Barehoofed!!! - Any advice?

[annamica]

I have just taken the decision to remove all my horses shoes. I decided to do this because he seems to be throwing a shoe every 2 weeks, but as luck would have it he hasn't damaged his hooves in the process and because I thought why does he really need to be shod??

We don't do any hacking so he has no road work to do and the only hard ground he comes across is the bit of concrete between his stable and the field and the sand school.

The farrier looked at his feet today and said that he was happy to remove the shoes but will keep and eye on how they are doing.

Does anyone have any advice on keeping a horse without shoes? the benefits and pitfalls? and what, if anything, I should look out for or do?

I have also decided to use Keratex hoof hardener on his hooves has anyone used this or can anyone else recommend some other way of hardening his hooves. The farrier also agreed with using Keratex but I would welcome peoples suggestions!

Thanks Anna

[jUmPingIsLifE]

if a horse can go barefoot, why not? its cheaper! The only reason autumng gets shoes is because of the crazy trails we go on! if our trail riding wasnt so adventurous i wouldn't need them. my old pony never needed shoes at all. tahoe however is such a baby! if i dont have shoes on him he limps around like he has absesses in every foot ready to expload,poor boy!

if you find her feet are very soft and you want shoes back on, you could try bell boots, tahoe will pull a shoe off withen 30minutes if i turn him out without bellboots! i can count how many times he has pulled shoes, it was so annoying having the farrier out every week (no exaggeration) and we finally got bell boots and he has never pulled a shoe with the bell boots on.

[Shizzity]

my trainer doesnt put shoes on any of her horses, and they seem to be fine. They have even all gone jumping cross counrty without shoes. Doesnt really seem to me like she does anything specail. Im not reall sure though....

[janet hakeney]

Read and digest the contents of This Website (http://www.barefoothorse.com/) and you will know you are doing the right thing

[abi_pring]

My mare doesn't have shoes on because she never has and the farrier said her feet were hard enough to cope. We do mainly road work in winter and her feet are fine. Obviously keep an eye out for soreness or cracks etc. I use keratex on her, its harder to do in winter as you need 2 apply it to clean hooves! But its good stuff, and not overly expensive. Definatly recommend it.

If you're protective and concerned, use a "feet" feed, Happy Hoof by Spillers is good, as is Farriers Formula but that one is a supplement and expensive! But don't worry to much like I did, after all horses are on all sorts of surfaces up on the hills and they survive with no shoes!

[annamica]

Thank you all :)

I am sure that this is the right thing to do for Alby and I am trying to progress to a more natural approach with him. In fact this is the first year that I have not given him a full clip. He will get a clip but only a high trace clip so that he doesn't get too hot when worked (as he can sweat up quite a bit!!).

Thanks Janet for that website - I have added it as one of my favourites now as it was so informative.

And abi_pring thanks for letting me know that Keratex is the way to go!

Anymore advice and experiences greatly received!!

:D

[Bebe]

You might find these websites interesting also:

www.ironfreehoof.com
www.equinepodiatry.net

My mare is unshod, she hasn't worn hind shoes for 18 months and her front shoes came off at the beginning of September. For the last 3 months she has been trimmed by a KC La Pierre Equine Podiatrist and couldn't be happier with how her hooves are shaping up. I've had problems with farriers in the past resulting in her being lame for most of the spring and summer of 2003. I decided to educate myself a bit more about hooves and this led me to KC La Pierre and his high performance trim. So far it's working very well for Bebe. I was told by 2 farriers and my vet that she had poor hooves and would only be truly sound in hoof pads (this was in 2003 when she was lame). She's now 100% sound on every surface I've thrown at her, without any shoes at all.

Edited to say I used Keratex Hoof Hardener just prior to her shoes coming off in preparation for the change and also for a few weeks afterwards. It has helped and lots of people with barefoot horses have used it with success. If your grazing/turnout has a tendency towards being waterlogged or muddy (where isn't at this time of year?!) you might find Keratex Hoof Gel usefull. My mare had problems with her hooves getting too soft from being in wet conditions all the time last winter (she was unshod from Oct last year to March of this year) so I was recommended the hoof gel to help prevent this.

[hackedoff]

Archer is unshod, has been for 4 months I noticed how much better his feet are now he is off shavings, dont feed any supplements apart from linseed oil and he has alfa and no hard feed.

[Gill]

Go for it. Hooves can only get better when the shoes come off, providing of course that you take things gradually.

My girls have had over a year of barehooves now and do fine. We have lots of smooth roadwork which is good for feet and far less concussion than when metal shod.

If you need support then keep posting as there will always be people who try to undermine your viewpoint. There is loads of evidence to back you up on your choice though and the best evidence will be your horses soundness in the future.

