituation and (2) he advocates restraining a foal, squealing at it in imitiation of stallion squeal (yeah, like a horse can't tell the difference between human imitation and the real thing) kicking it a few times and then reassuring it. As if a stallion beats hell out of a foal for no reason, then reassures it after! According to Miller this is supposed to teach a foal from the start to respect humans. IMO all it does is teach a foal that humans are unpredictable and can't be trusted.

I think that Miller should be shot (in such a way that he dies slowly!) and to have someone with the following that Parelli has, endorsing him, makes my blood boil.

As for Monty Roberts, sorry guys, but I wouldn't send a horse of mine to him.

[Esther.D]

Thats interesting TinaJ as I was thinking clicker training would fit very well beside Parelli - I am currently clicker training my collie pup and it struck me how well it would go with Parelli.

I didn't realise Parelli endorsed imprinting :eek:

[Yann]

Just goes to show you're better off taking the bits you like and leaving those you don't, and that the man and the method don't always amount to the same thing...

I always use a clicker when doing groundwork, and I agree, it's loads more effective, and more enjoyable for my horse too.

[Mehitabel]

goodness, i didn't know that about parelli.

would completely agree with yann about taking bits and pieces and using what works for your horse, and not being dogmatic about a particular school of thought or practitioner.

[Esther.D]

ditto Es and Yann...I use a combination of approaches already, but am new to clicker training :) Much healthier than being a 'disciple' of a single method.

[chev]

Echo Es and Yann... I didn't know Parelli condoned imprinting either. :mad: I'm not a fan of Miller, especially his views on imprinting.

[Tina J]

How wonderful to find that there are other people who use clicker training with horses. And who mix and match and use common sense to get the best out of their horses. I'm often regarded as a bit eccentric locally. Not entirely traditional, but not following any of the trends either. :D Isn't it great when you come across like minded people?