Useless at circles

[LittleD]

Last nights lesson went from ok to useless, I call it a lesson it was actually me and my horse on our own in the indoor school!

I can turn her in walk on a totally loose rein with my legs we can do "teapot handles", circles, figures of eight all with no rein, but when it comes to trot I am totally useless, I ask for trot, she's not easy to get or keep going but as soon as I take up a contact she sets her jaw, swings her head and generally just says no, we ended up trotting wherever she took me, I got so frustrated that I made the two big mistakes of crossing the right rein over her neck and leaning forward and ended up losing my left stirrup - I know its me because two friends of mine ride her in trot, extended trot etc and she behaves much better for them, they did say that she tried it on though and as I've only been riding a short time compared to them I am not as confident at correcting her - her teeth are fine, she has a brand new bridle so I am pretty sure she not in any discomfort. Anyway after that moan can someone please tell me step by step aids for a 20m circle on a right rein??? I'll tell you what she does - I ask for trot take up a contact on both reins begin to open the right rein and she turn her head to the left therefore making my left rein contact disappear it's at that point that I lose it, cause I don't know what to do the get it back!! Also decided on getting some good lessons starting soon but if I could just get some circles right in the meantime it would make me feel a little less hopeless thanks in anticipation!!

[laura jeanne]

What I've been told is - instead of opening the right rein, use a direct rein, that is just pull the right rein straight back toward your right hip. This will prevent her from turning left on you!

It sounds also like you are letting go of the contact when you open the right rein or she would not be able to turn her head to the left.

[cvb]

don't spose you have a swizzle chair to play with ?

If not, try a normal chair but its a slightly different feeling...

Sit on chair - not too far back - with feet flat on floor. Upper arms softly by your body, elbows bent and lower arm and hands in riding position.

Look straight ahead - thats "north"....

Now, without taking you feet off the floor, turn - from your seat - to look at north east (to the right). Don't change anything other than the way the chair seat is facing - your eye line should now be looking north east (forward and right).

What happens to the rest of you ? Notice what happens to your hips, your weight, your hands.

Come back to "north" - check everything is straight - then turn the other way to go "north west". Again note what happens.

Now - if your arms stay against your side and your hands ahead of you, you should notice that without doing anything "extra" your "inside" hand has moved out and "back" (around the arc) slightly. You have not given away the "outside" hand but it has released forward slightly to allow the corner.

Your inside hip is slightly ahead, your outside hip slightly behind.

(Horse riding from your office chair by cvb !)

[clipclop]

Use your legs more for steering. If you are on the right rein ans falls in use you right leg to push her out. If she fall out of the circle use your left leg to push her back onto the circle.

[amandal]

cvb - that's a great way of explaining, look forward to more riding in the office chair explanations.

My circles tend to go a bit egg shaped if I don't concentrate - the only way I can get circular circles going where I want is to look where I want to go, the effect is the same as cvb so aptly explained, everything moves to where it should !

[laura jeanne]

cvb, I like that explanation. I'm going to try it next time. I have to be really careful not to let go too much with the outside rein.

[Tangle]

Originally posted by LittleD
as soon as I take up a contact she sets her jaw, swings her head and generally just says no
Fully agree with cvb's office chair riding :D. However, I'm not sure it will work untill you solve the above problem. By setting her jaw like that she's putting herself in control and making your aids ineffective, as you've discovered. If you can get her jaw to relax, the rest of her should follow :).

You say you can ride her in walk on no rein - I'm wondering if this is in some way related to the problem. Can you get the same results in walk if you have a contact? By taking up a contact when you move into trot you might be sending her a mixed message "go forwards, but I'm holding you in more now".

I'd try and get her responsive with a light contact in walk - is her jaw relaxed? If it is, try a trot - it should stay nice and relaxed, even if only a couple of strides. If she starts to set her jaw come back to walk, get her relaxed and try again (and again, and again, and again...... ;)). You should be able to get a little further with each trot. Once you can get a nice consistent relaxed trot, circles should be much easier as she'll be ready and listening. (Well, that's the theory anyway :p)

As a backup, have you tried asking your friends what they do? Or can you watch them and work it out?