[Yann]

Just a related question really, as Hackedoff indicates there is a tendency for some barefoot horses to be kept in a more 'natural' way ie. out 24/7 in a herd, unclipped, no hard feed etc. Whilst I can fully understand the philosophy behind this, are there any practical benefits as far as the barefoot aspect goes, as against a barefoot horse kept in a more traditional manner?

[Esther.D]

Well mine are kept out in a herd 24/7 etc etc on a large acreage on the moors and barefoot - I think they may thrive better barefoot like that than kept 'traditionally' as the moorland is rough and stoney and hardens their hooves up and in a 60 acre and very steep and hilly field they do a lot of mileage daily, just moving between the patches of grass (a lot of the field is heather) which helps their hooves too. This lifestyle has also enabled our laminitics to keep clear of laminitis without restricted grazing for two years now! :)

[jessie123]

I tried my boy barehoofed at one point but he is such a ponse he ended up lame, but bear in mind where I'm from it is incredibly stoney and flinty so I can't blame him really:D

[Bebe]

There are some schools of thought that believe the hoof is the foundation of everything within the horse and if they're not healthy, the rest of the horse won't be. There's also the theory that the hoof acts as a circulatory pump which is where 24/7 turnout = constant movement, plays a part. I think a forage based diet is based on laminitis risk (a lot of the research comes from the USA where horses seem to be fed much more cereals & have less access to grazing).

The don't clip, don't rug, etc is essentially a Strasserism. It's not essential to follow this if you don't want to, though for some people barefoot is a natural progression of keeping their horses as naturally as possible.

From discussion with other horse owners of barefoot horses it seems that 24/7 turnout on grass isn't always ideal here in the UK where mud often prevails. Constant exposure to wet ground and mud can soften the hooves and make horses footsore so people are having more success through bringing horses in overnight or utilising areas of hard standing as turnout pens for some of the day to get them on dry ground and let the hooves return to their natural moisture balance. This makes sense after seeing how Bebe was last March after a wet spell.

[Esther.D]

just to agree with Bebe here, ours are out 24/7 but it is very well drained moorland with stoney tracks, rather than soft, muddy pastureland.

[Gill]

Mine are also out unrugged, though they have a field shelter if they choose.
I think in relation to being barefoot you can expect better circulation in an outdoor horse and apparently warmer legs and feet than if rugged and stabled.

[laura jeanne]

Have a look at this website too.

http://www.horseridingfun.com/barefootin.html

[magicmax]

my nf gelding has never had shoes and we do road work and all and he seems fine. although sometimes on hacks he will try to hobble along a thin piece of grass if the track is all lumpy and stoney!!!!!

[Holly B]

Both my ponies are kept unshod, though I am considering getting some Old Macs (http://www.oldmacs.com/default.htm) for one of them because she has difficulty on very stony ground. I tend to stick to grass or softer ground where possible and keep road trotting to a minimum (it's bad for the legs anyway!) I think keeping a horse barefoot is kinder (and cheaper... think how much money you can save only getting your horse trimmed every few months!!!) Happy hacking! :)

[Pink's lady]

My horse in barefooted and i do absolutly nought to her feet but i've been really lucky - she's got really hard feet and excellent hoof confirmation.

I was looking into barefeet recently and saw a web page showing a thermograph of shod and unshod legs (on same horse). THe unshod leg was red/yellow with warmth and blood. The shod was black/blue with almost no blood supply. The hoof, unshod, acts as secondary hearts, pumping blood around the body. An shod foot can't do this so well.


It's interesting that everyone belives in Ketetex Hoof hardener.

My lecturer at uni (vet school) specialises in horse hooves (and teeth) and has worked a great deal with Robert Eustace of the Laminitic Society.

She would probably shoot on sight anyone going anywhere near their horses hooves with a brush containing anything other than water!

She done a lot of research into Keratex and apparently it's really bad for their feet.

Whilst it does harden their feet, it's only because it's mostly formalin and is basically pickling the hooves! it also makes it much more prone to cracking.

The same applies to hoof oil. It's the worst thing you can put on their feet. When they experimented and left bits of hoof cuttings in hoof oil, they basically dissolved! It also stops water penertation and stops the hoof from breathing - bit like putting your own feet in plastic bags for any length of time.


The only thing you should put on there feet ( according to my lecturer) is paint them with water if they are too dry and not worry if they get damp. Didn't mention what you should do if they are continously wet and they get thrush. Whilst obviously knowledgeable, she can be a bit over-bearing!

The other thing she's done research on is feed supplements and apparently Farriers Formula is fantastic stuff (and she feeds it to all her horses). Some other supplements are ok, most are useless and Farriers Formula outstrips them all.

