Hoof Trimming - what's too short?

[Tangle]

We recently had a horse come back onto the yard. He has notoriously bad feet - prone to low heels, they crack and they tend to flare out and become HUGE.

I last saw him mid-September with shoes on. He came back a week ago barefoot. Anyone got any opinions on his trimming - this is his near front.

[intouch]

If that was mine I'd be taking it down a bit more - the lateral quarter looks a bit odd, and the bars need tidied up but I wouldn't consider it too short.

[galadriel]

Agree about the lateral (outside) quarter--but he is clearly walking on the sole of his toe. The wall should be a little longer to support that sole. The sole should be slightly dished, with the wall just a touch longer than the sole all the way around.

When the horse sets his foot down, it should first contact with the wall. The sole will then flex (downwards) as the horse takes his weight on the leg. Then as he lifts the foot, the sole will flex back upwards, then he'll take the weight off the wall, then he'll lift the leg itself. If the sole is longer than the wall, he will be walking directly on the sole, instead of having the sole supported by the wall. That makes for tender, even sore, feet.

[virtuallyhorses]

It would be nice to see the hoof from the outside as well as its rather hard to see what's going on with the heels from this. It's also important to recognise that if the horse is only recently barefoot it will most definitely be a 'work in progress'.

With regards to the toe callus, this is something that is 'desirable' to me (and many others). It is a common feature of barefoot trims where the sole is no longer trimmed out (left natural instead) and the toe is kept short (particularly where the toe is dumped or squared off). The toe callus does indeed become a weight bearing structure - the sole being allowed to grow thicker doesn't result in tender feet, instead the entire structure acts like a 'rocker' shoe (or cytek\ NH if you are more familiar with those) with a fast breakover and very little pressure being applied to the toe wall.

If this is a horse which has had problems with 'low heels' (which usually means long toes) and in this case I suspect actually means run under heels then the first trims will generally try to push the centre of the foot back. You often need several trims to get to where you want. During this transition period you may have to compromise in some areas as you can't just force a foot into a shape and often you have to deal with several issues at once. I suspect that at the next trim the heels (and bars) will be trimmed back (cut) further in order to get the horn growing correctly.

[Tangle]

Thanks for the replies - think I understand but please bear in mind I'm a bit of a foot novice :o!

Have I got it right, that the bars are at the back of the foot - the sort of lateral extension to the frog?

Galadriel brought up the point that was concerning me - this horse is so tender he's currently on box rest on rubber matting. We couldn't use a hoof pick on him - we had to wash his feet out. If you try and walk him over rough ground he's extremely uncomfortable :(.

Viv - by "toe callus" do you mean when the front of the sole becomes much more level, with a definate break into the concave part around the frog?

I understand what you mean by work in progress and the foot changing shape - our Fifi has just had her third set of natural balance shoes with raised heels, the aim being to stop her striking toe first. He was very excited that her hooves have got broader at the front now - and that's taken 3 months for about a 1/4" total change. You're also probably right that it was long toes rather than low heels.

I don't believe in slapping shoes on every horse regardless, and if they deal with it I can't see a problem with barefoot. Just worried me a bit that he seemed to have had a change in trimming that he was sooooo sore. There's a farrier coming to the yard on Thursday - YO's going to get him to take a look and see what he thinks.

Oh - and here's a pic of him standing. Probably not ideal - never tried this kind of photography before. I've got one from the front as well, if that would help.

[Bebe]

How long has he been barefoot? If it's not long then a lot of what you're seeing might be as a result of being shod, certainly the flat look of the sole is indicative of that and also the dubbed toe. Bebe's toes looked like this when she was shod, my farrier was rasping the toe right back to the white line so when her shoes came off she had no hoof wall at the toe area. Thankfully she wasn't sore but I fully expected her to be when I saw just how far back the farrier had pulled her toes. He'd done this to address the long toe issue but she didn't actually have long toes, her whole hoof was too far forward due to underrun heels which gave the impression of long toes.

I can't tell much from the sole picture, it's the wrong angle for me to be able to see much. The side-on pic does show underrun heels though.

I've had another look at the sole pic, the bars (you're right about where they are) appear to be folded over. If they haven't been trimmed this might account for some of the soreness. Heels are definitely underrun so would need to be rasped back as short as possible for however many trims it takes to allow them to grow back in straight (Bebe is on trim 3 with a KC Equine Podiatrist and we're just starting to see definite improvement in her heels). The whole hoof appears to be tinged pink/red to me - bruising?

