Was I doing it right? Why am I better with no stirrups?

[Drummers mum]

If you saw my dark nights post you will know how good I was feeling a couple of weeks ago and how worried I was that it would all go down the drain...

...well it has!!:mad:

Yesterday I was sooo insecure in the saddle, I was all over the place, my right leg will never do what I want it to do and I'm constantly fiddling with my stirrups on the ball of my foot AND when Drummers trot got a bit fast my legs were like pedulums!!

When I rode today, I was reallly determined (new jod boots too!) so I did loads of work without stirrups (which I find quite hard in my treeless saddle) I concentrated on opening my hips and bringing my upper leg back and under me. I was doing great, until the stirrups came back!! Why can I ride better without stirrups? When I get them back, i feel like I'm tipping forwards if I try to keep my leg in the same position! Drummer is the measure of the whole thing as without stirrups he was really bending and dropping his nose nicely!!

HELP!!!!:(

[Showjumper]

If the position of the stirrups is the same on the Trekker as it is on the Fitform, I know the answer :D

On the Fitform, the stirrups are in the right place (ie when you sit in it, it automatically puts you into the ear, shoulder, hip, heel position without you fiddling with your legs). However, if you're used to treed saddles, you're probably fighting the stirrups and trying to put your legs further back than you need to, which would tip you forwards.

[PromiseMe]

Maybe it has somethign to do with yoru stirrup length (maybe too short for you to ride as effectively/well as you can wihtout stirrups)

A while back i would do soo fine witout stirrups but as soon as they came back, I jsut wouldn't do it so well and than my instructor figured that they were too short for me to perform nicely, so we just lenghtened it and it was fine.

Just a suggestion...

[Drummers mum]

Showjumper, you could be right they are quite far back but think I was sitting to much on my bum and sticking my legs forward?!? Maybe I have now gone to the other extreme. I think I have been trying to compensate for the wide feeling of the treeless. I can tell I've worked though, my inner thighs are killing me!!

PromiseMe, I am forever changing the length of my stirrups, its my trade mark, lol!:D maybe I will try a hole longer next time though.

Would some one confirm which bit of my derrier I am supposed to sit on? I thought it was my seat bones and pelvic arch bit but I seem to have got all confused. Galadriel!?!

[Tangle]

Not saying any of the previous ideas are wrong, but for a non-saddle related view.... ;)

I think it's fairly common to go through a phase of being able to ride better without stirrups than with. The explanation I remember was something like this:

When you're trotting without stirrups, your legs are (hopefully) relaxed allowing your feet to dangle around more or less as they will. When you add stirrups, you're fixing the distance between the saddle and the ball of your foot - but as you move in sitting trot you're continually stretching the hip joint and so increasing the amount of leg between those two fixed points. Put me on a bigger moving horse and I tend to brace against the stirrups - my leg and ankle gets stiff and I nearly bounce off :o:(. If I remember to keep my legs supple and let my ankles flex then a lot of that motion is absorbed through my leg and I'm a lot more stable :).

Can't help with the position - I tend to sit on my crotch with an over flexed back. To sit on my seat bones I feel like I'm about to fall over back wards and I can't get my legs anywhere near far enough back :( - horse goes much more nicely though ;)

[galadriel]

Among other things, I suspect that you're having to open your hips up a lot wider now, right? That's going to make you very tight through the hip until you develop a little more stretch. Tightness in the hip is going to translate all the way down the leg; any tightness in the leg makes the whole leg's movement more jerky. Jerky motions make your stirrups less secure or comfortable.

Without the stirrups, you may be able to be a bit more relaxed, since you're not groping for the stirrups nor trying to keep them. Since being jerky in the leg makes it hard to keep the stirrups, then you'll probably be working better without the stirrups 'till you get more accustomed to the wideness of your horse--now that you can feel it :) and it has a direct impact on your riding.

[Sometimes it's nice to have a narrow horse!]

You aren't supposed to be riding much on the pubic arch. I believe it was somewhere on NR that I saw this phrasing: ride like you're trying to sit on your back pockets.
With a less supportive cantle, it may be harder to work that, but you should still be rolled backward onto your seatbones.

Riding with your pelvis rolled back (a little, not excessively) allows you to straighten your spine better--that makes absorbing the movement in your back easier. It also allows you to open your shoulders more comfortably. More, it places most of your weight along the more fleshy areas in your seat and thighs, making you more stable in your seat and distributing your weight more effectively.

[Drummers mum]

Ow ow ow ow! Sore legs!:o lol! Really must do more of this.

Gal: You are most definately right about the width of the saddle! and whats really frustrating is that my left hip is more flexible than my right! I was always taught to sit more on my pelvic arch as when you sit on your back pockets your stomach muscles collapse or am I then sitting too far back?