Interesting facts that are apparently true!

[Yann]

Originally posted by Pink's lady
I was looking into barefeet recently and saw a web page showing a thermograph of shod and unshod legs (on same horse). THe unshod leg was red/yellow with warmth and blood. The shod was black/blue with almost no blood supply. The hoof, unshod, acts as secondary hearts, pumping blood around the body. An shod foot can't do this so well.


Interesting points. I wonder if the differences with the thermograph were to do with the metal shoe conducting heat out of the foot on a concrete surface? Do you have a URL for the web page by any chance? I do have to question the suggestion that a shod leg has little or no blood supply though, or shod horses would be going down like flies with gangrene and circulatory problems, which in general they don't.
I'm also a little dubious about this secondary heart business, whilst I can see that an unshod hoof might have better circulation I've never heard of any animal's foot having a circulatory function. It would surely have to have a lot more 'give' in it? Is there any scientific evidence to back this up?

[Pink's lady]

hi

Yann - I've had a quick look trying to find the site again with the picture of thermograph but I couldn't find it. I think it was a scientific paper attatched to one of the 'Barefoot' type web sites. I will have a look again later.

From the pictures, it showed heat loss, which was used as an indication of blood flow. In the shod foot, there would still have to be blood flow, however it obviouly wasn't as good. That was the basic point of the pictures, but I didn't read it thourghly enough to decided on it's validity of the results. If I can find it again, I'd like to have a proper read.

Presumably, it the blood flow and heat loss from unshod legs is greater, then they would loss heet more quickly(?)


RE ciculatory function of the hoof. THe hoof plays a great role in circulation of blood around the horses body. In the vet school they often talk of the horse as having 5 hearts - one in it's chest and one at the end of each leg.

As pressure is put onto the hoof the concave sole flattens and becomes convex and the hoof expands. This pulls blood down into the feet and legs. As the pressure is removed (they lift the leg) the hoof springs back into shape- pumping the blood back up the leg.

This pumping is absolutly essential in returning blood back to the heart - the extra thick, non-elastic skin of the legs prevents the legs from filling with blood, but the venous pressure(the pull of blood back to the heart) alone is not strong enough to push the blood back out of them . Thats what the feet are need for. if the feet were totally unable to expand and the soles unable to flatten (for example- they were in a concrete block), there would be basically no blood supply to the legs.

The shod hoof can still do this but only to a certain extent, as the expantion of the hoof is greatly hindered.

It would be really interesting to find out if horses that are unshod their entire life have less problems with arthritis. It has been shown that leg injuries heal much quicker in unshod horses.

I'm going to have a look again for the web site. I think it'll be quite interesting to read. I will post it up if I can find it.

[annamica]

Can I just say a big thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread.

You all have so much experience and knowledge to pass on to everyone - its great!!! I have learnt a lot in the last 24 hours from what people have said about their own experiences and from web sites that have been suggested.

Your all a great bunch and I hope we can all continue to help each other in this way!! :D

[Bebe]

Pinks Lady, whilst I agree in principle with Keratex Hoof Hardener not being fantastic for hooves I do think short term use is beneficial, particularly for soft soled or flat footed horses who otherwise would be too sore to be barefoot. I used it initially but no longer need it.

I also agree in theory about only putting water on the hooves but that's only really applicable to horses kept in dry conditions. Horses kept in constantly wet conditions have a whole different set of problems. There's an interesting discussion on a barefoot email group I'm a member of at the moment about this very fact. The theory of most people is that waterlogged conditions overload the hoof which prevents the natural homeostasis process which would ordinarily balance the moisture levels of the hoof from taking place efficiently. This makes sense to me.

[Yann]

Presumably, it the blood flow and heat loss from unshod legs is greater, then they would loss heet more quickly(?)

If there is greater blood flow, making the leg warmer, then heat will be lost at a greater rate, showing up on the thermograph. If there is less circulation, or equal circulation but heat loss conducted away via the shoe on a poorly insulating surface, then this *might* account for the difference. In order for the comparisons between the two photos to be valid though all the other circumstances ie. ambient temperature, recent exercise level, fitness, coat length etc. would all have to be the same.

This pumping is absolutly essential in returning blood back to the heart - the extra thick, non-elastic skin of the legs prevents the legs from filling with blood, but the venous pressure(the pull of blood back to the heart) alone is not strong enough to push the blood back out of them .

As I said I can accept there will be a difference between the action of a shod and unshod foot, however what you appear to be suggesting is that without constant movement a horse's circulation in its legs will rapidly fail. Horses, especially stabled ones, often spend long periods immobile without any obvious detrimental effect on their health.