Good luck :)

[imabrit_us]

But what do you do w/ a horse that just doesn't respect the inside leg?

Like you I ride eggs. Actually, I can ride a creditable circle on Tommy, Stan and Nimbus. Otis falls in on the return curve of any circle we ride . . . whether we do it at C, A, E or B in the school. We circle fine from the starting point to the mid-point or apex of the circle . . . and then we fall in. I suspect it might be partly b/c I lean in anticipating the circle . . . but he doesn't respect the inside leg at all . . . nor does he respect the whip AT ALL! Give him a reminder w/ it and he barely blinks . . .

What to do ?

Other than not leaning in . . . or maybe as well as, as I'm working on that and it only partially works.

N

[clipclop]

For a horse that doesn't listen to your legs you need to go back a step and reastablish the basics to listen to the leg.

Only basic movements in walk asking him to leg yield. If de dousn't listen then use the leg even more, if still no respsonse try the whip, iff still no response, try a tip I had from an old instructor, crack your whip on your boot to make a noise, should send him away from it hopefully.

Sorry my speeling is going all wonky it's past my bedtime.

[LittleD]

Thanks for the suggestions everybody!

Tangle, after I sat down and thought about my post what you suggested suddenly came to me, if we're walking on a completely long rein then I SUDDENLY take up a contact for trot she's going to think "You what, STOP and GO at the same time are you kidding?"

Yesterday she was so relaxed (in walk) that several time she lowered her head to the ground her nose almost touching and let out a long deep sigh.

But as soon as I ask for trot, at first, she goes straight off my leg then virtually stops, swings her head and ends up all over the place, she almost turned a hairpin yesterday not easy for a horse 17hh plus and 700kg.

I am probably a too hands sensitive rider, not wanting to hurt her mouth, but from all the replies it looks as though I need to start using more contact at all times to get her relaxed and not shocked by my sudden request for contact, she is great with leg aids and will respond almost immediately to them, it's obviously my hands that's the problem, so on to the next step, any suggestions about how to go about getting her relaxed please, is is just a case of using a bit more contact each time and getting her used to it? And now the difficult one how much is too much and how little is too little - what should it feel like?

How you're all going to put a feeling into words beats me, thanks again everyone at least I've now got a starting point!

[Wally]

Sounds like you are saying trot with your legs and stop with your balance! She goes into trot then back to walk becasue you are not truly in balance with her and she is simply doing waht she thinks you want.

Make sure your balance is up with her and not behind the movement.

[Mossy]

Just a thought rather that going for a full circle in trot, just do an arc and get it right, then walk again and try another arc. The arc can get longer as you get more confident until one day you have joined all the bits and it is a circle.

[laura jeanne]

LittleD

I've been thinking about how long my reins should be also. When I'm walking in my lesson, I tend to let the reins go pretty loose and then when I want to go to a faster gait, I take them up quite a bit. So my horse knows that as soon as I am taking up more rein, she just goes into trot or canter without me even telling her to. (Harry gave me some advice about this).

A few weeks ago, we had a substitute instructor and she told us to keep the same (basically) rein length while you are working with the horse so that first, you are not fiddling with the reins all the time, and second, you are ready for any transitions. She had us walk, stop, trot, etc. as soon as she told us to- we were not supposed to need any adjustments!

My horse always tries to pull the reins out of my hands so that gradually they get way too long. I can't seem to keep them at one length. I just mentioned to my instructor last week that I need to tie some knots in them (sort of joking) and she said that was the baby way and I just needed to concentrate on it. Gee thanks!!!

Of course there were breaks in the lesson where we walked on a loose rein so the horses could stretch.

[horsehelp]

have you tried bieng lunged??