Tangle, Thats interesting, cos I think to stop myself loosing my stirrups I brace a bit and then my legs shoot forwards! As for the position, thats how I feel, if I sit on my crotch more I get a nicer leg position.

Perhaps I need to book a lesson!:rolleyes: :o

[No_Angel]

As yet, I haven't had a day like this in my treeless. I have however had to change my stirrup length! I bought a pair of dressage leather and they were very long, put more holes in, still too long, then put more holes in, they felt too short and my ankles hurt so I lengthened them. I would say you are fighting ** leathers too, if you ride with very long stirrups ( so you could just get your toes in them) then ride like that for a bit then put them up one hole and ride around then put them up again (if you have to) until you feel good. This may help with the stirrup dilema.
Another good thing to try might be toestoppers if you are fighting to keep the stirrup in the right position on your foot.

P.S- hows the gel pad working under your saddle?
I may have another convert into the treeless world, I rode my friends horse in it and she was very impressed.

[Drummers mum]

The gel pad works well and I am waiting for a new one to come from ebay its a gelite pad and has a channel down the middle.

Drummer is very happy in his treeless but I have to put extra padding to stop the front pushing on his withers. I am working on a way to attach it to the pommel as the dartmoor treeless that belongs to the YO is attached at this point so gives really good wither clearance.

I have shuffled my stirrups around no end but now I just seem to have lost it completely! I need to work on my seat and position so badly! Its really frustrating! A couple of weeks ago I felt like I was doing really well!
:mad:

Hope you convert your friend! BTW hows your bitless venture going?

[No_Angel]

Im glad your gel pad works.

My bitless venture is fine, she had one rear but that was because there were youngsters and race horses cantering down their field and being mad, other than that she has been a gem.
I also rode my friends horse in a hackamore (he is usually ridden in a pelham and has trouble stopping) no problems, weight down in stirrups, half halt, stopped dead! Fantastic.

Hope you get ** stirrups sorted out soon, I had a few problems at first with my wiggly cob, he can't walk in a straight line to save his life, forever doing travers! lol!

[friedegund]

Here is something I found about proper seat, I too knew I was "supposed" to be sitting on my seatbones...but had NO idea where exactly they are .....I have a surplus of seat, mind you, they could be hiding just about anywhere back there ;)


Then I found this

http://www.worldzone.net/recreation/virtuallyhorses/seat.html

I finally was able to locate those elusive bones!

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Drummers mum
I was always taught to sit more on my pelvic arch as when you sit on your back pockets your stomach muscles collapse or am I then sitting too far back?

You shouldn't be putting weight in the pubic arch; that puts you definitely too far forward.

You should have a slight curve in your lower back; that curve should start at the seatbones, go up & forward toward the abdomen, then curve up & back toward the shoulderblades. If you don't have this curve, then yes, you're sitting too far back--bear in mind that it should only be a slight curve, though. Like I said--without a sloping cantle you may not be able to really sit "on your pockets." You should, however, be rotated back off your pubic arch in order to take your weight on your seatbones & on your seat/thigh muscles.

Getting an instructor out sounds like a very good idea :) S/he could help you to determine what it feels like when you *are* sitting properly; you could then use that information as you ride.

[Drummers mum]

Friedegund: Great artical, I think light has dawned on a few things! Thanks!

Galadriel: After reading that I don't think I was so far forward as to sit on my pubic arch (my anatomy is terrible, lol!) but I'm not tucking my bum under me enough! The problem is finding a "good" instructor round here who will come out to you. The YO is an instructor but ...you know...:o I think alot of my problems stem from the lack of twist on my saddle and its taken a long time to get used to plus with the dark nights I can only ride weekends and I seem to fall apart in between, :(

My friends say I worry to much and that I'm fine but..........

[laura jeanne]

If you start out with stirrups and then do work with no stirrups, they will feel too short when you take them back because your legs have relaxed and lengthened. This is what my experience is. So then you need to adjust them again.

Just having your stirrups off by a little can make you feel like everything is wrong. I don't usually feel like mine are even but it's probably because the leathers have stretched on one side but I can't do anything about it bec it's a school horse and tack.

[galadriel]

There are a number of things that you can do between rides to make sure that your riding isn't lost. One of the best is just to keep an eye on your posture throughout the day. If you just check yourself every hour or so, and make sure that you're sitting up straight, you're not hunching, you've got your shoulders back, you'll develop the proper support in your torso/abdomen for the proper riding position.

The more you can do to make riding feel natural, the more easily it will come to you. If you make it second nature to sit properly no matter what you're doing (driving a car, sitting on a subway, sitting at a computer, etc), then it will be second nature to sit properly on the horse, too.

[Willingbe]

Take a look at this article which may help explain some of the mechanics, focussing on sitting trot but explains stirrup lengths

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/Sitting_Trot_Woes/sitting_trot_woes.html