I can also accept that the shoe will restrict the ability of the foot to expand, however there will still be a pumping action on the frog and sole unless working on a smooth hard surface. Has any research been done on just how much expansion and deflection actually takes place in an unshod foot?

[Bebe]

Has any research been done on just how much expansion and deflection actually takes place in an unshod foot?

Yes, it's mm's but significant. Some research argues that because it occurs in the back 1/3 of the hoof it won't be impeded by a shoe because the nails aren't in this section of the hoof but others argue that by nature of nailing a rigid structure to the hoof you've impeded this function. I'm on the fence personally.

I don't think the frog will act as nature intended on a shod hoof though. Most farriers trim the frog to be slightly lower than the sole, then you stick a shoe on which gives further clearance. The only time you're going to get proper frog & sole contact is on a soft surface that the hoof can sink into a little. Perfectly flat, hard or uneven ground won't give full function because you won't get even sole & frog contact.

[Yann]

The only time you're going to get proper frog & sole contact is on a soft surface that the hoof can sink into a little.

That's what I said;):D

[Gill]

Interesting what has been said about thermography. My farrier has a thermographic camera and we have used it to compare shod and unshod hooves and legs. The difference is quite phenomenal with much better circulation in the unshod horses. Many shod horses are actually slightly lame, which becomes more apparent as they get older and their feet develop problems.

He is always concerned about so many horses working lives being over when they are in their teens, through lameness, navicular etc. Most should still be sound and in their prime at that time.

[OlavS]

Gill, any chance that you can share some thermographic images with us? :D
I really want to see this, although I am sure that the blood supply does increase when metal shoes are removed.

However, if it's such a good idea to remove metal shoes and so many people worry about sore footedness, how come rubber/synthetic shoes aren't more polular? :confused:

[Yann]

If you mean hoof boots it's possibly because they aren't a completely satisfactory solution, they can be tricky to fit, may cause rubs, and may be prone to coming off in heavy ground or at high speeds.

I'm not sure we can blame shoes for all horses that break down prematurely, although it's no doubt a factor in some cases, or poor farriery more to the point. Plenty of shod horses work well into their 20's without any problem, and lameness can have many other causes. Being barefoot can bring its own problems too as far as I can see, and making and maintaining the transition to barefoot needs a lot of time, work and favourable conditions. Even then there's no guarantee that the particular horse will be able to cope in every situation as well as a shod horse could.

I'm not against the idea at all, for instance my daughter's share pony was barefoot when we took her on but just couldn't cope with any level of work, though there were possibly other factors in her case. I would have been quite happy to keep her that way, but it was kinder to her to put fronts on.

[Gill]

Absolutely right Yann, I agree with all you said.
Obviously chatting with the farrier only brings up problems directly related to shoeing/hoof issues.

Sorry I have no images recorded which could be shared, but if you get the chance to look at one of these cameras do take it. It is very interesting.

[OlavS]

No, Yann, I mean rubber shoes instead of metal shoes. You nail or glue them on depending on the type.

http://www.designinsite.dk/gifs/k0050.jpg
http://www.horseshoes.com/supplies/alphabet/equiflex/images/smallshoecloseup.jpg
There are several others, but I can't find them right now :o

[Pink's lady]

Yeay, I've finally found the picture

Guess which foot has the metal shoe on it.

I confused myself a bit when I said about presumable heat loss and didn't put it across proparly. What I meant was in terms of poor-doers (as apposed to good-doers!) who have problems keeping weight on and keeping warm i.e Does have having an unshod TB(for example) mean they get colder?

OlvaS

I've often wondered about this with rubber shoes etc, but i think the answer is that the shoes are expensive, fiddly to put on and easily fall off and they don't wear well at at.

Yann - I totally agree that no shoes is not an option for many horses - I excersise a TBxCleavland Bay who couldn't manage at all without shoes - her soles bruise far too easily and she just
hobbles everywhere.

However, there are a lot of horse I know that are unnessasarily shod.

RE boots - I also agree that they aren't a totally satificatory answer to shoeing. They also don't come big enough! ( Pink has 19cm feet, which is 6 sizes too big!)

without constant movement a horse's circulation in its legs will rapidly fail

In fact, this is almost true. The horse does not need to walk around - all that need to happen is the pressure to be lifted and reapplied to the hoof. The hoof doesn't even need to leave the ground. A stabled horse acheives this by shuffling their feet. No horse will stand absolutly still for any lenght of time (they only sleep for max of 1-2hrs standing up(unless they can't lie down for some reason) It used to be traditional to bandage horses legs when stabled, to prevent them swelling, (odeama (fluid in the tissues due to the increased pressure) due to the standing around for hours.