[Wally]

What nighmare feet....either to shoe or not to.

Cannot add much more as it's alreday ben said.

What makes me a bit cross is that is it probably bad shoeing in the first place which has caused the heels to collapse and run under......maybe not being fair here as I don't know the horse or farriers, but ...........
maybe he just has feet which are a bad shape anyway and prone to this.

Whatever you decide, best of luck with him.

[Tangle]

Wally - he has got nightmare feet. I think he's just naturally built that way, sadly. I know a farrier recognised his feet after probably 3 or 4 years - during which time they had not improved. He's had at least 4 farriers in his life - not too sure what conclusions can be drawn on that. He's just bee re-purchased by YO so not my problem. However, I do know that the farrier she's hoping will take him on has an extremely good reputation (but is therefore extremely busy). Finger's crossed for him :).

Bebe - I don't know how long he's been barefoot. Seeing his soles and how tender his feet were I was assuming it was very recent. However, below is a pic of the same foot from the front and the last set of nail holes has almost grown out. He was due for the farrier when he left the yard in mid-September - I'm guessing he went bare then, but was maybe trimmed very recently. You can also see the nice cracks he gets :rolleyes: We think the change in horn quality half-way up corresponds to when he first came to our yard in July.

What angle should I have taken the picture at? I did one looking straight at the sole and one at an angle, thinking that would show the lack of hoof wall. Would be good to know what the best angle is for on-line analysis in case of future problems :).

[Tangle]

And here's a happier one of him having fun :D.

btw - that's the OH who I managed to decapitate :o.

[Bebe]

best angles for hoof shots are straight on, as close to ground level as you can get and looking straight down at the sole (you have to hold the hoof with one hand & camera with other for that unless you have a helper).

There seems to be a ton of flare on that last pic you've posted, this would explain the cracks and if that's stretched the white line would also account for some soreness and possibly bruising (flare tears the hoof wall away from the sensitive laminae). First thing I would address is the flare, then the underrun heels. Both can be put on the road to recovery with judicious use of a hoof rasp. Obviously the overall balance has to be sorted out but I can't see that from the pics. This is just my opinion btw, I'm not an expert just an owner who has been through hoof nightmares and as a result have tried to educate myself as best I can.

Is he being trimmed by a barefoot specialist of some sore or a traditional farrier? The hoof looks to me to have been trimmed as you would in preparation for a shoe being applied rather than for being left bare.

PS, I don't like the look of his frogs either, they just don't look particularly healthy to me but that might just be the pics.

[Tangle]

Thanks for that Bebe - makes sense. Especially re. the flare and cracks :).

As he's only just arrived back on the yard we're not too sure who his last farrier was, what he was trying to achieve or what timescale he was trying to achieve it on. I know his previous owner has previously kept him barefoot, but I don't know if she was heading back that way.

Hopefully he'll be looked at by a farrier on Thursday. My understanding is that this farrier uses natural balance shoeing and (I think) the EDDS system. If you're interested I'll let you know what he suggests (when I find out).

Thanks for the info on taking good hoof pics. I did actually take some square to the sole - the fact I didn't post them shoes my naievity with foot problems :rolleyes:. Again, if you'd like to see it let me know and I'll stick it up - otherwise I'll save server space ;).

[Bebe]

I hope the new farrier can sort him out. With my last farrier I felt he was either scared of doing anything to unshod hooves or just wasn't bothered, not sure which but he used to just glance at them every 6/8 weeks and more often than not say nothing needed to be done. I can sort of see why he'd say that as my mare does wear her hooves lengthwise as quickly as she grows them so there's not much to take off in the traditional sense. However, as she wasn't wearing them in perfect balance this needed to be addressed and wasn't which led to flares which led to cracking. It's fairly simple to address but it does take time to grow out fully as you have to wait for the new hoof to grow down.

Good luck with getting him sorted
Amanda

[Wally]

Hmmmm!

My thought precisely about the flare, also the ground surface does not look to me to be well balanced. I know he will have worn the breakover down but.......I'd want to get rid of some of that flare. Again I'm not an expert, but in my experience leaving that amount will, and seems to have lead to cracking.

[Bebe]

Incidentally, the cracks on this horse are in exactly the same places as the cracks on Bebe's hooves - which were caused by flare. Now the flare is being addressed the cracks are growing out.