[Tangle]

Hi LittleD,

Forgot to say in previous post, but one thing that occurred to me is that your position and aids in walk must be pretty good if you can ride with no reins and still have good control :D.

I think Wally may be onto something with your balance - if you get a couple of nice trot strides but then it all goes to pot, could it be you're just struggling to stay with her for more than those couple of strides? I find it really hard to maintain a good trot sometimes, especially if I'm trying to sit it. *********'s lunging suggestion might help you a lot.

Contact and rein length - you're right not easy to explain, but I'll try ;). I think you might actually find it easier than you think, at least in walk. Your mare is already listening to your other aids so you're not relying on the reins for steering, brakes or balance (yours or hers :p).

What I've been taught is that you want the lightest possible contact - so light the reins almost look loose without being washing lines. You can experiment with a friend: ask your friend to hold the bit while you take up the reins. See how little contact (thinking "feel" instead of "contact" might help get the idea) you can have and still be aware of your friend "mouthing" the bit. THAT's how light a contact you should be riding on.

Once you've got that I agree with LauraJeanne - you shouldn't adjust the rein length or you'll be sending your horse mixed messages.

Sorry, that's a really long reply - and I'm not sure how much of it will make sense :(. Hopefully some. If not, let me know and I'll try again :)

[cvb]

imabrit_us

Sounds like you might be a littl TOO focused on the end point of your circle ?

How about trying this - ride a diamond instead of a circle. One point at C (or A) and opposite at X, then the oter corners are 4m up from the quarter markers. Ride to each "corner" in straight lines. (Of course in practice you have to aim a little before the marker, or you will be turning "late).

Now, remember where your corners are, and "bulge" the straight lines into 4 arcs - which just happen to make up a circle !

If you are in a lesson so can't do the diamond, then simply imagine the 4 "corners" of the circle and ride to them. If he tries to slope off back to A or C, make sure that you ride through the middle "corner" first

The other thing you can do, if the horse is up to it, is ride 10m circles at each of the "corners" i.e. 10m at A/C, the ride round the arc to next "corner", ride 10m circle, and so on.

[LittleD]

Just to update you all on this one, and maybe help others with the same problem I had.

Remember my useless at circles problem, decided on some lessons so that an experienced person could see where I was going wrong.

First stirrups were too long so were shortened, two holes mounting side, one hole right hand side.

Rubber bands put in place where contact should be (a whole 10 inches closer to the bit than my usual gentle hold and I worried I was pulling her mouth about).

"Sit back, lean back, that's better, you're sitting up straight now"

Two sharp taps with the inside leg and hold on the the outside rein don't let it go (actually held it and held onto the neckstrap at the same time so she couldn't pull it out of my hand)

Look around the circle the way you want to go, pull back with the inside rein and give it when on the straight bits.

And guess what, we managed two circuits on both reins and a couple of circles thrown in without so much as a head tossing and jaw setting session, my newly found "strong" contact and leg position made her listen to me, she was even puffing and blowing a bit when we finished (and I was, the pair of us have'nt done this much work all in one go before) can't believe we did it , going to book a lesson every week.

Another tip I was given: hold the reins equally and only as far apart as the bit so that the reins lie along her neck.

Still couldn't resist just checking that the corners of her mouth were ok when I untacked her because I hadn't used this much contact before - they were fine, not even a ruffled hair!! I smiled all the way home:)

[Mossy]

First stirrups were too long so were shortened, two holes mounting side, one hole right hand side.
were you riding uneven to start with or has she asked you to ride uneven now? Glad you have success but beware of too short a contact. It can cause it's own problems.

[LittleD]

Mossy,

I think the left stirrup had stretched due to that being the side most of my weight goes into when mounting.

What problems:( ? To be honest, It's probably not that short a contact to someone who has been riding for years but it was for novice me because the contact I have been used to taking up is only about a foot or so from the buckle and I've been using more leg than hand so it was a complete re-positioning feeling!