Obviously, the pumping of the hooves is not the be-all and end-all of circulation - the heart can do a suffiecient job for survival.

With shoes on, the hoof still pumps blood as the sole still becomes convex. However, the efficency is greatly reduced because the wall can't expand as well.

[hackedoff]

Heard something fascinating the other day- modern shoeing is down to metal and farrier shortages in the war! Cheaper, thinner shoes were produced that needed less skill to put on and less steel to produce. This cost-saving measure was never reversed and quickly spread (of course) proper traditional shoeing was much more like Cytex'ing apparently..........can any farriers/brainboxes confirm this?

[OlavS]

Originally posted by Pink's lady
I've often wondered about this with rubber shoes etc, but i think the answer is that the shoes are expensive, fiddly to put on and easily fall off and they don't wear well at at.
I think they are more expensive, but new polyurethane stuff can be amazingly grippy yet wear well. As with any "different" shoe they will require some getting used to before the farrier is up to speed, but at least he won't have to heat it up, bang it with a hammer a number of times before it fits. Some shoes are simply nailed on and then trimmed with a knife/file to the shape of the hoof.

As for falling off I definately think they should be better than metal, as the rubber is flexible and won't be pryed off from the edge the way a rigid metal shoe can. You can even fit studs to some synthetic shoes, for competitions on grass or avoid sliding in the snow. This probably doesn't give the same amount of grip as a studded metal shoe, but then that grip level is enough to damage the horse anyway.

Maybe I've just fallen like a sucker for the sales talk, but I can't help but think that this can be the best compromise between barefoot and metal shoes. Some people compare barefoot and metal horseshoes to barefoot and trainers for humans. I'd say that metal shoes should be compared to wooden shoes in human terms, as there is no feel or shock absorption. Synthetic shoes compare much better to our trainers (which is what most humans prefer). Right, I'll shut up now :o

[Bebe]

There's been some research that has shown rubber shoes to offer to much grip to the hoof on surfaces such as roads & concrete yards. The unshod hoof is designed to have a bit of slippage when it contacts the ground, this helps lessen the concussive effect of the hoof hitting the ground and offers some protection to the joints. Steel shoes have this effect to a greater degree. Rubber doesn't and this isn't a good thing in the long term which may be why the use of rubber shoes hasn't taken off.

Also, as far as I know, glue-one rubber shoes are expensive, have to be put on in perfect conditions (dry hoof, dry environment, horse not turned out whilst the adhesive dries) and tend not to stay on well when the horse is exposed to wet ground. The only nail-on rubber shoes I know of are steel with rubber coating, so you don't really get any benefit as far as I can tell.

[OlavS]

Bebe, there are several of rubber shoes that are nailed on, and most are rubber all the way through (like the transparent one in one of my previous posts). The rubber coated metal shoes (at least the ones I've found) are designed to absorb shock, so should definately have a benefit for horses that do fast work on hard surfaces. But in the joints, not the pump action of the hoof.

I cannot see how the poor grip that metal shoes offer on tarmac can be a good thing. I certainly don't believe that slippage has anything to do with protecting the joints or as a shock absorber. It merely makes you tense up to control and minimise the limb's range of movements, which leads to stiffness.

If the rubber offered too much grip the manufacturers could use a harder rubber compound and reduce grip and improve wear rate instantly.

[Bebe]

You don't want a great deal of slippage and maybe that's the wrong word, I just can't think of a better one at this minute. You can't tell that an unshod hoof moves once it's hit the ground, it's a matter of mm but it is present. The amount of slippage that a shod hoof has on the roads is too much, hence the use of road nails, etc. I just don't think that rubber shoes provide a happy medium. If they did, we'd see them being used much more.

I'm not sure how a rubber shoe can help with the pump action of the foot either, they're still going to raise the sole & frog off the floor.

There's also the rate of wear, my understanding is that they don't last very long on a horse that is in regular work on hard surfaces. Whilst I don't necessarily think that this is a bad thing in that owners would be forced to have their horse shod more frequently, which would mean the hoof was balanced on a more regular basis, you'd still have the problems of multiple nail holes weakening the horn if you used nail on shoes and the cost factor may be too much for many owners.

[OlavS]

Originally posted by Bebe
I just don't think that rubber shoes provide a happy medium. If they did, we'd see them being used much more.

I'm not sure how a rubber shoe can help with the pump action of the foot either, they're still going to raise the sole & frog off the floor.

There's also the rate of wear, my understanding is that they don't last very long on a horse that is in regular work on hard surfaces.

Some synthetic shoes cover the frog, so they just relay the pressure. But to my understaing the pump action comes (at least in part) from the sideways expansion of the hoof, which is prevented only with metal shoes.

I am certain that synthetic materials can be (and are) made very wear resistant while offering grip. I know some rubber shoes are made from the same basic material as rollerblade wheels. They come in different grip levels. You normally trade off grip for wear rate, though, but there are always new materials available with ever increasing longevity for a given amount of grip.

If the shoes don't last at least 5-6 weeks then I agree, that's a good enough reason not to use them. But so far that's only speculation. Sure, the manufacturers claim that they'll last 2 shoeings before replacing (some claim to have used a pair for 7 months, and only had to replace them as the nail went through the hole, not because of overal wear). I don't suppose there's anyone out there in the land of NR with first hand experience? :D

[Pink's lady]

bebe has a very valid point about slippage when walking. However, there is the obvious difference between slippage and sliding.

The slight 'scuffing' is really important for shock absortion and without it the3 joints are severly jarred. It becomes really obvious if you ever see un unshod hoof walking on grass. My horse has really big unshod feet and there is always an extra 'rim' a little in front of the original foot placing, where her feet have slipped. This happens even on really dry, non-slippy grass.

The slippage in metal shoes isn't particluary bad (thats what causes the shoes to wear down mostly) but I've heard that it's a big problem with rubber boots etc that have too much grip on the roads etc.

Synthetic material shoes sound as if they should be the answer to all the problem but I'm sceptical. If the rubber (or plastic) is hard enough to be durable and not have too much sticky-ness, how can they be flexible enough to allow hoof expantion? Which basically defeats the purpose of them. Especially the shoes that have bars across them - there is no-way that these can expand.


I'm not sure how a rubber shoe can help with the pump action of the foot either, they're still going to raise the sole & frog off the floor.

Ok,it's probably my fault that people have got the impression that a shod horse doesn't have the pump action without the frog touching the ground.

Actually, in a shod the horse, the pump action of the frog lowering is almost as good in an un-shod horse, It's the lack of expansion and the fact that the frog is much narrower and smaller(due to lack of wieght bearing and being able to expand) than it shoud be, that causes problems.

The main consern that I have regarding the frog not touching the ground is the change in weight bearing surface. In an unshod hoof, the frog carries a large amount of weight, but obviously doesn't in the shod hoof.

Which means that all the horses weight is carried through the wall of the hoof, and therefore onto the lamina (the structure that attatches the hoof wall to the bone)

I would imagine that this has serious reprocussions on horses with laminitis.

[Gill]

The original reason for taking Erry barefoot last year was laminitis. She has now made a complete recovery to soundness because her feet were allowed to grow back and wear naturally. They are straight and hard as nails.

If you read Pete Rameys excellent book on keeping horses barefoot then there are many examples of completely foundered horses restored to health by good trimming, diet, and gradual build up of work.

So laminitis is certainly not a reason for keeping shoes on horses, probably quite the reverse actually.

[dizzy_mel]

my mare isnt shod, she even does light roadwork without a problem ...

she has very hard feet although you have to keep an eye they dont wear down to much, my farrier checks hers every 3 weeks when he is on the yard for other horses....

however she will be shod soon as she is to event therefore in her training she will undertake more road work and will need them...

but im putting off shoeing her as long as possible its the best for her , so long as she doesnt have any problems ... its best !

[Pink's lady]

So laminitis is certainly not a reason for keeping shoes on horses, probably quite the reverse actually.

Sorry, thats what I meant. I don't think I put it across very well.

Meant that if they have shoes on, the frog doesn't touch the ground and all the weight is on the walls. This isn't good for lamimnitc animals - they're better off without shoes so they can carry weight on their frogs as well.

[OlavS]

Originally posted by Pink's lady
If the rubber (or plastic) is hard enough to be durable and not have too much sticky-ness, how can they be flexible enough to allow hoof expantion? Which basically defeats the purpose of them. Especially the shoes that have bars across them - there is no-way that these can expand. Of course they can expand, that's the whole idea. I can give a looong explanation why, but I think I've waffled on too much as it is :o

I can see how the scuffing is important on a hard surface, it dissipates energy and (if barefoot) helps trim the hoof the truly natural way ;)

Maybe rubber simply can't be made hard enough and therefore remain too grippy, or that when they do become hard enough to allow scuffing they no longer expand to an appreciable amount, become too expensive to manufacture or last much too short of long.

Sorry, I *will* shut up about this now. :o

Back on to topic: I have heard that barefoot horses have much better/faster recovery from laminitis than shod horses. The blood circulation is better, and of course there are no forces working on the hoof wall as the horse stands.
However, I've yet to hear of someone who would rip the shoes off a laminitic horse...

[Pink's lady]

OlavS - Thats interesting that you've not heard of taking the shoes off in laminitic horse. Is that just possibly in Norway?

I know that every single horse I've seen with laminitis have had their shoes of asap. I've also seen the horses having the shoes put on back to front - open toe shoeing, so the pressure is taken off the toes.

There's many different ways of dealing with things in different countries.


I have a Norwegain vet student over to stay here in Edinburgh last year and she said that no-one puts hoof oil on their horses feet because they know it's bad for them. Is that generally true, or just for her area?

[OlavS]

I knew I should have phrased that more prescisely :o

I have read that barefoot horses recover much faster from laminitis, and thought that it would be a great idea to remove the shoes if a shod horse got laminitis. But I was told that normally you wouldn't. I think it had something to do with severity. If the horse had mild laminitis the person wouldn't introduce additional sorefootedness by removing the shoes. I can't remember who told me though, only that I was surprised at the answer after reading so much great stuff about barefooted horses' recovery from injuries, especially laminitis. Sorry. :(

What if a horse is mildly laminitic (something about a pulse being "sharp"/hard??) would the shoes come off straight away?

As for hoof oil this is my understanding of what people do over here. Most paint some black thing on either the outside or inside of the hoof (or both) every now and then. Apparently it keeps the hooves moist, or protected from wee or something. Others say that it's like applying paint - all you do is seal the hoof, preventing it from gaining natural moisture on its own, and it causes the hoof to dry out. Or something like that. I think everyone at my yard use hoof oil but as you can tell I haven't asked why :o Just figured they were happy to paint another 4 nails :rolleyes: ;)

[Megans mum]

well I have read all the threads with interest including looking at all the sites recomended' I have had all my 4 horses bare foot for over 2 yrs now and I can honestly say that they are all better in one way or another' one of them Storm my gelding has had arthritis for the last 12 yrs and was always club footed on his hind leg' since being bare foot his foot looks normal and he does not favour the leg at all, he used to trip on his front feet which the blacksmith attempted to correct eventually saying ' it is just him' he hasn't tripped since being bare foot' my little mare who is prone to lamintiis was always shoes short showing the white line at the toe of her front feet' since being bare foot ' no sign of the white line and no laminitis either' the other two are a youngster who has never had shoes and a brood mare who has been unshod for 5 yrs' they all go over roads and tracks most days' I certainly would not shoe them again' ;)

[Yann]

I agree, this is a really interesting thread:)

With what's been said I can now fully understand the idea behind not picking the feet out too often, whilst it's not the same as the function of an unshod foot, I can picture that a shoe packed with earth will spread the ground pressure over more of the foot. The NB shoes my horse has on have ridges behind the toe which are designed help hold it in. Am I barking up the right tree here?
The full weight of the horse will only bear fully on the hoof walls when working on a road or similar hard surface. With all this in mind what is the reason for frogs being trimmed above the plane of the shoe? There must be some reason for it?

Gem, the little pony we put front shoes on suffers from laminitis. We were in a bit of a cleft stick though, she needed the work to help avoid it but was getting too sore to manage. Fortunately she only had one more brief episode once the shoes were on and has been fine ever since (touch wood...).

[Bebe]

I can picture that a shoe packed with earth will spread the ground pressure over more of the foot. The NB shoes my horse has on have ridges behind the toe which are designed help hold it in. Am I barking up the right tree here?

Yep, NB shoes are designed to hold earth in the cleft of the frog to help spread pressure across the sole. The idea is that you don't pick the hooves out as often, just check for stones & manure and remove these as necessary but leave it alone if you have nice "clean" dirt.

Interestingly Bebe's hind hooves (which look fab now, so chuffed with them) hardly ever collect dirt in them. They're self-cleaning now, this seemed to coincide with the concavity returning. Her fronts aren't yet but they're not concave either, though I think they're starting to go that way (not sure if it's just wishful thinking though).

No idea why farriers trim the frog above the plane of the hoof, you'd have to ask. According to all the reading I've done the ideal is to have a credit card thickness of hoof wall (at the heels) above the frog, so just a couple of mm's. This allows for the frog to achieve ground contact as the hoof expands and clear the ground as it contracts. Even if a farrier trims this way the effect is lost when a shoe is put on so we really ought to be seeing shod horses with big frogs, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Megans mum]

it is a very interesting subject' this none shoeing' I don't know all the answers but I do think that to go bare foot you have to be patient and not expect things to go right all the time' I self trim mine with the blacksmith on hand iff i need advice' I look at them every day and when I see a crack or flare starting then it can be attented too' the frog touches the floor most of the time as far as I can see with mine and since being bare foot the frogs have expanded a lot' I only clean the feet out occasionly and then spray with blue spray just to be sure they are clean in all the cracks as the ground is so muddy just now' It is everyones own decision to go bare foot and is not an easy option' you need to keep an eye on the horse all the time to make sure they are comfortable at the beginning' I did try boots on one of mine for a while but couldn't keep them on so left them off and cut down on the stony tracks for a while' we still go through tender times when the weather changes' like from very hot and dry to wet and muddy' you just have to work more with the horse but I find it is much easier now and the horses are so much happier on their feet' without shoes' also I just hate the thought of nailing iron on to their feet'

[MelanieD]

My horse is shod but she has frogs that would look more normal on a barefoot horse. I have an unusual farrier (for this area anyway) in that the way he trims seems very similar to a barefoot trim, but with shoes! I've never seen him trim the frogs. Roxy's frogs are huge, she's just lost a shoe only two weeks after being shod and her frogs are below the level of her heels, I suspect they do manage to contact the ground when she's just been shod.

Fatty had quite a few problems with her feet from previous useless farrier, underrun heels, long toes, too long feet overall, flat feet. Since she's been shod by nice new farrier (on 4th set of shoes now) underrun heels are sorted, toes rasped back to a sensible length, and her flat feet are sorting themselves out quite nicely. She's sound on most surfaces when she looses a shoe, particularly big pointy stones do get her but nothing else.

I'm generally all for barefoot but madam needs shoes for now due to a really bad crack (she may be able to go barefoot once the really messed up bit at the bottom, partly caused by previous farrier's lame attempts to rasp across the crack far too deeply, has grown out). It's been quite interesting to see how much a correct trim can acheive even with shoes still nailed on.

I don't pick her feet out every day, check for stones and if none then pick out properly about once a week, so maybe this has helped her feet as well.

[Jamey]

I'm very interested in this subject but am unsure about the correct way to go barefoot from being shod. Both my two are currently kept shod and do quite a bit of roadwork, if I were to just take their shoes off, how would they cope on the roads with the change. Due to the boggy, quite high clay content of our fields, they both have quite soft feet. My farrier states that their feet are in good condition and that my youngster's feet in particular are very good (although he does tend to lose shoes). His front feet grow very quickly and need a trim every five weeks, he also has bruising due to his recent fondness for weaving.

On the hoof oil debate I have only this to contribute .....
I oil the undersides and outsides twice a week during the winter and not at all (or just the outside if we are in a show) during the summer. Our fields are terribly waterlogged at the moment and I've found the horses feet are getting too soft, so I oil to prevent too much moisture getting to the hoof.

[Megans mum]

Hi Jamie I was shod for years but wasn't satisfied that It was right for my chaps' the cracks that develope are usually caused by the hoof flareing' that is the only way it can go iff it flares ' it cracks then eventually breaks off' how old is the youngster? iff his feet grow fast and he loses shoes then I would think he would be great without shoes' mine do road work and tracks' at first when I took the big lads shoes off he picked his way but I just took it slowly and his feet are great now' 2 yrs on' his feet did split up the join between the inner and outer hoof but iff you keep the outer hoof shorter than the inner it sorts itself out' I am going on one of KC Lapiers courses next year so I will be more clued up but I am confident when dealing with my own 4 horses feet' I don't oil them at all cause they need the mosture' mine are in a very boggy field at the moment but their feet are fine' I would not go back to shoes anyway' but it is up to every one what they do as it is a committment and takes a lot of work and dedication at first' I don't think it makes any difference wether the feet are dark or white either' I have a yearling who is white legged and her feet grow fast but she is coping with limited road work all ready' {not ridden of course]

[Bebe]

Jamey, how your horses would cope is anyones guess, it's very much an individual thing. If they do have soft hooves preparation with Keratex Hoof Hardener for a few weeks prior to removing shoes can help, it definitely did for my mare.

Hoof oil will seal moisture from the outside but can prevent the hoof from regulating it's internal moisture content which is why it's not really recommended for barefoot horses. Keratex Hoof Gel (I don't sell the stuff, honest) will prevent the hoof from becoming waterlogged without stopping it from "breathing". There's sound scientific basis behind this product and the company are very helpful if you phone them up for more info.

Bebe had to wear boots for a lot of last winter when she went barefoot and I didn't attempt any roadwork with her at all. This year (she's been barefoot for 3 months or so) I only used boots a couple of times during the first week or so.On Saturday I completed a 90 minute hack, 50% of which was on the road, 25% on stony tracks and the rest on mud. Completely barefoot. She was sound as a pound and absolutely fine yesterday too.